[Marty Bonnar]

Back on golf - ish.
The full title of the R&A is of course The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews, not The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of Westminster.
Some of the members and a few past captains though are/were also members of that other august institution!
F.

[Mark Chaplin]

Martin if Scotland became I dependent I'm sure there would be an application to join the EU, new applicants are obliged to take on the Euro......!!

The Royal status isn't an issue Royal Dublin decided to keep it Hong Kong Golf Club decided to lose it. One of the last club awarded Royal status by the Crown is in the Czech Republic. Royal Marianski Lazne Golf Club was awarded its status in 2003 due to links with King Edward VII.

[David_Tepper]

"What is undeniable is the movement towards 'scottishness' which seems to be occuring. I won't comment on the rights or wrongs about it but it IS happening."

Martin -

Speaking of "scottishness," what I do find curious is the efforts "the powers that be" in Scottish football are taking to discourage Scottish footballers from participating in the football team being chosen to represent Great Britain in the Olympics this summer. Does that make any sense to you?

DT  

[Marty Bonnar]

Mark,
I'm not sure about the Euro application. Wee Eck is still insisting that we will stay in Sterling. If I were English of course, I'd tell us to feck aff.

David,
very funny you should mention that. I was thinking the very same earlier. More sceptical minds than mine woiuld be thinking that perhaps there might be the possibility of the chance of an opportunity of a mere happenstance that the politicians are exerting some influence....
of course, it might just be that we still want to compete in the World Cup as an independent (footballing sense) nation!  AND we still have to actually QUALIFY for that again..............
best,
MB.

[Mark Chaplin]

The SNP has said in the past that it would see euro membership as a long-term aspiration for an independent Scotland, though this would have to be approved in a referendum. All new member states are obliged to give an undertaking that they will join the euro when they meet the Maastricht criteria.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Now if independence brought about the demise of The R&A then I might just vote yes. No not really, however no matter how much Scottishness when you feel the debt around the necks of each person in Scotland one will wonder why.

Sorry Marty there are no benefits to being fully independent. It’s a big con, Scotland is great in so many ways, we have the best of both worlds, its just that some people just can’t adjust. Do the Scots hate the Germans, the Japanese and what about the Americans re 1812 and 1770’s when many a Scot was killed. No this is selective and pointless as we are as equal in fact in money terms more equal than the English. Yet for stubbiness we hold the Olympic Gold - 'scottishness' I have that by the bucketful.

Melvyn  

[David_Tepper]

"its just that some people just can’t adjust"

INDEED!!!

[Marty Bonnar]

Mark,
you said it! " In the past". The short term memory of politicians is usually equivalent to that of a demented goldfish.

Mel,
just wait til you're one of the first on the 're-patriation' trains....

F.

[Matthew Hunt]

I believe under EU law under a split it would then be an international event then therefore the R and A could not use the nation the course is in as a factor in it decisions. The moot legal point is would this would mean that Irish/Dutch links courses could take a legal Challenge if not considered in the same way as English Scottish events.

Mark, be would be classed as a spit not a secession so if Scotland was to have to take the Euro then so would England. The EU courts had a very liberal construction of the treaties when Germany merged which suggested it would do the same if the UK split.

Ps. If the New Tiger Woods game has put Royal County Down on the Open Rota why can't the R and A?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Martin

Sure you do not mean retraining in one of Salmond’s Camps

Melvyn

[Chris Kane]

The ideal outcome would, of course, be for Scotland to become independent and have England invade soon after. 

[Ben Stephens]

I have been waiting for this! What would happen to the Open? even though it is referred as the British Open - if Scotland got independence would the R&A stick to courses in Scotland only? or would it remain in the reshaped Great Britain? I would be interested in Melvyn's comment.

I was at the University of Dundee for 3 year and I have a soft spot for Scotland and have walked past Alex Salmond and never liked the guy even though he is quite an asute politican fighting for his beliefs but I believe he would take Scotland in the wrong direction.

Ben,

Tom pointed this out in an earlier post. When you spent three years in Dundee did you ever hear or read that it was the British Open?


Bob

Bob,

The only place I've known that the Open Championship being called the British Open is in the USA. The rules of the Open states that a venue has to be a links course in the UK what happens to that if Scotland leaves the UK? Or will the R and A stick to the Scotland + England only rule as Melvyn stated. They may have to re clarify the rules changing it to 'British Isles'

Cheers
Ben

[Chris Kane]

The rules of the Open states that a venue has to be a links course in the UK what happens to that if Scotland leaves the UK? Or will the R and A stick to the Scotland + England only rule as Melvyn stated. They may have to re clarify the rules changing it to 'British Isles'

I'm not aware of any actual rule about the location or type of course the tournament must be held on - they're traditions rather than rules.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It would be a great day. I would miss the English courses in the rotation if that is what the gents at the R&A choose. I would think nothing would change golf wise and life would be far better for the great people of Scotland.

[Tom_Doak]

The Open winner was formally regarded as the Champion Golf Player of Great Britain as the invitations were open to all the clubs in Scotland & England.
Article dated 20.10.1860

Melvyn:

That bit of history omits the fact that "all the clubs in Scotland & England" was the same thing as all the golf clubs in the world, in 1860.

[Bob_Huntley]

Melvyn

You know more about this than anyone on the board with the exception of Martin.

How many Scots are receiving benefits from Whitehall. Can an independent Scotland pay out the social security checks and the other payments that seem to proliferate in a welfare state?

Bob

[Josh Stevens]

We may giggle, but it is a good point

Scotland is part of Great Britain, and then if we add Northern Ireland we get the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (please note to those who think Portrush is in Ireland, it isnt)

One hand it doesnt matter as there is no "Britain" in the tournament name and the jug is simply inscribed "The Golf Champion Trophy".  But in practice it is Britain and UK

It does depend a little on how they propose to secede - if they just devolve a bit as they suggest they want to and keep the pound and the queen then its probably fine.  But of course the english say no to this idea - if you are going to go then bloody well go and dont expect us to keep paying for you.

If then they devolve completely and assume their own currency or the Euro, then it ceases to be part of Britain and would then be akin to playing the chamopionship in France.

But then again the R&A is in the Kingdom of Fife, so perhaps they can do their own thing

[Philippe Binette]

Royal Quebec, Royal Montreal and Royal Ottawa (the course is on the Québec side) are the real royals in Quebec... but there are 5-6 other royal than aren't sanctioned, (pretty sure)

Quebec wouldn't host the canadian open in case of a separation... especially being sponsored by the Royal Bank of Canada (RBC)

but it won't happen soon, unless the conservatives (mainly from western canada) keep adding portraits of the queen everywhere and rename every institution the Royal ..... (example, Canadian Air Force is now back to the Royal Canadian Air Force)

[Josh Stevens]

Once a Royal charter is granted by the crown or local representive (Governor General etc) it is permanent -  it doesnt lapse if the country in question leaves the commonwealth - the charter is given to the club, not the country.

The club can choose to drop it as did most Royal things in HK as it was deemed a tad colonial, or it can be stripped as happened at  what used to be Royal Berkshire who pissed off the Prince of Wales at the time when they refused to allow his guest (James Braid) to enter the clubhouse for lunch because he was a professional.  It is now just the humble Berkshire.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Sorry you are right it does not say "all the clubs in Scotland & England" but it does say “and they invited the various golf clubs in England and Scotland to name and send the best players on the links”

Sorry Tom, nearly got it right, but I believe the meaning is the same, but yes my wording was wrong.

Bob

Scotland is more than equal to England so IMHO its madness to try to go it alone to satisfy a handful of power hungry bunch of questionable individuals. In my living memory Scotland has never lost its identity or what it brings to the Union, yet through Labour it has eroded the self-belief of many Scots into believing that the world owns many a life and living. 
Having spent many year abroad it became clear that Scots were highly regarded and have had more than their share of famous sons.

I blame no one for the Union, Scotland entered that with open eyes, problem I suspect is that Westminster is not in Edinburgh.

To lose one’s Scottishness is a poor reflection on those individuals and would appear someone needs to shoulder the blame, so let’s blame the old enemy, it stops us from blaming the real culprits which at times gaze back at us when we look into a mirror.

The Scots are more equal than the English, we also have our own Parliament (which so far has cost a fortune) as well as a say in the affairs of England through Westminster.  Just think what would  or will happen if our Parliament had to be supported by taxation only being raised in Scotland. The grass might be greener in England but Scotland still gets most of the benefit from the Union.

Melvyn

[Anthony Butler]

The Open winner was formally regarded as the Champion Golf Player of Great Britain as the invitations were open to all the clubs in Scotland & England.
Article dated 20.10.1860




As for what will happen, let’s see if Scotland is mad enough to seek massive debts that will take forever to dispose of just so some little greed man and his friends can have power.  If Scotland ever was the poor relation in the Union, then times have changes as our citizen’s get far more per man that any in England.

Independence means Scotland will have to pay for itself, that will be a rude awaking for many a Scot who has for generations supported Labour seeking as many free hand outs as possible. Full Independence will see the taxes in Scotland going through the roof all so we can keep the SNP in the manner they dream of being kept in. Any Government who is willing to join the Euro while it’s on its death bed as a currency should never be given any form of power and certainly not the key to the doors.

As for our Monarchy, our current Queen and dynasty sits on the throne thanks to the link to The Scottish Stuarts.

I pray that the SNP never get a majority vote as I believe full independence will rip Scotland to bits perhaps persuading the English to again rebuild Hadrian’s Wall to keep the poor Northern tribes out of their prosperous country.

I love Scotland but not as an SNP debt ridden country.

Melvyn  

100% agree this would be be a bad move for Scotland.

The leaders of this 'independence' movement seems about as smart as the geniuses who threatened 'secession' after Barack Obama was elected president... Once they saw the books, they stopped flapping their lips.

As a rule, the 'blue' states have been supporting the red states in the US since Federal income tax started in the early 20th century.

[Niall C]

The rules of the Open states that a venue has to be a links course in the UK what happens to that if Scotland leaves the UK? Or will the R and A stick to the Scotland + England only rule as Melvyn stated. They may have to re clarify the rules changing it to 'British Isles'

I'm not aware of any actual rule about the location or type of course the tournament must be held on - they're traditions rather than rules.

Its not even tradition, its a Committee decision. Periodically they review where they might ant to play and what courses go and come off the Open rota. Nothing is set in stone. If there was good reason they may even move to playing the Open on an inland course. Of course hard to imagine what circumstances might make them want to do that but it wouldn't require any great constitutional change to do it.

Niall

[Niall C]

"What is undeniable is the movement towards 'scottishness' which seems to be occuring. I won't comment on the rights or wrongs about it but it IS happening."

Martin -

Speaking of "scottishness," what I do find curious is the efforts "the powers that be" in Scottish football are taking to discourage Scottish footballers from participating in the football team being chosen to represent Great Britain in the Olympics this summer. Does that make any sense to you?

DT  

DT

It isn't just Scotland but they Welsh and Northern Irish FA's as well. The reason is historical and refers back to the founding of the game when the home nations were given special status such they still have a permanent position on the Fifa committee. This in turn has protected their international football teams. If you think about it, why isn't here a GB team playing in the World Cup and European Championships ? The reason is because of the position that the home nations have at Committee. The fear is that if the home nations agree to sanctioning a UK team in the Olympics, then that slippery odious individual who runs FIFA would use that as a pretext to stop Scotland, Wales and NI (and England) fielding individual teams in the World Cup etc.

That wouldn't cause England a problem because they have no problem taking Britain to mean England anyway  however it would be hugely detrimental to the home nations.

Incidentally there's a lesson to be learned there for golf. It shows what happens when the Olympics gets involved in a sport. Long term considerations about how a sport is run take second place to putting on spectacle every 4 years.

Niall 

[Jon Wiggett]

"What is undeniable is the movement towards 'scottishness' which seems to be occuring. I won't comment on the rights or wrongs about it but it IS happening."

Martin -

Speaking of "scottishness," what I do find curious is the efforts "the powers that be" in Scottish football are taking to discourage Scottish footballers from participating in the football team being chosen to represent Great Britain in the Olympics this summer. Does that make any sense to you?

DT  

DT

It isn't just Scotland but they Welsh and Northern Irish FA's as well. The reason is historical and refers back to the founding of the game when the home nations were given special status such they still have a permanent position on the Fifa committee. This in turn has protected their international football teams. If you think about it, why isn't here a GB team playing in the World Cup and European Championships ? The reason is because of the position that the home nations have at Committee. The fear is that if the home nations agree to sanctioning a UK team in the Olympics, then that slippery odious individual who runs FIFA would use that as a pretext to stop Scotland, Wales and NI (and England) fielding individual teams in the World Cup etc.

That wouldn't cause England a problem because they have no problem taking Britain to mean England anyway   however it would be hugely detrimental to the home nations.

Incidentally there's a lesson to be learned there for golf. It shows what happens when the Olympics gets involved in a sport. Long term considerations about how a sport is run take second place to putting on spectacle every 4 years.

Niall  

Niall,

what you say is true but ignores another important factor. To change the status of the home nations would require FIFA's main committee to vote for it. None of the major nations have any interest in creating a stronger opponent by creating a team GB. This is more to do with infighting within and amongst the home nation FAs than FIFA.

What amazes me is that no one is talking about Devo-max. This would have every chance of getting through and would make a vote for independence in say 15 years more likely. As it is, it is not so likely that independence will get the yes at the moment and if the voters say no it will almost certainly end the SNP's chances of staying the leading party and might even consign them to the wilderness.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall - Wentworth was proposed in the early 60s I think and Michael Bonallock was very much in favour of it. The Open then was in decline up until Arnold Palmer coming over, very few Americans bothered to come over, hardly any USA winners from 1934 to 1960, just Snead in '46 who probably only played in it two or three times and certainly did not defend it, then Hogan who just played in '53, when you consider that from 1920 through to 1934 quite a lot of Americans came over, the Open was in need of a big revival. Of course we dont have that problem with it now and the success is quite a lot to do with the type of courses that the championship is played on, the main thing to factor is how easy 50,000 can get in and out each day and where the hotels and accomodation are, airports, motorways, tented villages, auxillary car parks and all the rest of the logistical stuff.

I am pretty sure it will stay within the current rotation and probably if this years Irish is a 'succesfull trial' I think Portrush will get added for 2017 or 2018. Theres no reason why it cant go south as Ireland is still part of the 'banner', but I dont know if theres a suitable course in Ireland. Porthcawl is another that the R & A would like because its Wales and West, but it does not quite work. The biggest new threat would be Trump I expect. There are not many places the Open can go other than the current courses when you add up the requirements.

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