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JNC Lyon

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16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« on: February 20, 2012, 05:27:18 PM »
After playing Atlantic City this weekend, I came away with the conclusion that the new 16th is a phenomenal golf hole.  The diagonal tee shot is testing and demands decision-making, the angles are set up well, and the green site is sharp and very well done.  I dare someone to disagree with me!
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Joe Bausch

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 05:41:12 PM »
After playing Atlantic City this weekend, I came away with the conclusion that the new 16th is a phenomenal golf hole.  The diagonal tee shot is testing and demands decision-making, the angles are set up well, and the green site is sharp and very well done.  I dare someone to disagree with me!

Who do you think you are, Robert Conrad?!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 06:49:13 PM »
After playing Atlantic City this weekend, I came away with the conclusion that the new 16th is a phenomenal golf hole.  The diagonal tee shot is testing and demands decision-making, the angles are set up well, and the green site is sharp and very well done.  I dare someone to disagree with me!

John,
 
  I think, from my impressions, all of the holes along the marsh are good holes.  I admitted to being nervous on all the tee shots--blocked is death, but there is a bit more room to play.  I wonder how a land breeze would affect the play of the holes, maybe have to start the ball way left to the point where it would be unsafe.  Having said that, I like that, as well as 13 and 14, that are go/no go decisions.  There is a lot of trouble around, but there is a safe way to play the hole as well--witness you went for the green on 14 with driver, I went left-center to the fairway with 3-wood.  Or, Joe and myself on 13.  Some really good holes for matchplay, and there is more room to play than it looks.  Can't wait to go back.  Forecast is for close to 60 on Friday. 
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2012, 07:03:39 PM »
Someone was really going for the green on #14 at Atlantic City?  I never anticipated that would be a good play for anyone.

I'm surprised [yet pleased] that #16 was the subject of the thread.  It never struck me as being one of the standout holes.

JNC Lyon

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 07:09:59 PM »
Someone was really going for the green on #14 at Atlantic City?  I never anticipated that would be a good play for anyone.

I'm surprised [yet pleased] that #16 was the subject of the thread.  It never struck me as being one of the standout holes.

14 was straight downwind on Saturday.  Somebody who hits the ball farther than I do could have gotten very close to the green from the tee.  I really like 14 as well.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 07:13:31 PM »
Someone was really going for the green on #14 at Atlantic City?  I never anticipated that would be a good play for anyone.

I'm surprised [yet pleased] that #16 was the subject of the thread.  It never struck me as being one of the standout holes.

14 was straight downwind on Saturday.  Somebody who hits the ball farther than I do could have gotten very close to the green from the tee.  I really like 14 as well.

That's a common wind there, and it was one of the main reasons I re-routed the course.  In the previous version, there were three consecutive par-4 holes at 14, 15 and 16, each of them 380-400 yards ... all three of them very nondescript when played downwind.  [On top of which, they might well have been underwater at this time of year.  We filled those fairways by three or four feet.]

Rory Connaughton

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2012, 07:46:39 PM »
John

   I agree that 16 is a very strong hole.  Homer Alert:  The angle of the tee shot reminds me of 7 at Lancaster a bit where a power fade can go for ages but the dreaded straight ball miss is penalized pretty substantially.  The other reason it reminds me of 7 is that it is playable off the tee with a variety of clubs. Certainly the green was reachable saturday even if you teed off with a hybrid.

Saturday was the perfect wind for 14.  I think a player of John's length could have reached the green with a cut if aimed properly. Maybe even three wood.  Two very enjoyable holes.

Tim Martin

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 07:55:53 PM »
After playing Atlantic City this weekend, I came away with the conclusion that the new 16th is a phenomenal golf hole.  The diagonal tee shot is testing and demands decision-making, the angles are set up well, and the green site is sharp and very well done.  I dare someone to disagree with me!

I had very different 2nd shots the two times I played despite hitting it solidly both times. I took much more of a chicken route the 1st time around and played considerably left of where I hit it on Saturday. I love the hole and the options that are presented.Oh and I wouldn`t dare disagree with you. ;D

astavrides

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 08:43:52 PM »
After playing Atlantic City this weekend, I came away with the conclusion that the new 16th is a phenomenal golf hole.  The diagonal tee shot is testing and demands decision-making, the angles are set up well, and the green site is sharp and very well done.  I dare someone to disagree with me!

Who do you think you are, Robert Conrad?!

Timely reference, Joe. About 10 years before JNC was born.  :-)

Joe Bausch

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 08:57:06 PM »
After playing Atlantic City this weekend, I came away with the conclusion that the new 16th is a phenomenal golf hole.  The diagonal tee shot is testing and demands decision-making, the angles are set up well, and the green site is sharp and very well done.  I dare someone to disagree with me!

Who do you think you are, Robert Conrad?!

Timely reference, Joe. About 10 years before JNC was born.  :-)

JNC was a history major at Palmolive.   He must know his WW2 history.  :)

I remember well watching Pappy Boyington in Baa Baa Black Sheep.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

archie_struthers

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 09:33:32 PM »
 ::) ??? :P

I replied to the Greate Bay thread before  seeing  Tom's post, always nice to have him aboard. I'd argue that #16  was quite a bit more strategic than the other two holes, as the green was quite challenging and the water was everywhere, or so it seemed when things got tight  . It was really soggy though, and plenty of arguments over "plugged" vs lost balls no doubt could occur.

I do miss the 18th hole , where you could make eagle or bogey depending on wind and how much you could bite off the massive  waste bunkers on the dogleg of this par five finisher . You might say it was a 4 1/2  for good players, but lots of players finished well, a good thing for the Grill Room , which was world famous . Lots of celebrities and famous golfers frequented AC , a tribute to Leo and the Fraser families development of the club. It just was a hub of social and political history , particularly before casino gambling.

The renovation remains quite controversial locally. Lots of emotional angst  regarding the changing of a "classic" course that hosted multiple USGA Championships and the home of golf here at the shore. Tom can probably comment more to what Arthur Goldberg and the casino desired to see accomplished here. The purchase of the club certainly changed the golf scene here forever!

« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 09:53:29 PM by archie_struthers »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 10:30:20 PM »
Archie:

Had no idea that the work we did at A.C.C.C. was still "controversial", but some people just never let go.  I think it was really the decision to take the club private that was the most controversial part, and always found it weird that the Frasers took the money and then stoked the fires.  But I guess they were a lot more connected than I'll ever be.

I was hesitant to change the 18th hole from a par five, because it was a famous hole, even though it also seemed like a pretty weak finish to me.  Eventually, I realized it had to happen if we were going to introduce the new 14th & 15th, and change direction down that back nine stretch, which the new owners did not like; the new 14th green and 15th tee made it unsafe to keep #18 tee so far back. 

The one thing nobody knows is that the new tidal marsh area we created on #14 [that is all dug out, providing the fill for holes 13, 15, and 16] was the key to getting our permits to do all the work along the marsh.  The state was very much against the idea of letting us work along the marsh until they realized that we were actually CREATING two or three acres of new marsh habitat as a result of our plan; that change was like Moses parting the Red Sea as far as the permitting agencies were concerned.

The one other change mentioned that was pretty much mandated by the client was shortening the second hole.  It was a great long par-4 originally, but at some point they put in a residential road crossing about 50 yards in front of the green to get to a couple of houses built near the marsh, and Mr. Goldberg thought it was both unsafe [casinos don't like liability issues] and interruptive to the privacy of the golf experience.  So, we shortened #2, and lengthened #5 into that same space to try and make up for it.  The green on #5 is completely different than the old green for #2, though.  The only greens where we tried to replicate the old contours intact were #3, #6, #8, #9, and #11 [the former #12 green].

archie_struthers

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 11:52:18 PM »
 ;D ;) 8)

Tom,

Loved the 2nd green , and 18 just had so many memories of great matches won and lost.  

Actually Atlantic City CC was "the club" here at the shore for many years. It had the vistas , the food was quite good , and the clubhouse still is great for golfers, particularly male golfers . Leo Fraser built a legacy, and was a real living legend . . The place had so much golf history because of how  Leo and how Atlantic City proper developed over the years.  It was an open town , as shown in Boardwalk Empire, with gambling , drinking and everything else. Seaview had all the millionaires , Atlantic City  CC  had everyone else.  Leo's brother "Sonny" was a great player and politician , and brokered the deal that got Leo Fraser the course in the first place. When Atlantic City proper waned , the Country Club still prospered , and remained a constant memory of how it used to be. The "hotel" at the CC housed many disenfranchised golfers over the years and inveterate characters like George Low spent whole summers at the club , shuttling between the golf course and the Atlantic  City Race Track . It was an action place ruled by one of golf's most traditional benefactors, a complete anachronism .

It is more the loss of the institution that fired up the locals, not your work there.  They lost their home club,  and a home away from home for many Philadelphians.  The Fraser family took more heat than anyone for selling , particularly to a casino. When Park Place kicked almost everyone out of the club immediately, it wiped out a way of life for over 1500 members , many of whom were big movers and shakers in Philly and AC. I was never a member , too poor , but lots of people were.  

As you may know, I'm a big fan . Can't begin to tell you how nice it was of you to invite me to play in your tournament and talk golf. Best of luck and hope to share some AC stories over some cold beer soon ! Talk soon , Archie.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 12:05:55 AM by archie_struthers »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2012, 07:39:15 AM »
;D ;) 8)

Tom,

Loved the 2nd green , and 18 just had so many memories of great matches won and lost.  

Actually Atlantic City CC was "the club" here at the shore for many years. It had the vistas , the food was quite good , and the clubhouse still is great for golfers, particularly male golfers . Leo Fraser built a legacy, and was a real living legend . . The place had so much golf history because of how  Leo and how Atlantic City proper developed over the years.  It was an open town , as shown in Boardwalk Empire, with gambling , drinking and everything else. Seaview had all the millionaires , Atlantic City  CC  had everyone else.  Leo's brother "Sonny" was a great player and politician , and brokered the deal that got Leo Fraser the course in the first place. When Atlantic City proper waned , the Country Club still prospered , and remained a constant memory of how it used to be. The "hotel" at the CC housed many disenfranchised golfers over the years and inveterate characters like George Low spent whole summers at the club , shuttling between the golf course and the Atlantic  City Race Track . It was an action place ruled by one of golf's most traditional benefactors, a complete anachronism .

It is more the loss of the institution that fired up the locals, not your work there.  They lost their home club,  and a home away from home for many Philadelphians.  The Fraser family took more heat than anyone for selling , particularly to a casino. When Park Place kicked almost everyone out of the club immediately, it wiped out a way of life for over 1500 members , many of whom were big movers and shakers in Philly and AC. I was never a member , too poor , but lots of people were.  

As you may know, I'm a big fan . Can't begin to tell you how nice it was of you to invite me to play in your tournament and talk golf. Best of luck and hope to share some AC stories over some cold beer soon ! Talk soon , Archie.


Archie:

Thanks for the reply.  I had never heard the part in your second paragraph about the club being a haven for guys like George Low ... that is indeed an anachronism, but I'm very sorry that it's gone.  Odd, too, in that you would think of all the owners to clear out such a place, a casino would be the last to do it -- but I guess the corporations that run the casinos are pretty sensitive about their image now.

Is there any club that's still got that sort of atmosphere left, anywhere?  Oddly, the one place that struck me that way 30 years ago was Sunningdale, in England ... the members liked to play for money, and found it interesting having a few of those sorts of characters around, like their old pro, Arthur Lees, or even a couple of guys on the European Tour who didn't mind giving a few strokes in a money match.  I assume those days are gone now.  But it's got to exist somewhere, doesn't it?

Mark McKeever

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2012, 09:12:09 AM »
I have to agree with John on this one.  Since the first time I played it a couple years back, I just can't get enough of this hole.  I like the options off of the tee and I tend not to think about how close the tee of 15 is to where I want to place my tee shot.  Aim at the bunkers and hit a gentle cut.  If you are more agressive off the tee, you are rewarded by having a short shot in from a better angle on the right side.  It sits perfectly in the round and can allow you to put pressure on your opponent depending on how you decide to play the hole. 

Tom, if you didnt intend on 16 being a standout hole, I say it was an awesome accident!  :)

Mark 
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Mark Fedeli

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2015, 02:39:13 PM »
I was looking back at older aerials of ACCC and noticed a very pronounced and rather idiosyncratic moat around 16 green. Does anyone have any information about it? I wasn't able to find any mentions in past threads. Tom Doak, what were your thoughts? Did you ever consider keeping it?

This is from 1995:



And this is after TD's renovation:

South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Gary Sato

Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2015, 03:02:29 PM »
I think Tom Doak is away for a few months so I don't know if he'll respond. 

Does the moat fit in with the rest of the course.  Its unique.

Mark Fedeli

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2015, 03:32:25 PM »
Does the moat fit in with the rest of the course.  Its unique.

Not really. The fact that it was so idiosyncratic is why I was a bit surprised to not find any discussion of it in other ACCC pre/post renovation discussions, and also why I wonder if TD ever considered keeping it.

The full aerial from 1995:




South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2015, 04:37:22 PM »
Mark,

I played ACCC prior to Tom Doak's work and the moat wasn't there.

It was removed sometime between 1995 and 2002.

Archie Struthers might know the history and why the moat was removed.

I happen to think it was a neat feature and would like to see it restored

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2015, 08:27:10 PM »
Wow, I've never seen that before.  That's a really cool standout feature.  Its interesting that there are bunkers on the island green too.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

archie_struthers

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2015, 09:48:06 PM »
 ??? ???

Pat  et al ......I believe the moat remained until Doaks renovation , will,send pictures to ACCC guys and ask . Pretty sure it stayed til end as we knew it , I was never a member so didn't play there all the time like many did.

Always enjoyed tournaments there , and all the great characters.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2015, 10:08:27 PM »
Thanks, Pat & Archie.

as far as how long it's been there, historicaerials.com has the moat in their 1931 aerial, but golfcoursehistories.com does not have it in theirs from 1930.

the course and surroundings are vastly different in each so it seems one aerial must be misdated. either the 1930 is earlier than it says or the 1931 is later.

the 1930 pic seems to only have 18 holes (http://golfcoursehistories.com/ACCC.html), but we know there were 27 holes as early as 1920.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2015, 10:27:11 PM »
Archie,

The history and cast of characters at ACCC has largely flown under the radar.

It was a very unique club.

I forget what year Tom reworked ACCC, but it was between 1995 and 2002 that the moat disappeared.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2015, 10:46:20 PM »
 ;D :)

He started work in 1999 , if memory serves . Just verified the moat was there right til the Doak redo via Jim Fraser and some other ex members
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 07:57:17 PM by archie_struthers »

Mark Fedeli

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Re: 16 at Atlantic City C.C.
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2015, 01:49:45 PM »
Thanks, Archie. Did they have any thoughts about it or why it was removed, especially Jim Frasier? I'm curious to know if Tom personally decided he didn't like it or if it was always planned to get the ax.

Also, does anyone have a copy of The Nature Faker handy that they can consult to see if any mention of the moat is made in there? It most certainly seems like something put in by Flynn or shortly thereafter.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

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