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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2012, 12:09:16 PM »
Tom,

What was the thought process behind two firms routing two courses on the same property at the same time?  It appears that the C&C course is mostly a large loop on the outside of the property, with your course winding around in the middle.

I’m curious as to how the process worked.  Did you start out saying:  “Ben/Bill – you get the outside and I’ll take the inside”?  Or did one group rout first and the other second?  Seems like a challenging process considering that neither firm has dealt with a situation like this before (to my knowledge).

I know your are close to Bill and Ben, but were there any moments when you said “I call that chuck of land!”, and they said “No, we want that piece!”, etc?

George,

Bill and I worked on the routing together.  We didn't want to draw a line and each keep to one side of it, because while that might have given the courses some obvious differences, neither of them would have had as much variety as what we came up with.  There is no way in the world we could have come up with the routing we did if we hadn't had so much respect for one another and been willing to let the other guy get his share of the best stuff.

Bill had started working on routing an 18-hole course on the site before I had a map.  He was skeptical about getting 36 holes onto the site, but I said I'd start trying on that, both of us understanding that would probably mean that some of the holes he had already scoped out would wind up on separate courses ... and that's what happened.  Bill's original routings were mostly in the middle of the present site; his first six holes and his 10th-13th were added to get to 36, as were my 2nd, 7th, 9th-11th, 14th, and 16th and 17th.  Some of the other holes had to be changed to make all the connections work, as well, but holes 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 15 on my Blue course are pretty much borrowed from various of Bill's original routing ideas.

I am sure Bill would have preferred not to make such a long loop around the outside of the Blue course, if we were only trying to find the best 18 holes we could on site; but we were trying to find the best 36 holes we could, and that meant that we both had to take a little bit of land that was less than ideal.  I can tell you, though, that some of the holes on that outlying land are some of the best holes on the Blue course, and I'm sure the same is going to be true of at least a couple of those first six holes on the Red.

Someone asked earlier about a Composite routing, but there really isn't one ... We had to change the connection points of some of Bill's original holes to make 36 holes work.  Our deal from the start was that if we thought going to 36 holes compromised the quality of the original 18 significantly, we would have to punt and go use another site instead, but we were both happy with the 18 holes we wound up with, and we hope that future golfers will agree that we made the right decision to put the whole 36 holes together.  Anyone who goes there is going to want to play both courses, and if you try to put together a composite there are going to be too many great holes left out.

Jim Colton

Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2012, 12:34:58 PM »
Tom,

 Does this mean that there is still room for another 18 nearby, and is this a potential add at some point down the road assuming the resort takes off?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2012, 04:10:26 PM »
Jim,

Mosaic owns tens of thousands of acres in central Florida.  They have plenty of land to build more courses there if the demand warrants.  But none of that other land has anything like the same character as the land we've been building on.

When I was interviewing for the job, they kept asking me a sort-of trick question:  if I had to work on one of the other sites, instead of the one we built on, could I build as good a course on those as the other architect would build on the "sand piles" site?  They wanted either me or Bill to show confidence in one of the other sites.  My response was that the only way anyone would build as good a course on any of the other sites was if the guy they hired for the "sand piles" site messed it up.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2012, 04:36:44 PM »

My response was that the only way anyone would build as good a course on any of the other sites was if the guy they hired for the "sand piles" site messed it up.

Ultimate Doakish...Priceless!

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2012, 04:35:50 PM »
As it's not necessarily worthy of its own thread...

The Mosaic Company today announced the selection of Interstate Hotels & Resorts as the hotel management company for its Streamsong Resort project and KemperSports as the management company for the resort's golf operations.

Congrats to Josh Lesnik and the Kemper team.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/mosaic-selects-interstate-hotels-resorts-as-manager-of-streamsongr-resort-2012-02-16


No additional news on timing:

The two golf courses and lakeside golf clubhouse -- featuring 12 guest rooms, a steakhouse restaurant, 4,400 square feet of meeting space, lounge and pro shop -- are projected to open in late 2012, providing an initial golf and meeting destination.

Opening of the main lodge and other resort amenities is planned for fall 2013.

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2012, 04:39:32 PM »
Howard:

The timing depends on the construction of the clubhouse.  It is kind of a "drive thru" clubhouse as it completely blocks access from the 18th hole on the Red course to the first tees of the two courses ... so they would have a VERY hard time opening for play before the clubhouse is finished.  They're working on the foundation now, and still hope to be finished by October, but you know how construction projects go ... late 2012 is about all they can say right now.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2012, 04:53:29 PM »


It'll be interesting to see how this works out economically.   I drove by the site a couple of weeks ago, and although the drive isn't hugely far from civilization, it has to be one on the most unimpressive drives ever.  The site is isolated in flat FL scrub land surrounded with many active strip mines (hidden behind endless forty foot high berms) and power plants and high tension lines.  The strip mining machines sure are awesomely big.  But, in the end, there is no sense of place to the site at all.  Sort of like an oasis in the middle of an industrial zone.  It'll never be confused with arriving at Bandon Dunes.  Hopefully the resort part of it will be attractive enough to keep people onsite and entertained without having to venture out into the surrounding area.  For the day tripper, the access is relatively easy from Tampa or Sarasota.

 


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2012, 08:32:00 PM »
Thanks Kalen!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2012, 07:31:27 PM »
A few new maps I stumbled over while on the Streamsong website.  


Property map



http://www.streamsongresort.com/images/stories/streamsong/News/location-map.jpg


Site plan



Lots of room for additional courses.  Jeep trail? 

http://www.streamsongresort.com/images/stories/streamsong/News/siteplan.jpg  (can magnify for closer view)
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2012, 12:45:16 PM »
Tom Doak,

This appears to be a terrific product for golf.

But, other than on GCA.com, I haven't heard much about the project, in or out of the golf world.

With the courses scheduled to open later this year and the resort/hotel next year, Mosaic seems woefully lacking in promoting the project.

When and how will the golf "world" and general public become aware of these unique golf courses and the resort ?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »


With the courses scheduled to open later this year and the resort/hotel next year, Mosaic seems woefully lacking in promoting the project.

When and how will the golf "world" and general public become aware of these unique golf courses and the resort ?

http://www.streamsongresort.com/resort-news
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2012, 02:35:35 PM »
Tom Doak,

This appears to be a terrific product for golf.

But, other than on GCA.com, I haven't heard much about the project, in or out of the golf world.

With the courses scheduled to open later this year and the resort/hotel next year, Mosaic seems woefully lacking in promoting the project.

When and how will the golf "world" and general public become aware of these unique golf courses and the resort ?

Patrick:

I've been assured by the client that they know what they are doing.  Having Kemper Sports on board now will undoubtedly help, as those guys have a fair amount of experience in generating interest in new courses.  And, we're still seven or eight months before opening -- no point in getting people too amped up before they are even taking tee times!

One thing I hope they do explore is doing promotions tying into Spring Training baseball.  The Detroit Tigers' home base is in Lakeland, which is the closest big town to the project [which is about 30 minutes due south of Lakeland] ... and there are several other teams based in the area, which just happen to belong to some of the biggest northern cities which might supply winter golfers.  Of course, that would have been much easier to pull off a few years back, when all of the baseball writers and golf writers from the major city newspapers played golf together ...

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2012, 02:42:54 PM »
Tom Doak,

This appears to be a terrific product for golf.

But, other than on GCA.com, I haven't heard much about the project, in or out of the golf world.

With the courses scheduled to open later this year and the resort/hotel next year, Mosaic seems woefully lacking in promoting the project.

When and how will the golf "world" and general public become aware of these unique golf courses and the resort ?

Patrick:

I've been assured by the client that they know what they are doing.  Having Kemper Sports on board now will undoubtedly help, as those guys have a fair amount of experience in generating interest in new courses.  And, we're still seven or eight months before opening -- no point in getting people too amped up before they are even taking tee times!

One thing I hope they do explore is doing promotions tying into Spring Training baseball.  The Detroit Tigers' home base is in Lakeland, which is the closest big town to the project [which is about 30 minutes due south of Lakeland] ... and there are several other teams based in the area, which just happen to belong to some of the biggest northern cities which might supply winter golfers.  Of course, that would have been much easier to pull off a few years back, when all of the baseball writers and golf writers from the major city newspapers played golf together ...

Having lived in Lakeland for a while I would say Tigers spring training is a rather small market to draw from. Joker Marchant stadium offers one the ability to "spread out" during a ST game unless the Yanks are in town.

Catering to the golf junkies or the corporate crowd is the greater dilemma for SS along with how to best cater to all those northerners that live nearby in the winter and have a home club in Florida (something World Woods screwed the pooch on out of the gate... you cannot give it away to ANYONE if you want some value assigned to it).
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 11:32:56 AM by Greg Tallman »

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2012, 03:59:46 PM »
Their PDF now says the golf course and clubhouse will open in December 2012. Alas, too late for this year's Dixie Cup.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2012, 04:53:54 PM »
Tom Doak,

That's about 163 driving miles from Boca Raton, Florida, so it brings the Ft Lauderdale, Boca Raton, Palm Beach population into reasonable proximity, maybe Miami as well.  Orlando, Tampa and Melbourne are much closer.

Mike Keiser proved that if you create a special product, people will travel, and, the weather in the winter in Lakeland, Fl isn't hard to take.

I plan to visit in early 2013.

Good luck,

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2012, 07:08:26 PM »
I'm thinking if the Dixie Cup makes it there in 2013, it would be a pretty full field event.  I'd love to attend one, and am guessing it'll be a great venue to make that 1st trip to Florida.

Josh_Lesnik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2012, 01:18:57 AM »
Thanks Howard.  We're excited to be on the Streamsong team.  It looks like we'll open the golf courses and the clubhouse in December.  I guess there's only 3 places in the world where Tom and Bill have courses close or even next to each other.  Bandon, Barnbougle and now Streamsong. This is the only one where thier courses are intertwined and it sounds like they actually collaborated.  As you can imagine, the result is very interesting.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2012, 11:29:48 AM »
Thanks Howard.  We're excited to be on the Streamsong team.  It looks like we'll open the golf courses and the clubhouse in December.  I guess there's only 3 places in the world where Tom and Bill have courses close or even next to each other.  Bandon, Barnbougle and now Streamsong. This is the only one where thier courses are intertwined and it sounds like they actually collaborated.  As you can imagine, the result is very interesting.


Josh -

Congrats on another quality property for KemperSports. As you've read, there's certainly very strong interest on GCA as well. 

Can you say when Streamsong will start to take tee times and reservations for the guest rooms in the clubhouse?  I'm definitely interested in coming down in December.  It should make for a good escape from the start of another Chicago winter. Thanks. 

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Josh_Lesnik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2012, 12:51:36 AM »
Howard, I'm not sure when we'll be taking reservations.  I'll look into it and get back to you.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2012, 04:18:25 PM »
Thanks, Josh.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2012, 04:48:16 PM »
My apologies if these questions have been asked and answered before, but what will the turf be like?

Is the goal links-like play?

Also, will there be caddies?

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2012, 01:56:06 PM »
Orlando Sentinel reporter visits Streamsong site, only to find Bill Coore shaping the #6 green.

“Not only is it extraordinary for golf, but it’s so unique,” said Coore...

Streamsong will feature two courses: The Coore/Crenshaw “Red” layout and Tom Doak’s “Blue” course, though both include some elements of the other architect’s work. Coore and Doak actually mapped the holes together, then figured out how to divvy them up into two interlocking routings.

“And even in that process,” Coore said, “we didn’t know who was going to get which course.”


http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports-golf/2012/04/23/streamsong-creation-taking-shape-on-unique-dunes/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2012, 02:28:04 PM »
As it's not necessarily worthy of its own thread...

The Mosaic Company today announced the selection of Interstate Hotels & Resorts as the hotel management company for its Streamsong Resort project and KemperSports as the management company for the resort's golf operations.

Congrats to Josh Lesnik and the Kemper team.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/mosaic-selects-interstate-hotels-resorts-as-manager-of-streamsongr-resort-2012-02-16


No additional news on timing:

The two golf courses and lakeside golf clubhouse -- featuring 12 guest rooms, a steakhouse restaurant, 4,400 square feet of meeting space, lounge and pro shop -- are projected to open in late 2012, providing an initial golf and meeting destination.

Opening of the main lodge and other resort amenities is planned for fall 2013.



This is great news. Was it always the plan to get Kemper involved?

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2012, 02:31:04 PM »
This is the only one where thier courses are intertwined and it sounds like they actually collaborated.  As you can imagine, the result is very interesting.

This might be the coolest thing I've heard about this yet (pictures are awesome thus far). It certainly can’t be the norm, two world class architects, arguably the 2 best in the world, working in harmony, yet in parallel.  Should make for an incredible finished product.

When will the courses be playable?

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