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Rich_Goodale

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2001, 11:44:04 PM »
Interesting Topic.

To me trying to compare art (including music) to GCA demeans both GCA and art.  To compare an organic and mutable matrix such as the Old Course to an object frozen in time such as the cave paintings of Lescaux both underestimates the temporal dynamics of the latter and the timelessness of the former.

That being said, I will offer The Who, Bach, Joyce, Heller, Bosch, Yeats, Vermeer, Ace Morland, Caravaggio, Poussin, Eliot, Browning, Picasso, Turner, and Randy and the Rainbows as just some of the influences on my perception of what some call "life".

I will also postulate my belief that there is no golf course architect that I know of or whose work I have seen who yet deserves entry into that very inclusive pantheon.  What they do and have done gives us great pleasure, but, at leat to me, it it ain't art.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night......

Rich "One of the few people on active duty in the US Army in 1969 to get a 3-day pass to attend Woodstock" Goodale
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2001, 07:54:12 AM »
Rich
Mutable matrix? What's that?

Explain to me the differing temporal dynamics required for a man creating an image on a cave wall illustrating an experience, a man creating a rythmic compostition with a stick and a hollow log that moves him and a man with club and projectile laying out a course through the dunes that is fun, challenging and exhilirating. It seems to me art evolved from the basic human desire to express oneself in ways that both he and/or others can find enjoyment - dance, garden art, poetry, cooking are all art forms in my mind -- it when it does really well it is sublime.  Alister MacKenzie, C.H.Alison and Stanley Thompson are artists.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2001, 02:14:38 PM »
Rich:

You don't think a great golf course architect is an artist? Are you saying a golf course architect cannot possibly be an artist for some reason? Do you think a golf course architect is a misnomer for those who design golf courses?

Maybe we should call them exterior investigators of nature for the purpose of identifying what can be used and how and what needs to constructed and how to design a course on which people can play golf.

We could probably shorten it in an acronym to EIs (exterior investigators) or EDs (exterior designers) and we can blame the previous mixup and the misnomer on C.B. MacDonald who apparently first came up with the term. Old C.B. was known to be a bit grandiose and somewhat bombastic!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2001, 10:44:04 PM »
Tom MacW

To me a golf course is a chessboard with an infinite number of squares, some of which are more strategically significant than others.  The journey between these squares is what constitutes a “round” of golf.  The nature of this chessboard (or matrix) changes (mutates) over periods of time ranging from decades to seconds, as the result of a variety of forces--including geology, meteorology, technology and psychology.  To me a golf course is a template within which one can express oneself, while art is an expression in and of itself.  And so…..

Tom P

….GCA is not art, to me.  Yes, it requires talent and it provides pleasure, but so do many other professions, including the oldest one.  That does not make these professionals artists nor their works art.  Which leads me to another thread which asks the question as to whether or not archies get better with age, and……

…..in that the opinions there seemed to mostly argue “yes ” (and do so convincingly), this would seem to me to be evidence that GCA is more of a trade that can be learned than an act of expression from which we can learn, independent of our participation, just by observing, to paraphrase the great YogiBakaLawrence......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2001, 11:59:09 PM »
Brains,

What an incredibly antiseptic view of Golf Architecture!

I suppose your position ultimately begs the question on form vs. function in the "trade." Is art confined only to disciplines completely separate from useful objects?  

Just out of curiosity, when a landscape architect designs a particularly beautiful garden that is meticulously maintained in its original form for many years, is he also a tradesman?

Does the aesthetically pleasing arrangement of statues, flowers, foliage and water not constitute the creation of art?

Does not a meticulously preserved (or "restored" in the case of NGLA) golf course - with its arrangements of landforms and embellishments in the form of bunkers and water - not fall under the heading of art?

Everything is temporal, even your cave etchings. The Sistine Chapel slowly degrades just as does the Mona Lisa or a beautiful building or even something as simple as a flower arrangement.

A 1968 Camaro SS if a functional vehicle that is fun to drive. But if the lines and body style pique my aesthetic sensibilities, is it not art? By extention, is the creator not an artist rather than a tradesman?

Is a Wilkes Bashford suit the same as the animal hide that warms your cave painter?    

Even a beautifully choreographed ballet is never presented exactly the same way twice - even by the same dancer.

Artistic expression can be found in far more places than in the confines of its traditional definition.

In my opinion, every time a human being intentionally creates something pleasing to the eye - regardless of the function of the object - I believe it is art.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2001, 04:49:55 AM »
Rich:

You have an interesting take on golf course architecture! You seem to view it through the classical definition of what consitutes art and you appear to find it doesn't measure up to that definition. Certainly some "definitions" or "art" do not include architecture as part of what's classically considered "fine art".

Be that as it may, you do seem to view golf course architecture (or golf courses) as examples of creations for recreational "freedom" and enjoyment--and that is certainly what some designers and builders of golf courses in and with  the architecture of their creations intended!

You also seem to be, from what I've seen of you and read from you, to be possibly as "pure" a golfer as any of us. It seems to me that to you golf is mostly in just the playing of the game and all that can do for you (or any person). Actually that is very cool to me and very well might be exactly what some of the best architects of golf courses intended to create and accomplish! That very well may be the ultimate example of a very good and thoughtful architect's desire to hide the hand of man in whatever he created for the best and most complete recreation in the game of golf.

I'm really not speaking of his desire to create something that only visually hid man's hand but something that excentuated the "positive" in a golfer to inspire his sense of "freedom" in playing the game and selecting and hitting his shots! In this way Behr's thought on hazards were "pressure areas acting upon the mind. They make a call upon intelligence."

 He didn't want hazards to be simply a mirror to the golfer of his own faults but as a stimulus and inspiration to notice the "positive" of the playing field and to strategize his way around the course using that positive inspiration (areas other than hazards).  

There are probably a few more nuances to discuss on this subject with you that involve "definitions" of what "art" is or isn't, but in the meantime, I see many parallels in your thinking with that of the extremely cerebral Max Behr!

I feel, however, that you and Behr, might have many points of agreement when viewing golf architecture from the perspective of the golfer but from the perspective of the designer (architect) you may be very far apart.

In the latter one wonders what the architect/creator is really doing and how he views what he creates. Is it for himself or is it to inspire others? Obviously a good deal of both. You talk of painters and such (defined as artists) as creating something that's an expression. But could it be an expression intended to be only independent of others (viewers)? Personally, I don't think so! It certainly would be an expression of the artist but also certainly one intended by him to inspire others somehow.

In this way I would say that golf architecture might just be an example of art for true interaction of the observer, and maybe quite unique in that way with other forms of art!

There is an essay by Behr entitled "The correct use of Penalty" that you have to read if you haven't already. There are some uncanny similarities in the essay between the thinking and discussion on this very topic between us! Really uncanny similarities!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2001, 05:45:51 AM »
Gib,

I am not going make you fall out of your chair.  Unfortunately, as I would have loved to pretend to be an aficionado, I have never heard of the albums you mentioned.  I love "Dark Side of the Moon", "Wish You Were Here", "The Wall", and "Animals".  Watching the Pig fly out of the ceiling during one of their concerts is one of my first memories of realizing my love for music.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tom MacWood (Guest)

What is art?
« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2001, 06:05:35 AM »
Rich
Mutable matrix and a complex chessboard, I think you've been watching too many Star Treck episodes. An infinate number of squares, kind of like the infinite number of combination of notes and musical instraments available to the artist who creates music.

You have a very narrow view of art, as TE indicates perhaps you take the very orthodox 'fine arts' approach - although based on your odd criteria, which attempts to exclude golf architecture as art, I'm beginning to wonder if you consider anything art - certainly not the actor who matures and learns his craft.

'The nature of this chessboard (or matrix) changes (mutates) over periods of time ranging from decades to seconds'-I suspect this also excludes architecture, including the Colosium and the Pyramids, from art. Or a Dirk Van Erp copper lamp or a painting from the Rennaisance both of which take on a patina with age. What of the improvisational tradition of the jazz artist?

And of course when a variety of natural forces are involved--including geology, meteorology, technology and psychology--we must look upon it as non-art. I must conclude you do not consider wine-making an art - where the finished product is affected by so many varying factors including terrior.

I suspect at the root of your view of golf architecture are two elements. One, as TE points out you simply enjoy playing the game and have never given much thought to the art of golf design - no crime in that. For somone as well read on so many subjects, golf architecture has slipped under your radar screen, therefore if you have no knowledge of it, it must not be art. Second and maybe most importantly your unending love and focus upon Royal Dornoch combined with its somewhat fuzzy architectural lineage has forced you to take a very suspect view of golf architecture and the roll of the golf architect.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2001, 06:49:26 AM »
I can't help but think of these exhibits that call into the question the existance of the NEA and thier funding. I personally don't think standing on the American flag and writting down what I feel, is art. But I do defend the guy who thinks it is and his right to call it what he wants. And while I may pity the fool that actually purchases it, I wouldn't give him a nickle to experience it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ken_Cotner

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2001, 07:08:34 AM »
Dan King,
I knew you were a Renaissance man, but what a book list!  Heck, everyone's list is amazing.  Nice ideas for my next purchase...

Gib,
It was a tough call between "Oh, The Places You Go" and "Green Eggs and Ham".  Hey, I wonder if Kilfara was in the Harvard graduating class that greeted Dr. Seuss with an en masse recitation of the entire "Green Eggs and Ham" at graduation?

Rich,
Just to pile on...in my simple mind, golf course design has to be an art.  I liken it to Miles Davis writing "So What".  It has a strict chord structure, yet leaves infinite room for the player to creatively improvise, yielding maximum pleasure when it works.  The path the player chooses is influenced by his mood, the audience, band members, etc.

Similarly, a good golf course design adheres to basic structural principles (holes with a teeing ground and green; sound routing; etc.), yet encourages the player to try different ways to get from tee to hole.  The path the player chooses is influenced by many variables (weather, other players, confidence, etc.)

Presumptiously,
KC
np:  Los Lobos box set "El Cancionero: Mas y Mas"
nr (now reading):  "Fellowship of the Rings" (trying to catch up with my 8 year-old)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2001, 09:27:05 AM »
Gib, the two Toms and Ken

Thanks for the thoughts, all of which are well expressed.  There are a lot of dimensions at work in this conversation.  One is whether “art” is best defined as a continuum or some sort of binary choice.  I can live with the “inclusive”/continuum school, if it is recognized that it means that you include the daily drawings of my 4-year old just as much as the Chevy Camaro, landscaped gardens, Pine Valley AND Rancho del Pueblo, any score which inspires Miles Davis to play his music, and the sculptures of Praxiteles or Henry Moore. All are art” in some sense. Nevertheless, even if you believe this theory, you must also recognize that, as Napoleon once said, in effect, “All art is created equal, but some art is more equal than others.”  Even in a relativistic universe, there is as much of a quantum difference to me between NGLA and any of Turner’s paintings as there is between how I and Paul Robeson would play Othello, if given the same supporting cast, stage settings and costumes.

Which brings me to the interactive dimension.  For most “art” the interaction between the artist and the observer is passive and personal.  The Parthenon just sits there and we can not do much more than look at it, albeit through different lenses of experience, preference and observational skill.  A golf course, on the other hand is more like a musical score or a screenplay in that the “artistry” which is expressed is at least partly dependent on the actions of the participants.  I can read music well enough to play any note that Mile Davis can.  Only the most diehard deconstructionists, however, would call what I produced in this experiment as “art.”  In music and drama (and in some “performance” art), the “art” is in the playing.    When Tiger Woods plays Pebble Beach, who is the “artist?”  Tiger, or Chandler Egan or Jack Neville or Robert Hunter, or even the great MacKenzie?  To me it is Tiger.  To others it may be one of more of the archies who had a hand in creating the matrix of the the venue.

Which leads me to the question of the relationship between art and the artist.  Can something like Pebble Beach, or Pine Valley, or TOC or Dornoch be considered a  “work of art” if  it evidences the hands of many people, over broad swatches of time?  Would “The Last Supper” still be considered a work of art if Poussin had redone the architecture and  in the 17th century and David redone the figures in the 18th and Jordaens added a Flemish touch to the food on the table and Degas softened the faces of the Disciples and Van Gogh added some texture to the background sky?  To me art is, if nothing else, an expression.  Of one person.  When Gielgud played Hamlet, there were two art forms on display—Shakespeare’s and Sir John’s.  Tom MacW is very right that my feeling on this matter are strongly influenced by my experience at and understanding of Dornoch.  I know of and can see many hands on that most beautiful course—some from a variety of architects, trained and avocational, some from superintendents—the good, the bad, the ugly and the inspired, some from the actions of time—shifting sands, the subtle emergence of “poofs” on greens and in fairways, and some from the actions of players themselves.

PS to this final note—one man’s “patina” is another’s “green rust.”  Pyramids, paintings and sculptures erode.  Golf courses evolve—many very much for the better.  And, Tom MacW--great Fruedian tyop in the "roll" of achies phrase.

Tom P

I was very much thinking of Behr when I thought of the cheesboard analogy.  As in chess, there are “good” and “bad” “squares” on any golf course, and these change from day to day and from person to person.  As Tom H has said on another thread, players of different ability have different “hazards.”  Those lesser mortals such as Tom’s Dad and myself can “tack” around squares that are hazardous to us, but inconsequential to Jamie Slonis or Matt Ward.  And yet, on some days, due to winds, or the maintenance meld, or the fact that I ate two bowls of porridge for breakfast, I might even just try to carry that swale that I usually get trapped in.  On other days, that bunker that I normally fly looks as if it is licking it's lips in anticipation of gobbling up my ball.  This is one of the great fascinations of golf, but it is inherent in the nature and rules of the sport itself—NOT a results of some dilettantes “art.”  To me, "lines of charm" are just the possible strategies for playing a hole, and they varying from day to day.  A great course allows these variations to be multiple and interesting--that's all.  IMHO.

Ken C

Keep “piling on.”  I agree with most of what you say, and have tried to incorporate responses above.

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2001, 09:50:22 AM »
Wow.

I sit in stunned silence.

OK you guys, PLEASE don't give up here.  Your thoughts are what drew this out of Rich and for that I say THANK YOU ONE AND ALL!

Talk about an educational thread....

Many thanks, Mr. Goodale.

To say I have nothing to add is the understatement of the year.  Carry on, gentlemen.

One aside though:  Rich, jeez, I thought my Dad was literate... only you... and he... could mention all of those historic/cultural figures in one "thought".... I gotta remember to stick to the simple when I'm with either of you.  The pressure is too great.  The cool thing re both of you is, however, you can "dumb down" for us mortals.  I never thought I'd meet anyone like my Dad but this post confirms it - Rich, you are far younger than him, but you are of his ilk.  I hope you realize I can give no greater compliment.

TH

ps - you're also a WAY WAY WAY better golfer than he is!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2001, 10:02:43 AM »
Rich
You are correct - in fact many have removed the patina from a Van Erp lamp, only to learn they had wiped away thousands of dollars from their object of art.

With Tiger playing Pebble, I'd say they are all correct, Woods is artist, as are Egan, Hunter, MacKenzie, Grant, Nevil are all artists, although not equal in the artistic abilities or artistic contributions. Just as Perlman is an artist, playing the work of artist Bach, with instrament created by an artist/craftsman.

Golf courses are no different than architecture or sculpture or painting - they evolve over time, and with age they may actually improve either by the hand of man of through natural aging - William Morris believed that was true when he formed the Society to Protect Ancient Buildings. And golf courses can also unfortunately erode - the Pacific course at Olympic and Sharp Park are two nearby examples.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Things I Don't Understand
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2001, 10:03:12 AM »
(1) I find it a little hard to understand  :o how, after 60-some posts in this thread -- a thread I've avoided till now, in the certain knowledge that [a] I wouldn't be able to resist contributing; and my contributions would add little to the world's knowledge of Golf Course Architecture (not to mention music, literature, or any of the other universally acknowledged Arts) -- no one has mentioned {I} Gregorian chant, {II} operatic arias, or {III} the Vienna Boys Choir.

Those are my ideas of thrilling music, along with (off the top of my head, and among many others) the Beatles, the Beach Boys (not that awful Christmas stuff, though), Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Aaron Copland, Richie Havens, Bonnie Raitt, Howlin' Wolf's "London Sessions" (I think that's the name), Eartha Kitt's "Santa Baby," and "I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas."

(2) To Rich Goodale --

In regard to your shorthand definition of Art, "an expression in and of itself": Are you saying that the doodles in my desk drawer might qualify as Art -- but Sand Hills doesn't? If so: I think your definition is seriously flawed (no matter the quality of my doodles).

I'd be curious to see how you'd flesh out your definition of Art.

I, for my part, don't understand why, century after century -- including, now, in this 21st one anno Domini -- human beings feel the need to codify Art (and to list the endeavors that qualify), so as to distinguish them from other (presumably lesser) endeavors, including those much-maligned "crafts" and "trades".

I, personally, wouldn't care to define "Art" -- any more than Justice Stewart cared to define "Obscenity" when he wrote that he knew it when he saw it.

But if I were forced to define Art, I'd make sure to define it broadly -- so as to include ANYTHING (useful or useless, concrete or intangible) created with an eye toward opening the viewer's mind to new possibilities in life and previously unrecognized meanings of life.

Isn't it perfectly obvious that some music is Art, and some isn't; that some writing is Art, and some isn't; that some architecture is Art, and some isn't; that some movies are Art, and some aren't; that some golf courses are Art, and some (OK, almost all) aren't?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Ken_Cotner

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2001, 10:29:17 AM »
I just read through this thread, and am very humbled.  There is a ton of good stuff here.  But I can't resist continuing...

Rich,
I subscribe to the "big tent" definition, but your point is really well stated.  And my art historian wife would say that not only are your 4 year-old's drawings "art", but that children's art, untarnished by education and training, can be "more equal".

TomMac, TEP, Gib,
Ditto.

Adam,
Interesting comment on the NEA.  My liberal/non-Libertarian/art-loving bride has argued that public monies should not be used to fund art.  I respectfully disagree, although that creates the sticky question of where one draws the line.

Dan Kelly,
One of our favorite CD's is "Monastic Chants in the High Desert", some Gregorian chants from a cool monastery in northern New Mexico called Christ in the Desert.

I'm off to run around my golf course now -- somehow the green undulations look more pronounced and cool when the Bermuda fairways are dormant, and I'm not trying to play the holes.

Ken "Waaaay out his league, now" Cotner
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2001, 12:00:10 PM »
Dan

I tried to clarify what I menat in our posts that crossed, but I guess I'm basically in the Potter Stewart camp when it comes to "defining" art or what is a "great" golf course to me--I know 'em when I see 'em, but not much more.  In general, I find it hard to consider GCA as an "art" but I can't right now say why I beleive this any more than what I've already tried to express.  I also don't consider Tiger Woods to be an "artist," despite his tremendous talent and creativity.

To me, golf is, above all, a game, and I would much rather compete in a stroke play competition at Rancho del Pueblo than walk Cypress Point, because learning what I am able to do on any given day with a stick in my hands and a ball on the ground is much more exciting to me than any bump or hollow or vista created or discovered by a man or his gods.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2001, 12:09:10 PM »
Interesting... Rich, you and I are quite similar in this, and I'll even excuse you for your continued use of my "home course" as the example of a s h i t t y golf course!  It is, but you don't have to rub it in!

 ;)

One clarification though, and a point on which we might differ:  is the competition the thing for you, or the pure "golf"?

See, I'm with ya, I'd rather play RDP than walk Cypress, but my round at RDP would be amongst friends or played solo rather than in a stroke-play competition amongst unknowns.... I've done way too much of that over the years...   To me the main competition is always myself, hell even in match play if that makes sense.  I've won matches I really lost and lost matches I've really won.

Sorry for the tangent away from the "art" discussion, which I "get" but to which I still have nothing to contribute.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2001, 12:17:21 PM »
Brains,

You write:  "Even in a relativistic universe, there is as much of a quantum difference to me between NGLA and any of Turner’s paintings as there is between how I and Paul Robeson would play Othello, if given the same supporting cast, stage settings and costumes."

This entire discussion is coming down to nothing more complex than a measurement of the elasticity of each individual's definition of "art."

That said, I am having difficulty grasping how a comparison between NGLA and Turner's paintings is even theoretically possible given your line of reasoning.

I can understand the  difference between Robeson and Goodale being compared in the same performance art, just as I can articulate the reason NGLA is aesthetically and strategically superior to Coyote Creek - regardless of what label you want to hang on the creation or creator.

Just out of curiosity, if your little girl's  etchings do not reach the threshold of your definition of art, then where is the line drawn? The question is better explored in steps of grey than black and white.

Can you quantify line, tone, color, texture and composition in making a determination between your daughter and Degas? Can you do the same with the sentiment expressed in a poem (I'm stealing from CB Mac here)?

P.S.: I see you have replaced the Royal Kabul caption. I still don't quite know how to accomplish that. Of course, because my son pointed to a plastic model of Fred Flintstone last week and said "Daddy," there may be no reason to change what I've got.

Whether cartoon drawings count as "art" is a question best avoided at this point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2001, 12:49:09 PM »
Rich --

I guess the only remaining question is: Would you rather ...

(a) play Rancho del Pueblo, or

(b) walk Royal Dornoch?

;)

As for me: I'd rather walk Cypress Point than play Rancho del Pueblo. Not for a lifetime, mind you, but on any given day. Easy choice.

I'd walk around Cypress, swinging invisible clubs (playing prudently, but with an occasional spurt of derring-do), hitting most of the fairways and a bunch of the greens (though occasionally lodging in the face of one of those lovely bunkers -- just for variety's sake).

Even as I write, I can see my big knockdown driver cutting its way into a fair breeze as it flies toward 16 ... it lands ... hops ... comes to a stop just on the back fringe. I turn toward my genial host, grin (thinking: "Take THAT, Bing! And why don't you be a little nicer to your kids, in your next life, so I can stop thinking 'What a phony baloney' every time I hear one of your Christmas songs?"), and say: "Well, thank you, Mr. Crosby. It WAS a nice little shot, wasn't it? Thank you very much."



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2001, 12:55:17 PM »
Rich:

Very interesting stuff! I must say I don't agree with you that golf architecture is "non-art"--I don't agree in any sense although you've presented some interesting ideas, analogies and contexts to make your point and your feeling that golf course architecture is non-art!

The fact that a golf course and its architecture is not something that in every case is solely and only observable (like a painting on a wall) seems to have no real relevance--at least to me. That kind of distinction seems to me to be one that someone thought up and is a wholly arbitrary idea! In other words, there seems to be no good reason why art could not be interactive with the observer and physically interactive at that, as is golf and its architecture. I can think of no logical reason why only solely observable art would be any more valid or definitive as art than another art-form that is both observable and interactive! Actually it would be interesting to make a case that solely observable art would be less valid, in some cases and contexts!

As for your point that golf courses (and their architecture) are mutable and shouldn't be considered art because of that also has no real validity to me in the context of a golf architect's "art form". The best golf architects, in my opinion, are those that understand that mutability the best! They seem to be the very ones who adhere to the mutability of nature and practice architectural priniciples that meld best with the mutability of nature. They practice an art form that they don't expect to remain static and even welcome that which is mutable and actually create their features and designs accordingly.

I don't even think we should try to get into the various definitions of others as to what exactly constitutes art! For my purposes I'm content to use and stick with the dictionary definiton of one of many dictionaries I use which is: "1. The quality, production, expression or realm of what is beautiful, or of more than ordinary significance."

This to me answers those that include almost anything and everything into the definition of "art" as well as those who limit art's definition to what seems inordinately and illogically restrictive.

And your analogy of Sir John Gielgud performing Shakespeare as as an example of two combining art forms, while your example of Tiger playing Pebble as an art form while failing to recognize Pebble also as an art form seems the most illogical of all. I suppose Gielgud might be able to perform something in a parking lot as would Tiger but I don't think it would be as beautiful or significant as the actor performing Shakespeare on stage or the golfer performing his art on Pebble!

But all this about whether golf architecture really fits within some definition of "art" is all sort of irrelevant to me in this particular discussion with you. What I think is relevant is that you don't seem to have much apprection for what a golf architect really does. I think you have some understanding of how he does what he does so that's why I have concern about how you seem to minimize the significance and the beauty of what the best of the golf architects do or at least can do!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2001, 12:58:44 PM »
Dan - wouldn't walking Cypress and NOT being able to play it be a form of torture?  I mean, if we're gonna imagine golf shots, who needs to see the actual course?

This subject has been broached before, and it's what separates me from the real "students" of architecture in here.  To me golf is still all in the playing of it.

Having played Cypress twice, perhaps this isn't a fair question... a tougher call for me would be playing RDP or walking Pine Valley.  Now I'd never turn down a chance to see that shrine, so I guess if walking it was all that was available, I'd sure as hell take it.  I'd also be dying that I couldn't play....

In any case, a round with great friends at RDP would still be more fun for me, and that's what this is all about, in my view.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2001, 01:00:52 PM »
Rich,

So I guess your would rather have sex with Rosanne Barr than see Nicole Kidmann naked?

It seems nearly the same sort of question as the Rancho del Pueblo and Cypress Point comparison.

Huckster,
I thought I would just boil it down to a level everyone can understand. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2001, 01:11:38 PM »
NOW you're down to my level -- thanks, Gib!

I await the answer from Rich.  This oughtta be good.

 ;D

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2001, 01:28:56 PM »
.... And the score going in to the championship rounds is:

The Doyen 3
 The Resident Genius 3
And the rest of the apostles 3

Well rowed, gentlemen ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #74 on: December 26, 2001, 01:45:03 PM »
Rich, I notice that you also seem to rationalize minimizing golf arcthitecture to less than "art" by relegating the entire subject of golf (and its architecture) to just a game!

That it is, but that should not relegate it to less than significant in the context of art. It is a game, a pastime, but a wholly unusual one because of the variety and uniqueness of its many playing fields. Going to observe art in an art museum is also a pastime, although one not as physically testing as golf but probably just as inspiring to some and maybe more so to others in some psychological way!

I noticed that someone asked you if you would prefer playing Rancho del Pueblo to walking Royal Dornoch. I don't think that's a particularly good question for you. To me a better question for you would be would you prefer playing Rancho del Pueblo to playing a Merion or Cypress, or would you feel the same about playing any of them since it's just a game and they all are, in your opinion, just matrixes or chessboards.

But if you would prefer playing a Merion or Cypress to Rancho del Pueblo, then why would that be? Is Merion or Cypress a more beautiful and significant chessboard than Rancho del Pueblo? And if so, why? If so, I think we are getting a bit closer to ending up on the same page or at least in the same book!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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