[David Kelly]

 Angeles National also sustained significant damage to the golf course during the same storm that damaged Rustic.  I believe the rains in 2005 were classified as a "100 year event" and it would seem silly, to me, to engineer beyond that. 

I forgot about that. Angeles National is about 30 miles away from Rustic Canyon and it suffered damage and had one or two holes temporarily lost. 

Here is a Los Angeles Times article about the rain in 2005.  In the article, 10 different courses are mentioned as sustaining  significant damage (Rustic Canyon is not mentioned) and they were located in such geographically wide ranging areas as Yorba Linda in Orange County, Eagle Glen in Riverside County and Harding Park in Los Angeles county:
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/12/sports/sp-golf12

From the article:

"Six-month-old Angeles National Golf Club in Sunland lost its 17th green when the nearby Tujunga reservoir overflowed, sending water rushing down the Tujunga wash and sweeping the green down a hillside, Marketing Director Victor Castro said."

Angeles National, which also lost its 18th tee box, opened nine holes Tuesday and plans to fully reopen Friday. The 416-yard par-four 18th will be turned into a par three, with tee boxes in the fairway, and a little-used extra hole will be added to the front nine while the 17th is rebuilt.

[DMoriarty]

Joe and Dan,

Don't get too attached to those overlays.  I assumed that the google early historical images would be properly aligned.  Because the placement seemed strange and not what many (including me) remember, I went back and checked the google earth alignment and it looks like my assumption was wrong. I will redo the overlays and try to better align them.  My guess is that the original 7th green was actually to the right of where I have it marked in the shaded overlay, closer to the 8th tee, but we will see.
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Sean,  

I don't know how to exactly classify a floodplain.  Rustic is built in a canyon much like Riviera Country Club and many other courses in Southern California. (Rustic's namesake is either the canyon in which Riviera sits or the one immediately adjacent to it.  Rustic Canyon GC is actually in Happy Camp Canyon.)  In almost any mountain canyon in a usually arid environment there is a possibility of water erosion given enough precipitation.  Riviera and many other courses were severely damaged - some were completely destroyed - in the catastrophic flooding of 1938. But I am not sure that means every canyon qualifies as a floodplain, or that golf courses ought not to be built in southern California.   Dan mentions damage at Angeles National, but many golf courses - especially those below burn areas - were severely damaged in the 2004 -2005 storms.  As recovery goes, Rustic had a tremendous comparative advantage to many of these because it was relatively cheap and easy to put back together again.

As for the long term geology of Happy Camp Canyon in particular, there had obviously been some water running down the canyon at some point in the past.  A small channel had obviously cut been by water, but it was so small and narrow that one could jump across it in parts. And even during and after heavy rainfall there was never water running down this channel. The real game changer with Rustic was the fire. The fire laid bare the mountains and side canyons above, and where you have barren, burned mountains you have a potential for erosion.  Without the fire or some other severe alteration of the drainage characteristics of the higher ground (like the decades of unchecked development preceding the 1938 catastrophe) it just doesn't happen.

[DMoriarty]

Here are the revised photos after aligning google earth's various historic aerials. (I've also changed them on the last page.) These seem to place the old 7th green more in line with where I thought things were.

[Dan Grossman]

Thanks David for revising the aerials.  That does make more sense and highlights the longer walk from #7 green to #8 tee in the current incarnation.

[Alex Miller]

Having only played the "new" 7th, I have to say the old aerials make it really look like a formerly great hole. I hit driver maybe 5% of the time on that hole now, but I'm sure I would've close to 80% in the old one.

The main thing I like about it is the proximity to the 8th tee since as of right now the routing feels more disjointed at that point on the course than any other (save for the walks from 9 to 10 and 17 to 18)

[Dan Grossman]

Alex -

I'm not sure that you would go for it quite as often in the old version, as I personally think the benefits from carrying the wash are greater in the current version.  Having played both incarnations, I carry the wash more now than I did on "old" #7.  My distance off the tee wasn't really a factor in the decision, I could carry the wash in both incarnations.  I didn't like the approach from the right on the old version, it wasn't my cup of tea. 

Here is a somewhat interesting back and forth on the topic that we had several years ago.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,12221.25.html

[Alex Miller]

Alex -

I'm not sure that you would go for it quite as often in the old version, as I personally think the benefits from carrying the wash are greater in the current version.  Having played both incarnations, I carry the wash more now than I did on "old" #7.  My distance off the tee wasn't really a factor in the decision, I could carry the wash in both incarnations.  I didn't like the approach from the right on the old version, it wasn't my cup of tea. 

Here is a somewhat interesting back and forth on the topic that we had several years ago.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,12221.25.html

Very interesting! Thanks, Dan. Personally I am one who loves a LW in my hand no matter the yardage, but I'm not afraid of the ground game either. I'm just trying to say that for me, more often than not, getting closer to the green will allow me a better chance to score. And it sounds like the angle was improved in the old version, while in the new one I don't think there is much benefit at all.

The only pin which you don't have to worry about carrying the bunker in the current 7th is front, on the right, or on that back shelf or possibly in the trough. Well since everything fees to that trough and front right, the advantage is minimal in finding that right fairway and I try not to mess with that back shelf, so there is really no incentive for me to find a smaller landing area off the tee. Like most others, I do however find that the left side of the fairway is advantageous for any left side pin, especially the front one.

[DMoriarty]

What is strange is that the walk to the 8th tee is only about 10 yard further than it was before.  The tee is about 55 yards, where it used to be about 45 yards.  Yet if feels like it is further way.  I think the perception of the longer walk is created by the proximity of the 9th tee to the 7th green.  It makes it feel as if you are backtracking.

The old green was just amazing but probably had to be experienced to be believed. As for the question of whether to carry or not, one thing I liked about the old hole was that it looked as if the carry was the obvious play, but the green was such that, with some pin positions the golfer was left with an extremely tricky shot.
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Dan, that is an interesting link.  I was trying to remember the exact chain of events and was having trouble remembering whether these smaller instances occurred after or before the huge storms  The storm that is mentioned in the link occurred in March of 2004 which was after the fires but before the huge storms of December 2004 January 2005.    As I said above the fire was a real game changer.    All of the sudden water was rushing down the canyon with each big storm because there was nothing to stop it.   The city/county realized they had a real potential problem in their hand because they there was a neighborhood at the mouth of the canyon right below the burn area and so they started pushing dirt around immediately below the course in the hopes of creating a catch basin to stop the water and escape channels to the sides. 

[Dan Grossman]

What is strange is that the walk to the 8th tee is only about 10 yard further than it was before.  The tee is about 55 yards, where it used to be about 45 yards.  Yet if feels like it is further way.  I think the perception of the longer walk is created by the proximity of the 9th tee to the 7th green.  It makes it feel as if you are backtracking.

The old green was just amazing but probably had to be experienced to be believed. As for the question of whether to carry or not, one thing I liked about the old hole was that it looked as if the carry was the obvious play, but the green was such that, with some pin positions the golfer was left with an extremely tricky shot.
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Dan, that is an interesting link.  I was trying to remember the exact chain of events and was having trouble remembering whether these smaller instances occurred after or before the huge storms  The storm that is mentioned in the link occurred in March of 2004 which was after the fires but before the huge storms of December 2004 January 2005.    As I said above the fire was a real game changer.    All of the sudden water was rushing down the canyon with each big storm because there was nothing to stop it.   The city/county realized they had a real potential problem in their hand because they there was a neighborhood at the mouth of the canyon right below the burn area and so they started pushing dirt around immediately below the course in the hopes of creating a catch basin to stop the water and escape channels to the sides. 

David - the other thing that adds to the additional feel of backtracking is that the current green on #7 is much higher (elevation-wise) than the old green.  So, after crossing the wash, you have to scramble up the slope to the top of the green, especially from the left side.  Then, from there, you have to go back down the hill and then climb back to #8 tee. There is an additional climb in addition to the 10 yds or so.

Regarding the mudslides, you are exactly correct now.  I had forgotten about that and that they were bulldozing things at the bottom of the course.  I assume that caused all the silt and sand to cover the old #4?

[David Kelly]

Currently, the play off the tee is really dictated by the pin position as others have noted.  If the pin is left, going long left is the best play.  You get a good look at the green and have a SW to a pretty small target.  Its a bit difficult nailing the distance, but it is the easiest spot, in my opinion.  If the pin is in the right half of the green, the shot from the left fairway is doable, but becomes even more difficult.  With a SW, you are more likely than not going to end up in the trough.  However, if you challenge the wash and hit it over, you have a much more straightforward shot and it is easier to get it close.  I think it is still a difficult shot and the ball will still want to end up in the trough, but there is a much better chance to make birdie from over the wash. 

You know that has been our thinking since they built the new fairway but yesterday in my afternoon round two of the four people in our group had an approach to the far left pin from the alternate fairway and both knocked their approach shots inside of 15 feet.  Mayhugh hit it to about 4 ft.

I still don't think that is the play but now I know it isn't impossible.

[DMoriarty]

David - the other thing that adds to the additional feel of backtracking is that the current green on #7 is much higher (elevation-wise) than the old green.  So, after crossing the wash, you have to scramble up the slope to the top of the green, especially from the left side.  Then, from there, you have to go back down the hill and then climb back to #8 tee. There is an additional climb in addition to the 10 yds or so.

You may be the laziest man alive.

[Dan Grossman]

You may be the laziest man alive.

I conserve energy for the hike up and down those hills by not helping to look for your golf balls in the bushes.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

In stating his favorite courses, Ben Hogan used to mention Seminole, Colonial, Pinehurst #2 and Rivera "before the flood."  Riviera was altered a lot more in their flood than Rustic was in theirs.

Dan Grossman
I know your thoughts.  On the old 7th if you had a half wedge and didn't make birdie, you felt letdown and upset.  By hitting full wedge you could tell yourself that not all full wedge holes are birdied.

[Pete Lavallee]

The old green was just amazing but probably had to be experienced to be believed. As for the question of whether to carry or not, one thing I liked about the old hole was that it looked as if the carry was the obvious play, but the green was such that, with some pin positions the golfer was left with an extremely tricky shot.

I remeber about 5 years ago that Matt Ward was going to play Rustic Canyon. The Superintendent allowed you to set the pins that day in hopes of proving to Matt that the angles did matter and you couldn't just blast awat off the tee. You set the flag just over the little hump in ther front right of the old green. The 3 players in my group all hit drives in excess of 270 yards over the wash, but because they were on the far right side of the right hand fairway none of them got with 50 feet of that hole location even though the had less than 60 yards in.

[Bill_McBride]

Currently, the play off the tee is really dictated by the pin position as others have noted.  If the pin is left, going long left is the best play.  You get a good look at the green and have a SW to a pretty small target.  Its a bit difficult nailing the distance, but it is the easiest spot, in my opinion.  If the pin is in the right half of the green, the shot from the left fairway is doable, but becomes even more difficult.  With a SW, you are more likely than not going to end up in the trough.  However, if you challenge the wash and hit it over, you have a much more straightforward shot and it is easier to get it close.  I think it is still a difficult shot and the ball will still want to end up in the trough, but there is a much better chance to make birdie from over the wash. 

You know that has been our thinking since they built the new fairway but yesterday in my afternoon round two of the four people in our group had an approach to the far left pin from the alternate fairway and both knocked their approach shots inside of 15 feet.  Mayhugh hit it to about 4 ft.

I still don't think that is the play but now I know it isn't impossible.

Does Mayhugh have a job?   Just sayin'.

[DMoriarty]

I conserve energy for the hike up and down those hills by not helping to look for your golf balls in the bushes.

Given that I usually hit into the bushes just past the tee and it is on your way anyway, it would be courteous if you helped.  Lazy.
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I remeber about 5 years ago that Matt Ward was going to play Rustic Canyon. The Superintendent allowed you to set the pins that day in hopes of proving to Matt that the angles did matter and you couldn't just blast awat off the tee. You set the flag just over the little hump in ther front right of the old green. The 3 players in my group all hit drives in excess of 270 yards over the wash, but because they were on the far right side of the right hand fairway none of them got with 50 feet of that hole location even though the had less than 60 yards in.

I would never do such a thing.  But had I, it would have been more like eight years ago.   The back right pin position was on of my favorites on the entire course for precisely the reasons you mentioned.  It was subtle strategic design at its best.  No need to beat the golfer over the head when a little hump the edge of the green could and did impact play all the way back to the tee. The shot from the far left of the other short fairway was semi-blind but from there the pin was accessible.
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Riviera was altered a lot more in their flood than Rustic was in theirs.

Well then Riviera is obviously not a very good golf course, and not well thought out.

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Did Mayhugh make the putt?

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