[Michael George]

Best routing ever before it even opens for play.  Didn't Tom have a "lets not jump the gun" post on this course several months ago.

Listen, I am excited to see the course in June and am sure it will be a great addition to Dismal and US golf courses in general.  My guess is that it will immediately vault into the top tier of many rankings.  But best routing ever?  I would imagine that Old Tom Morris, HS Colt, CB Macdonald and Alister Mackenzie are rolling over in their graves at being dismissed before the course opens.

It would be interesting to compare (after its opening) the routing at Doak Dismal versus Ballyneal given the similar areas.  My guess is that one is not definitively better than the other, just different and up to each golfer's tastes.  

What I think will make Dismal really special is having 2 great courses on one property like that.  Are both courses fescue?  If so, will it be the only private club with 36 fescue holes in the US?

Man winter stinks - can it get to golf season asap.

[George Pazin]

Saying something is the best implies at least some sort of objective criteria. I can't see where that's possible with respect to golf courses, routing or greens or anything else. There is too much personal preference. Unless you are saying it's the best for you, which it does not seem you are saying.

The incubation time would likely vary from person to person as well. Some might not feel comfortable making such an assertion until they've played all of the contenders multiple times. But if one is accepting the premise that it is possible to determine the best, I don't see where any significant incubation would be required.

What makes the routing genius? The flow? Using landforms most would have ignored? Just curious...

Jim C, any chance you can post the routing you've been studying?

[Philippe Binette]

Some prefer blondes, others brunettes...

[Sven Nilsen]

And in five years when the cliff erodes the clubhouse can serve as the cabana house for the new beach club.

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,

Both courses have bent grass greens thank God.

Sven,

You can not write a formula for the greatest of all time.  I never saw it by the map.  I felt it somewhere around the 13th green.  Not even sure where.

Something that has changed for me over the years is that I do believe you need interactions with other golfers on the course.  I even like to turbo that up with interaction with those coming and going by crossing a road.  The feeling as you look in the car and see them looking back is priceless.  Of course this is limited only to private roads as I still do not find humor in the hillbilly drive by "Four!" or honk.

[DMoriarty]

Just in case anyone out there has not yet figured out that, as usual, Barney is just trying to be provocative . . .

Yes Torrey Pines South, how else can you explain that history of exciting finishes no matter who is in contention.  Even Mike Davis couldn't screw it up with his heavy handed back room architectural hocus pocus.

This is Tim Tebow analysis applied to gca, but I am not so sure that "exciting finishes" are the best benchmark for quarterbacks or golf courses.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

of all time.  After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game.  Even Doak called it a genius routing.  What is its competition and when can we officially set the crown upon her head?  We are talking routing only here.

note:  I'm not a big fan of Doak greens so am reluctant to call it the finest course until I see the finished product.

John,

Can you explain why you think it is such a great routing? Also, I'm curious about the routing being genius; can you explain why? Are there some unexpected or surprising changes of direction or incredibly imaginative uses of the terrain?

I've only seen a few photos, so I'm interested to know what makes it head and shoulders better than all other routings in the "history of the game".

[Kalen Braley]

John,

You would have to do more than change 10 and 11 and 4.  By doing that, you leave dead end in the routing (after the current #3, and #12) and you've also only got 17 holes.

I propose leave PD exactly how it is, but just add a new resturant/hang out spot on the dune between the 6th hole at Bandon Dunes and the 10th tee at PD.  Here is an aerial of it.  Build a road where people can take a shuttle in and it'd be perfect.

Who wouldn't want to hang out here after a round and watch the sunset....

[Eric Smith]

I don't think a routing map does one any good unless it would be three dimensional in real size.

What was I thinking? No one on this site has ever attempted to critique a routing from a 2D map.

Also, wasn't it at 13 green when we realized that the club would do well to employ a fleet of electric carts with solar panels?

[John Kavanaugh]

of all time.  After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game.  Even Doak called it a genius routing.  What is its competition and when can we officially set the crown upon her head?  We are talking routing only here.

note:  I'm not a big fan of Doak greens so am reluctant to call it the finest course until I see the finished product.

John,

Can you explain why you think it is such a great routing? Also, I'm curious about the routing being genius; can you explain why? Are there some unexpected or surprising changes of direction or incredibly imaginative uses of the terrain?

I've only seen a few photos, so I'm interested to know what makes it head and shoulders better than all other routings in the "history of the game".

I have attempted to explain why I love my wife but gave up long ago trying to explain why she loves me.  Some things just need to be declared.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think a routing map does one any good unless it would be three dimensional in real size.

What was I thinking? No one on this site has ever attempted to critique a routing from a 2D map.

Also, wasn't it at 13 green when we realized that the club would do well to employ a fleet of electric carts with solar panels?

Exactly, the intimacy may turn many golfers off.  How that is done in this litigious society lies the true genius.

[John Kavanaugh]

To answer your question, I think the minimum incubation period before a routing can be declared the finest of all-time is for the course to open for play.

I would nominate Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, & Cypress Point as great routings.

Open for play is a fair standard.  Let's not forget The Riviera.  I still can't get over the 18th.

Hard to keep up with such a fast moving thread.  I apologize for any comments to which I did not reply.

[Michael George]

See "Our Next Big Thing" thread for pictures of the Doak course and Tom's comments on the routing.  Good stuff.

By the way, Chris - have you come up with a name.  I liked your idea of the "Lariot" for the Doak course and "Spur" for the Nicklaus course with the symbols incorporated.  

If you have not come up with a name by June, I do some of my most creative thinking after drinking a bottle of Knob Creek in front of an awesome fire pit  

[John Kavanaugh]

Can you evaluate the routing before the course is finished?  What happens when that 16th hole par 5 that you think is going to be a great match play hole -- because it looks like a true risk-reward hole and should often come at a critical time in the match -- is actually pretty boring because the green is designed in a way that it doesn't encourage risky plays?  Etc, etc. . . .

Then I would be wrong.  I have played many courses over my 40+ years of golfing and I don't recall a single course that has remained stagnate anymore than me.  Every course changes over time and as such the greatest routing of all time may change from day to day.

My biggest concern is being able to reach the first par three with a driver.  I might need just the right wind.

[David Kelly]

To answer your question, I think the minimum incubation period before a routing can be declared the finest of all-time is for the course to open for play.

I would nominate Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, & Cypress Point as great routings.

Open for play is a fair standard.  Let's not forget The Riviera.  I still can't get over the 18th.

You're right and I meant to write Riviera as my first choice for best routing but didn't for some reason. I don't think anyone could take Riviera's property and draw a better sequence of holes.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I like the routing of Pacific Dunes but believe it starts on the wrong hole.  I would prefer it to start on seven or eight or perhaps finish on the ocean.  Under its current configuration I don't see the number of par threes on the back lending itself to interesting gambling.
...

Sounds like you have been reading too much Ron Whitten. What ocean side hole are you going to destroy to accomplish your clubhouse and finish on the ocean? Where are you going to route the road through the course to get the clubhouse on the ocean?

Garland,

I've been through this before a million times far before Whitten.  You simply turn the par three 10th and 11th into a world class par four finishing hole and reverse 4 into the finest starter in the game.  There is plenty of room for a cliff side clubhouse between the current 11th green and new first tee.  Think Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water perched on the cliff.  A road coming in along the back crossing the new 18th fairway ties it all in.  We all know you gotta cross a road to win this contest.

It's hard to take you seriously when you come up with such simplistic answers as if they were a forgone conclusion.

[Greg Tallman]

Until Doak's next latest greatest is discovered (revealed) to this site?

[Mac Plumart]

I think the only criteria is that you would need to play every course in the entire world before you can say that the new course at Dismal has the world's greatest routing.

But, regardless, I think it can be said with conviction that the routing at the new course is world-class!!!

 

[SL_Solow]

Haven't seen it so i can't comment.  There are a lot of ways to rate routings including consideration of the site.  I agree re Riviera and Olympia Fields North.  Muirfield is often cited and deservedly so.  Pacific Dunes is a great modern.  I am partial to Friar's Head.  The movement between the dune land and the potato fields is extraordinary even if a similar device to come down is used on both nines.  That course could easily have been a dunes nine and a flat nine, leaving an even greater contrast than the nines at Portstewart but instead we have something very special.

[Mike Hendren]

I must confess that I'm not a big fan of a giddy Barney.  

The best routing in the world?  Just give Donald J. Ross 120 acres, a topo map and a couple of days.  No constellation necessary.

Bogey

[Eric Smith]

I must confess that I'm not a big fan of a giddy Barney.  

Ahh, Bogey - You should see him in this state. His sunburned face beaming with joy makes all the sweet gals at Dismal blush. It's really quite nice to see everyone so happy.

[Sean_A]

Best routing?  Well, given that Muirfield is often cited for its brilliant routing and that Doak gave it a 10...  It would be interesting Doak would do some sort of comparative anaysis of Muirfield and Dismal Doak.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I don't know if there is such a thing as the finest routing in the world.  A routing [or a golf course] can really only be declared the best for that given site -- and even then, it will never be anywhere close to unanimous.  The one I've always cited as being impossible to beat is Merion (East) ... there just doesn't seem to be any other way to put that puzzle together, but that's because the property lines were tailored to fit around it over time.

I think my routing for Dismal River is really good.  If there's really genius in it, it's because I did some things that most people would not have thought of doing.  Most people wouldn't decide to start and finish in different spots, for one thing.  And, apparently none of the other architects who visited Dismal River [which, as far as I know, only includes Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson, and Tiger Woods] ever thought about going across the road to the north and down by the river.  [Wait, maybe Watson did have a couple of holes across the road ... I only heard anecdotes and saw some stakes out on site, I have never seen a routing map from anyone else.]

I will say I can't wait to get back to building it.  It won't matter if it's a great routing or not unless we build a great course with it.  That's the goal.

[Scott Warren]

John Kavanaugh,

After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game.

In all of the world, eh?

Could you please list for us the courses you've played in England, Ireland, Scotland and Australia?

[John Kavanaugh]

John Kavanaugh,

After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game.

In all of the world, eh?

Could you please list for us the courses you've played in England, Ireland, Scotland and Australia?

Scott,

Given that there are slightly over 30,000 courses worldwide I have not played an equal amount in both my home country and those you mentioned. I believe that makes me equally qualified to discuss each.

You must be as proud as I am that Chris showed no interest in discussing this fun parabellum.

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