[Garland Bayley]

Went to Bandon with a friend this last weekend. In discussing favorite holes, I told him it was easier to answer what holes don't totally turn me on at Old MacDonald.

I came up with the list 6, 11, 17.

What's your list?

[Bill_McBride]

While most rave about #3 "Sahara", I thought the penalty for being a short hitter was disproportionate.   While the long knockers can flirt with the tree and wind up with a short iron, I'm forced to take a much shorter line these days and end up with a long approach and a pitch to a wildly convoluted green.  I made two doubles in my two trips.   I greatly prefer the original at NGLA!

Just whinin.'.  .  Loved #6.  Great Hell bunker.   

[Anthony Gray]

Went to Bandon with a friend this last weekend. In discussing favorite holes, I told him it was easier to answer what holes don't totally turn me on at Old MacDonald.

I came up with the list 6, 11, 17.

What's your list?

  I would have to play 17 a few more times. At first glance I would agree with you Garland. I played it from the wrong angles.

 

[Jim Franklin]

The Redan was the only hole that didn't float my boat. Not saying it was bad, just didn't float MY boat.

[jonathan_becker]

I came up with the list 6, 11, 17.

What is it about these holes that don't float your boat?

[Garland Bayley]

I came up with the list 6, 11, 17.

What is it about these holes that don't float your boat?

The first time I played 6, as a lefty I pull hooked one way out to the right. It's almost dead flat out there, and other than lack of roll I was able to play into the hole no problem as it is going to be a three shot hole for me on whatever line I play. When played on the fairway there still is a lack of contour typical to the courses at Bandon, and it seems to me the hole presents one problem, avoiding hell bunker. Perhaps the more I play it the more I will learn its idiosyncrasies, and be more impressed.

At 11, I wish the bunkers simulating the sheds were more visible. Maybe they should have used gorse to simulate the sheds. Right now the high handicapper can hit it into the sheds, and suffer little consequence, because he has to hit it much better than average to get home in two anyway. Just call me shed man. So far my shots have been missed into the "sheds". I don't respect the "sheds" when I'm on the tee.

17 perhaps suffers from coming off the high of playing 16. I perhaps haven't really got my head around what's there yet to properly evaluate it, but right now it's just confusing to me. (And it has a pond. )
 

[Patrick Kiser]

While most rave about #3 "Sahara", I thought the penalty for being a short hitter was disproportionate.   While the long knockers can flirt with the tree and wind up with a short iron, I'm forced to take a much shorter line these days and end up with a long approach and a pitch to a wildly convoluted green.  I made two doubles in my two trips.   I greatly prefer the original at NGLA!

Just whinin.'.  .  Loved #6.  Great Hell bunker.   

Bill,

I had the complete opposite experience, but I think that had more to do with the choice of tees we ended up taking.  I want to say we had the whites or middle tees.

I played two rounds.  First round to the right of the tree as recommended by our caddy ... gone.  Through the fairway and never to be found.  I hit  solid drive and it was too much.  Second round I switched to a 3W and once again ... trouble.  Found the ball in the bunker lurking to the lower right side short of the green.


Garland,

I think the thing about OM is you can't take the holes literally.  They aren't meant to be exact copies of the template holes.  With that in mind, I would say I liked just about everything out there.  If I had to nitpick, I would say I agree with Jim about the Redan.  The edge between a good shot and poor shot seemed a little border line.  Although I liked the Cape 9th, I was expecting or hoping for more potential trouble around the green.  The entrance into the green felt capish, but the back of the greens surrounds didn't scare me in the least.

[Garland Bayley]

Patrick,

Are you saying there doesn't need to be some kind of hazard on the right side of #11? Clearly they put one there. I'm just suggesting a more difficult one.

[Bill_McBride]

While most rave about #3 "Sahara", I thought the penalty for being a short hitter was disproportionate.   While the long knockers can flirt with the tree and wind up with a short iron, I'm forced to take a much shorter line these days and end up with a long approach and a pitch to a wildly convoluted green.  I made two doubles in my two trips.   I greatly prefer the original at NGLA!

Just whinin.'.  .  Loved #6.  Great Hell bunker.   

Bill,

I had the complete opposite experience, but I think that had more to do with the choice of tees we ended up taking.  I want to say we had the whites or middle tees.

I played two rounds.  First round to the right of the tree as recommended by our caddy ... gone.  Through the fairway and never to be found.  I hit  solid drive and it was too much.  Second round I switched to a 3W and once again ... trouble.  Found the ball in the bunker lurking to the lower right side short of the green.

Patrick, it was raining, 45^o and wind in our face when I played.  I was lucky to get it over the hill, never mind the line!

I've had a similar lack of success off the ninth tee at Pacific as well of late.   

[Garland Bayley]

While most rave about #3 "Sahara", I thought the penalty for being a short hitter was disproportionate.   While the long knockers can flirt with the tree and wind up with a short iron, I'm forced to take a much shorter line these days and end up with a long approach and a pitch to a wildly convoluted green.  I made two doubles in my two trips.   I greatly prefer the original at NGLA!

Just whinin.'.  .  Loved #6.  Great Hell bunker.   

Bill,

I had the complete opposite experience, but I think that had more to do with the choice of tees we ended up taking.  I want to say we had the whites or middle tees.

I played two rounds.  First round to the right of the tree as recommended by our caddy ... gone.  Through the fairway and never to be found.  I hit  solid drive and it was too much.  Second round I switched to a 3W and once again ... trouble.  Found the ball in the bunker lurking to the lower right side short of the green.

Patrick, it was raining, 45^o and wind in our face when I played.  I was lucky to get it over the hill, never mind the line!

I've had a similar lack of success off the ninth tee at Pacific as well of late.   

Well Bill, it looks like we are just going to have to put you out on the Preserve.

[Bill_McBride]

While most rave about #3 "Sahara", I thought the penalty for being a short hitter was disproportionate.   While the long knockers can flirt with the tree and wind up with a short iron, I'm forced to take a much shorter line these days and end up with a long approach and a pitch to a wildly convoluted green.  I made two doubles in my two trips.   I greatly prefer the original at NGLA!

Just whinin.'.  .  Loved #6.  Great Hell bunker.   

Bill,

I had the complete opposite experience, but I think that had more to do with the choice of tees we ended up taking.  I want to say we had the whites or middle tees.

I played two rounds.  First round to the right of the tree as recommended by our caddy ... gone.  Through the fairway and never to be found.  I hit  solid drive and it was too much.  Second round I switched to a 3W and once again ... trouble.  Found the ball in the bunker lurking to the lower right side short of the green.

Patrick, it was raining, 45^o and wind in our face when I played.  I was lucky to get it over the hill, never mind the line!

I've had a similar lack of success off the ninth tee at Pacific as well of late.   

Well Bill, it looks like we are just going to have to put you out on the Preserve.

......or just go ahead and shoot me!

[Doug Wright]

The only hole that doesn't totally float my boat at Old Macdonald is 13/Leven. It didn't seem to offer much challenge on either the tee shot or the short second shot. The jury is still out for me on 17 but probably with a few more playings I'll appreciate it more.

[Michael George]

I was disappointed with a couple of holes.  

I did not think #9 is as good as many Cape holes - although it probably is as good as it can be with the land it occupies.  From the tee that they had us hitting from, I did not think the right bunkers presented the threat that other Cape holes have on the inside of the dogleg.  In fact, I think the majority of the guys that I was with had more difficulty with the bunkers to the left of the fairway.  Not sure what you can do, but it just plays as a narrow hole right now.  I loved the green complex.

I agree with Garland that the right of #11 needs to be more penal.  While I generally like minimalist designs, I think some earth moving where the right of the fairway is a series of large sand dunes, that may require a punch out to the left, would be really cool.  However, I still enjoyed the hole.

#17 was the only other disappointment.  I understand the intent, but I don't think the drive over the wetland provides enough reward.  Maybe there is 1 too many bunkers over there to tempt you to take a direct line.  I felt like the lay-up and green were average also.  Everyone that I played with both times just hit their drives left, laid up to the right of the fairway and hit into the middle of the green.  Maybe if there was a burn on this hole, I would like it a lot better  

That being said, I had studied a lot about the course before I played it and #1, #4, #14, #15, #16 and #18 all far exceeded my expectations.  #7 was my favorite hole, but I was expecting it to be.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

While it's true that not every hole at Old Macdonald was modeled closely after its template, I spent a lot of time thinking about #17 because it represents a hole that no longer exists -- the old 4th at Lido -- and I wanted to respect some of the features of that hole, even though we weren't working around a big lake.

What most people don't understand about the 4th at Lido is that the direct route to the green was VERY dicey.  It was a small, raised island of fairway with deep rough on all sides, so if you didn't hit a perfect drive you would have to just gouge back out onto the fairway, and face a long third shot to the green, putting yourself at a disadvantage to players who had driven well to the left instead.  So, while many people seem to think that we missed something by making the right-hand fairway at Old Macdonald difficult, this was in fact our intent, because we believed it would have been Macdonald's intent.

I am not surprised that people have trouble with that hole ... into the wind the right-hand route is not feasible and the hole is just a ball-buster.  But, downwind I have reached it in two on two occasions, and all four shots were exciting to play.

[jonathan_becker]

Thanks for the info, Garland.  Regarding 17, that right side of the fw is so choice in that you don't have to contend with the greenside left bunker and the mounding if you're trying to get there in two.  But like others have already said, it takes a long carry off the tee to play from there.

[Michael George]

Tom:

Thanks for the explanation.  Interesting stuff and more reason why I am a m&a attorney and not a golf course architect  .  I also think that #17 suffers a bit because it is sandwiched between 15, 16 and 18, three of most people's favorite holes on the course.

While you are aware, others may not be.  My burn remark was solely due to the story in Dream Golf about Jim wanting a burn on the hole.  That was my favorite story in the book and when I played there, I was trying to see where the burn would have been.  I imagined that it would have occupied the wetland area and ran up the right side, but was not sure. 

[David Kelly]

I wish the right side of the Double Plateau green was used for pin positions and I wish the front of the Biarritz hole was used for pins as well.  I understand the reasoning behind not using them but it would allow each hole to play as intended and in the case of #8 really improve the hole.

[Jud_T]

I can't say there are any holes at OM that sink the sub.  I don't have any problem with 17, particularly as it often comes at a critical moment in a match where I'm usually getting a bump! And a really cool green as I recall, although my partner managed to get his shorts in a twist about it.

[Jud_T]

I wish the right side of the Double Plateau green was used for pin positions and I wish the front of the Biarritz hole was used for pins as well.  I understand the reasoning behind not using them but it would allow each hole to play as intended and in the case of #8 really improve the hole.

David,

What's you're issue with #8 with the back pin?  Isn't that how most Biarritz greens are pinned and played?

[JLahrman]

#7 was my favorite hole, but I was expecting it to be.

I didn't really care for #7. I understand that there needs to be a hole that goes up the dune to provide an ocean view, but I didn't really like the approach into that green. I also thought #8 would be more interesting if it did not play so far downhill, and #12 into the winter wind is just too long of a shot (though I understand that the course was designed for the summer wind).

However...while I've only been to Bandon once, OM was probably my favorite based on my one visit.

[David Kelly]

I wish the right side of the Double Plateau green was used for pin positions and I wish the front of the Biarritz hole was used for pins as well.  I understand the reasoning behind not using them but it would allow each hole to play as intended and in the case of #8 really improve the hole.

David,

What's you're issue with #8 with the back pin?  Isn't that how most Biarritz greens are pinned and played?

Its not an issue I have with the back pin it is an issue of only pinning the back part of the green.  The front of OM's Biarritz is cut to green height and has plenty of room for pins but it isn't used (at least hasn't been unless they changed) because an edict from Mike Keiser as I understand it because of what he perceives as pace of play issues.  I don't have a problem with the hole but I think it could be even better.

[Patrick Kiser]

One more thing and it's in regards to the 8th Biarritz...

At least for me, I feel part of the fun is NOT being able to see the swale so much.

I felt the tee was so elevated that there wasn't too much of the surprise element going on. You don't really see the ball disappear then reappear.

But maybe that's just me.

[Kirk Moon]

The Redan:  the perched green wrecks it for me.  I thought the whole idea of a redan was to give the player the option of bringing the ball in low on the right front and having it feed back around to left back pin positions.  The big rise at the front of the entire green on this hole mandates an aerial approach to the green before any of the right to left feed can take place.  In contrast, I loved the redan at the 17th on Pacific Dunes.  Even better, I loved the chute that Mr. Doak created on the approach to the green on the par 5 12th at Pacific Dunes which functions very much like a redan and which richly rewards a low running shot into the green to get around the left front trap instead of a direct aerial approach.  Not a real redan, but functionally similar.

The Maiden:  too steep/severe.  I hit a really solid drive just to the right of the center fairway bunkers only to see it roll back 40 yards.  I then hit a solid iron into the green, saw it bounce up onto the putting surface, only to see it reappear rolling off of the front of the green and back down the fairway 30 yards.  Still don't know exactly what happened (? hit flagstick).  Silly to hit two really solid shots and be penalized over 70 yards.  Not to mention its a killer to walk up the hill.  Didn't mind doing the big climb on seven because the payoff was worth it.  Fourteen?  Nahhhhh.  Nice view.  That's about it. 

[Chris Johnston]

I enjoyed them all, but a few ate my lunch.

#9 was sneaky in match play, in particular the approach.

Never did figure out the finish - hitting it sideways never helps.

[William_G]

the 17th, Littlestone is a tough hole...with the tees up you have a chance for an eagle putt, but that putt could be the first of three putts as the green is massive...with Tom Doak's perspective of the 4th at the Lido, it adds substance to it's difficulty

the 4th, Hogsback is also tough in that it usually requires 2 well struck long shots to be close to the hole

the 12th, Redan, is the most difficult birdie hole on the course

I would be happy playing any of the holes at Old Macdonald ad inifitum, as long as the hole and tee locations changed, LOL

thanks

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