Streamsong routing

[Kris Shreiner]

Pat,

They have been doing some promotion, but it has been low-key to date. Look to see that ramped up in the next few months.

Niall,

Kemper, which has several divisions, has been involved in some capacity since the early days. Others with more insight on that score can expand on their role.

Bill,

The turf during my early play opportunity certainly had release, especially on the greens. Tom could give a better read on what that sward and sand/soil profile combination can yield in the way of linksy characteristics longterm.

Caddies were/are supposed to be part of the mix. Plans are in development last I heard. From what I saw, there is nothing easy about either golf course, even from the correct tees. The quality architecture, and options presented during play, coupled with the breezy nature of the site, make caddie golf a natural compliment to what should be fun, enjoyable and testing golf.

As the weather will trend to the warm side during much of the year, forecaddie rounds will probably comprise a majority of the golf played with caddies. You certainly can walk the courses in cooler months or on less beastly days, but I think the walks on both courses, in very hot conditions, will be avoided.

Cheers,
Kris

[Bill Brightly]

Thanks, Chris. While I admit that I know very little about the economics of making a resort like this profitable, I just have to believe that there will be a high level of demand for the product. As an east coast, cold weather resident, I currently have very little desire to go to Florida during the winter to play golf. And as a baby boomer, I see far fewer of my peers with a goal of buying a second home in FL and ponying up big bucks to join a second club like our parents generation did. But a resort like Streamsong, with world class courses that are truly unique, has great interest to me for one or two trips per winter, and I bet MANY will feel the same way. Bandon is too far for most east coast guys, but we can fly in the morning and be on the Streamsong tee at 1 PM.

[Greg Tallman]

Thanks, Chris. While I admit that I know very little about the economics of making a resort like this profitable, I just have to believe that there will be a high level of demand for the product. As an east coast, cold weather resident, I currently have very little desire to go to Florida during the winter to play golf. And as a baby boomer, I see far fewer of my peers with a goal of buying a second home in FL and ponying up big bucks to join a second club like our parents generation did. But a resort like Streamsong, with world class courses that are truly unique, has great interest to me for one or two trips per winter, and I bet MANY will feel the same way. Bandon is too far for most east coast guys, but we can fly in the morning and be on the Streamsong tee at 1 PM.

Bill,

Would proper lodging facilities at World Woods have changed that sentiment pre-Streamsong?

[Bill Brightly]

I don't think so, but I have not played World Woods. Is the golf there "Bandon" good?

[Greg Tallman]

I don't think so, but I have not played World Woods. Is the golf there "Bandon" good?

For some, no way - for others, yes.

It is quite good and certainly the best 36 hole, public access facility in Florida. The Pine Barrens course was thought of in World Top 100 terms and Rolling Oaks is pretty good as well. While Streamsong's emergence and business model may hinder the progress (if a new owner is found) of WW it might just as well offer up a more golf centric opportunity as Streamsong would appear headed in a more resorty, corporate retreat type of model which is probably the safe play.

World Woods could still follow a Bandon like model though it woudl likley take a new, fresh course to jump start a resurgence. Could have easily positioned as such already given the right ownership.  

[Bill Brightly]

I am sure the corporate retreat model has many advantages, but can that really support a 36 hole facility? My sense is that you would need to fill out the tee sheet with a lot of other play. To the extent that this is correct, I think Streamsong will have to create a buzz among northeast golfers, like Bandon has for California golfers. Sounds like SS's site will be that spectacular, and if it is, I could easily see it as a guys winter get away for groups of 4 and 8 guys. Especially all the guys who go to Myrtle Beach in the Spring and Fall, but want a warm weather place fron Dec-March. Guess we'll see.

[Kris Shreiner]

Bill,

I concur with your view that Streamsong will need a mix of golfers to be financially successful. That is the challenge they have. The only two REALLY profitable, quality golf destination facilities ( with NO real estate money in the mix) created in the last 15- 20 years have been where? Well stateside Bandon is the runaway winner, and overseas it has been Kingsbarns, without a doubt.

Both have a CADDIE dynamic at their core...imagine that!? Yeh, you know, the entity that the golf industry would have you believe is: a dying vestige of another age, not worth much of anything, hard to maintain, has liability issues, is expensive to run and merely a novelty. HOGWASH.
It has been the single greatest driver of each's success, working DIRECTLY in tandem with suberb course presentation(s) to deliver exceptional, memorable golf experiences.

Sure, you can play the courses at Bandon, and Kingsbarns, without caddies. But there is NO WAY those locations have the pedigree and success they have enjoyed without them. Why? The answer is quite simple. Caddies, particularly ones of quality, and age alone is no determinant on that score, give experiencing great ground its human soul. They bring the holes to life in a unique way, and sharing the tacking around a track with a good caddie, savoring the good and the comical, is one of the game's great pleasures. That is, if one is capable of embracing and entertaining the experience.

Streamsong has quality ground and the golf vibe there will be crucial to their potential success.The heat will necessitate cart golf during much of the year. That requires forecaddie golf, which is much different, and in many ways is more difficult to deliver well, than just having caddies that carry for players. It also changes the vibe, unless those charged with creating the caddie program really understand the nuances. No caddie outsource model or a white-suit operation will suffice. It requires a whole different level of craft.

What Kingsbarns and Bandon have gotten right, most of the time, is an almost elite, private feel to the golf presentation with a slightly relaxed approach. The presence of caddies has been a significant factor in creating that ambiance. Without them, a rather sterile, dare I say corporate aura about the place becomes the norm...NO MATTER how great the ground...something is found wanting. It is THAT difference that separates the truly great destinations from the rest!

Cheers,
Kris

 

[Dieter Jones]

I was chatting with 3 guys from Fort Luderdale at Barnbougle last week. They travel every year as a group of 8 to a different part of the world to play golf together. They were quite surpised when I mentioned a new resort called Streamsong in their neighourhood, especially when I mentioned the same 2 designers as Barnbougle.

They had not heard anything about it which suggest it is not well known outside of web sites like this

[Tom_Doak]

I was chatting with 3 guys from Fort Luderdale at Barnbougle last week. They travel every year as a group of 8 to a different part of the world to play golf together. They were quite surpised when I mentioned a new resort called Streamsong in their neighourhood, especially when I mentioned the same 2 designers as Barnbougle.

They had not heard anything about it which suggest it is not well known outside of web sites like this

Dieter:

Of course it isn't well known yet.  It's still seven months from opening day.  How many new destinations are well known seven months before they open?  Even Bandon Dunes was not -- only its sisters, because everyone who was at the resort could see them being built.

And really, it would be kind of counter-productive to be publicizing the heck out of Streamsong right now, anyway.  The best sort of p.r. is word-of-mouth, and word-of-mouth takes a bit of time.  But thanks for doing your part with the guys from Ft. Lauderdale!

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

I concur with your view that Streamsong will need a mix of golfers to be financially successful. That is the challenge they have. The only two REALLY profitable, quality golf destination facilities ( with NO real estate money in the mix) created in the last 15- 20 years have been where? Well stateside Bandon is the runaway winner, and overseas it has been Kingsbarns, without a doubt.

Both have a CADDIE dynamic at their core...imagine that!? Yeh, you know, the entity that the golf industry would have you believe is: a dying vestige of another age, not worth much of anything, hard to maintain, has liability issues, is expensive to run and merely a novelty. HOGWASH.
It has been the single greatest driver of each's success, working DIRECTLY in tandem with suberb course presentation(s) to deliver exceptional, memorable golf experiences.

Sure, you can play the courses at Bandon, and Kingsbarns, without caddies. But there is NO WAY those locations have the pedigree and success they have enjoyed without them. Why? The answer is quite simple. Caddies, particularly ones of quality, and age alone is no determinant on that score, give experiencing great ground its human soul. They bring the holes to life in a unique way, and sharing the tacking around a track with a good caddie, savoring the good and the comical, is one of the game's great pleasures. That is, if one is capable of embracing and entertaining the experience.

Streamsong has quality ground and the golf vibe there will be crucial to their potential success.The heat will necessitate cart golf during much of the year. That requires forecaddie golf, which is much different, and in many ways is more difficult to deliver well, than just having caddies that carry for players. It also changes the vibe, unless those charged with creating the caddie program really understand the nuances. No caddie outsource model or a white-suit operation will suffice. It requires a whole different level of craft.

What Kingsbarns and Bandon have gotten right, most of the time, is an almost elite, private feel to the golf presentation with a slightly relaxed approach. The presence of caddies has been a significant factor in creating that ambiance. Without them, a rather sterile, dare I say corporate aura about the place becomes the norm...NO MATTER how great the ground...something is found wanting. It is THAT difference that separates the truly great destinations from the rest!

Cheers,
Kris

 

You raise a great point. I wonder if they will have a strong caddy program. I know the Kemper Sports guys were thrown for a loop when Mike Keiser told them Bandon would be walking only...wonder how they'll deal with that at Streamsong?

I'll say this: a caddy-only approach on a great site would certainly go a long way to creating a buzz in all the northern country clubs.

[Howard Riefs]

Re-reading about the Streamsong routing in light of the new photo tours.

A good reminder of "whose holes were whose..."  

Tom,

What was the thought process behind two firms routing two courses on the same property at the same time?  It appears that the C&C course is mostly a large loop on the outside of the property, with your course winding around in the middle.

I’m curious as to how the process worked.  Did you start out saying:  “Ben/Bill – you get the outside and I’ll take the inside”?  Or did one group rout first and the other second?  Seems like a challenging process considering that neither firm has dealt with a situation like this before (to my knowledge).

I know your are close to Bill and Ben, but were there any moments when you said “I call that chuck of land!”, and they said “No, we want that piece!”, etc?

George,

Bill and I worked on the routing together.  We didn't want to draw a line and each keep to one side of it, because while that might have given the courses some obvious differences, neither of them would have had as much variety as what we came up with.  There is no way in the world we could have come up with the routing we did if we hadn't had so much respect for one another and been willing to let the other guy get his share of the best stuff.

Bill had started working on routing an 18-hole course on the site before I had a map.  He was skeptical about getting 36 holes onto the site, but I said I'd start trying on that, both of us understanding that would probably mean that some of the holes he had already scoped out would wind up on separate courses ... and that's what happened.  Bill's original routings were mostly in the middle of the present site; his first six holes and his 10th-13th were added to get to 36, as were my 2nd, 7th, 9th-11th, 14th, and 16th and 17th.  Some of the other holes had to be changed to make all the connections work, as well, but holes 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 15 on my Blue course are pretty much borrowed from various of Bill's original routing ideas.

I am sure Bill would have preferred not to make such a long loop around the outside of the Blue course, if we were only trying to find the best 18 holes we could on site; but we were trying to find the best 36 holes we could, and that meant that we both had to take a little bit of land that was less than ideal.  I can tell you, though, that some of the holes on that outlying land are some of the best holes on the Blue course, and I'm sure the same is going to be true of at least a couple of those first six holes on the Red.

Someone asked earlier about a Composite routing, but there really isn't one ... We had to change the connection points of some of Bill's original holes to make 36 holes work.  Our deal from the start was that if we thought going to 36 holes compromised the quality of the original 18 significantly, we would have to punt and go use another site instead, but we were both happy with the 18 holes we wound up with, and we hope that future golfers will agree that we made the right decision to put the whole 36 holes together.  Anyone who goes there is going to want to play both courses, and if you try to put together a composite there are going to be too many great holes left out.

[Joe Bausch]

This routing figure isn't quite as fancy as the one Howard linked, but I thought I would post it anyways:

[Joe Bausch]

I wonder if the original developers of Erin Hills might have wished they did two courses on that large parcel of land instead of just one spread all over it... yeah, I know they got a US Open, but maybe two courses with a composite US Open course might look appealing now in hindsight...

[Pete Buczkowski]

Bill had started working on routing an 18-hole course on the site before I had a map.  He was skeptical about getting 36 holes onto the site, but I said I'd start trying on that, both of us understanding that would probably mean that some of the holes he had already scoped out would wind up on separate courses ... and that's what happened.  Bill's original routings were mostly in the middle of the present site; his first six holes and his 10th-13th were added to get to 36, as were my 2nd, 7th, 9th-11th, 14th, and 16th and 17th.  Some of the other holes had to be changed to make all the connections work, as well, but holes 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 15 on my Blue course are pretty much borrowed from various of Bill's original routing ideas.

Interesting, I was just thinking that my least favorite holes on the property are Red 3, 10-12, and Blue 9-11.  Sounds like all of these were not in the original 18 hole routing.  Not that they are bad holes, just not as unique as the rest.

For anybody that visits, make sure to look at the alternate routing posted in the men's locker room.  Some fascinating alternate holes there. 

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting, I was just thinking that my least favorite holes on the property are Red 3, 10-12, and Blue 9-11.  Sounds like all of these were not in the original 18 hole routing.  Not that they are bad holes, just not as unique as the rest.

For anybody that visits, make sure to look at the alternate routing posted in the men's locker room.  Some fascinating alternate holes there. 

Pete:

If you only had to build 18 holes, you wouldn't use the more boring bits of the property, would you?

Thanks for the note about the alternate routing map.  I gave that to them a couple of months ago to frame for the clubhouse but hadn't heard where they had put it.  It's one of two or three different maps that Bill sent to me at some point in the process when we were trying to make our routings fit together, complete with his note to me on the drawing.

[Mark Saltzman]

Tom, wouldn't you? Is it really best to have 18 holes over undulating terrain? Even a course like Maxwell's Twin Hills in Oklahoma, which is routed over some of the most extreme terrain I've seen on a golden age course, has a couple of flattish holes. Ditto Irondequoit in New York. Does WBYC have some flat holes? Do they add to the course because of their land or would you want them on similarly extreme terrain?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, wouldn't you? Is it really best to have 18 holes over undulating terrain? Even a course like Maxwell's Twin Hills in Oklahoma, which is routed over some of the most extreme terrain I've seen on a golden age course, has a couple of flattish holes. Ditto Irondequoit in New York. Does WBYC have some flat holes? Do they add to the course because of their land or would you want them on similarly extreme terrain?

Mark:

I don't mind having some holes on the flatter land in the middle of Streamsong Blue (9th to 11th), and I don't think Bill Coore minds having his, either.  But it was VERY predictable that lots of golfers, like Pete, would identify these as his "least favorite" holes on the property.  And it may well be that it's the difference between the courses being top-10 modern courses and only top-50, because panelist types love to look for "weaknesses".

However, to your point, Bill Coore did not use the least interesting bits of land in any of his 18-hole routings.  That's not to say there wasn't "less severe" land that was part of the course ... there is quite a bit of difference between the character of Blue 4 or Red 15 or 16, vs. Blue 15 or Red 9, which are on gentler ground.  So, the course would still have had a fair bit of variety.

[Mark Saltzman]

Tom, respectfully, sometimes it's most interesting to see what's done with the least interesting land.  Myself and another panelist type both identified 11 Blue as one of the best holes on property. 

[Pete Buczkowski]

Interesting, I was just thinking that my least favorite holes on the property are Red 3, 10-12, and Blue 9-11.  Sounds like all of these were not in the original 18 hole routing.  Not that they are bad holes, just not as unique as the rest.

For anybody that visits, make sure to look at the alternate routing posted in the men's locker room.  Some fascinating alternate holes there. 

Pete:

If you only had to build 18 holes, you wouldn't use the more boring bits of the property, would you?

Thanks for the note about the alternate routing map.  I gave that to them a couple of months ago to frame for the clubhouse but hadn't heard where they had put it.  It's one of two or three different maps that Bill sent to me at some point in the process when we were trying to make our routings fit together, complete with his note to me on the drawing.

I wouldn't think so.  However just because they were the least appealing holes to my untrained eye doesn't mean the courses are poorer as a whole.  If every holes had as much visual drama as Blue or Red 7 it would be sensory overload after an entire round.  I am far from a rater, just a lover of links and linksy courses.

If I remember correctly, did the alternate routing have a longer hole straddling and then going across the lake near the clubhouse instead of the par 3s?  Hard to imagine a hole would fit in there, but talk about dramatic.

[Greg Tallman]

Tom, respectfully, sometimes it's most interesting to see what's done with the least interesting land.  Myself and another panelist type both identified 11 Blue as one of the best holes on property.  

Agreed, interesting to see what the artists do with a "blank canvas". On that note I would ask Tom what his favorite par 3 is at his Bahia de los Sueños course in Baja. I think I can predict the answer and would imagine he would agree it was on the least interesting piece of land of the four par 3s, readily workable and made interesting but void of any real interest as raw land.

[Jud_T]

Tom, respectfully, sometimes it's most interesting to see what's done with the least interesting land.  Myself and another panelist type both identified 11 Blue as one of the best holes on property. 

Agreed, interesting to see what the artists do with a "blank canvas". On that note I would ask Tom what his favorite par 3 is at his Bahia de los Sueños course in Baja. I think I can predict the answer and would imagine he would agree it was on the least interesting piece of land of the four par 3s, readiult workable and made interesting but void of any real interest as raw land.

#3? 

[Greg Tallman]

Tom, respectfully, sometimes it's most interesting to see what's done with the least interesting land.  Myself and another panelist type both identified 11 Blue as one of the best holes on property. 

Agreed, interesting to see what the artists do with a "blank canvas". On that note I would ask Tom what his favorite par 3 is at his Bahia de los Sueños course in Baja. I think I can predict the answer and would imagine he would agree it was on the least interesting piece of land of the four par 3s, readiult workable and made interesting but void of any real interest as raw land.

#3? 

Certainly my choice

[Tom_Doak]

I have not thought through all the holes at the Bay of Dreams, but I can tell you that a lot more of #3 green was there than you are thinking.

[David_Elvins]

I don't mind having some holes on the flatter land in the middle of Streamsong Blue (9th to 11th), and I don't think Bill Coore minds having his, either.  But it was VERY predictable that lots of golfers, like Pete, would identify these as his "least favorite" holes on the property.  And it may well be that it's the difference between the courses being top-10 modern courses and only top-50, because panelist types love to look for "weaknesses".

Most highly rated courses have flat land.  That's why Bill Coore searches out and uses flat land on each site that he builds on. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't mind having some holes on the flatter land in the middle of Streamsong Blue (9th to 11th), and I don't think Bill Coore minds having his, either.  But it was VERY predictable that lots of golfers, like Pete, would identify these as his "least favorite" holes on the property.  And it may well be that it's the difference between the courses being top-10 modern courses and only top-50, because panelist types love to look for "weaknesses".

Most highly rated courses have flat land.  That's why Bill Coore searches out and uses flat land on each site that he builds on. 

David,

In general or in certain areas ?