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Gib_Papazian

Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« on: December 20, 2001, 02:10:49 PM »
It occurs to me in reading previous threads that the Treehouse is full of devotees of art and especially music far removed from the mainstream.

The study of golf design is an esoteric subject - one persued by less than 1% of those who bat the pellet down the fairway.

Does it follow that, as a group, our cumulative tastes are "different" (read: more refined) than the mainstream?

Is there a relationship between, for instance, a person who has an affinity for Lahinch or North Berwick and one who listens to Pink Floyd (modern era) or Stan Kenton?

Has there ever been a true architecture afficianado who bought into the disco movement?

Personally, I love quirky, offbeat golf courses  like The Pit, but also went to 154 Grateful Dead shows.

Is there any parallel?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2001, 02:49:19 PM »
Gib,
As a former member of the Dead's road crew, I happy to report that Ramrod, Mickey's drum tech and former Merry Prankster loved golf as much as we do. A few of us always had the clubs in the back of the Peterbuilts, and we played wherever we could.
Does the fact that I like Coltrane, Davis, Garcia, Bill Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, or Eddie Vetter mean that I will like golf architecture? I would be suprised if there was any connection on a conscious level. Am I suprised that a person that has so much passion for music that he sees a band over a hundred times also has a passion for a different organic form of art ? Not in the least.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2001, 03:45:30 PM »
That's a darn good couple of questions you raise Gib.  I think it merits a serious survey and study by a good psychologist.  Do we have any GCAers that are in the field and would like to devise a survey relating our design devotions and tastes to other forms of art we might be drawn towards?  After reading MacWood's "Arts and Crafts" series, I have little doubt some interesting correlations might be uncovered.  

I have always been very curious about some of the GCA fanatics and their frequent digressions into the hard rock culture, with which I am very unfamiliar.   Is it merely the age crossection of our group, or something else in play?  

I very much like the varied forms of music and the talants of musicians in many styles of music from jazz, to R&B, to classical, to country.  Yet, I have a near aversion to the extremes of hard rock, punk rock, acid rock, or rappin that I have noted some of our high performance golfers and design keen afficianados allude to their appetite for those stylings in their posts.  Is this the missing link in my mental musical repertoire that correlates to my inability to play golf well, consistently?   :-/

What about tastes in other art forms?  If you love MacKenzie will you love Bach, or Beethoven, or Mozart?  Do you favor Da Vinci or Buonarotti paintings?  If you are a Doak fan, do you have a tendency to appreciate Duke Ellington, over Bennie Goodman, or Degas over Toulouse-Lautrec?  If you are a Axeland and Proctor fan, do you like Remmington or Jackson?  (I like Jackson, and I love the Buffalo Bill Cody Western Art Museum, if you can't guess!  ;)  )
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ed_Baker

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2001, 03:51:20 PM »
Hanging in my living room are a set of London Cries hand colored by Francis Wheatley in the 1800's under which sits the most hideous looking ,circa 1966, naugahyde barcalounger that is the most comfortable piece of furniture I have ever had the pleasure of depositing my considerable ass in. Next to the barcalounger a beaten up 1967 Fender Bandmaster amplifier sits with my latest Stratocaster resting against it, 3 original bullseye putters(with fluted shafts) an automatic "putt returner" and a ball retriever to get "rottweiler" effected putts out from under the Camel back couch. Across the room a butlers tray displays pewter,Dedham pottery,and a 400 year old english knife box with pearl "feet". Underneath a leather chinese writing box contains sheet music for 150 songs of the sixties and seventies, my equity certificate from my club, my fathers last handicap card,my DD 214, and a zippo lighter with a bullet hole in it.

Refined? Maybe not.
Diverse, yep.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2001, 04:24:11 PM »
Quirky, diverse, eclectic,tasteful,distastefull; It's all in the history of our lives and our experiences. Like a good routing we should all just go with the flow. Two rules ; No cheating and No speeding ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2001, 04:56:51 PM »
Gib,

My perspective on music often depended upon who I was dating at the time.  ;D



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2001, 05:26:07 PM »
When in New York I too made sure not to miss a Dead show at MSG.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2001, 05:38:24 PM »
(Back from a trip to Catatonia) I think a lot of us have strong passions for honesty in design.  To see creations of the human mind. We are bombarded daily by classic rock, muzak, smooth jazz, pop country, pop rock, pop punk, pop rap, pop et cetera and its a bit pacifying and detaching. Programmed to offend the least amount of people.   But when that certain gem of a sound floats through and grabs our deep attention, that moment becomes a shared connection.  
  I remember the first time I heard "Nine to the Universe" by Jimi Hendrix.  It was my discovery of jazz freedom through the purity of a master.  It was on his level and he made us pay attention to understand the flow of his spirit.
  The progressive aggressiveness of Emerson, Lake and Palmer's "Brain Salad Surgery" torqued my expectations of what rock could be.  I've also tested the limits of my eardrums with Robin Trower's "Bridge of Sighs" -- over and over and over again.  I still love it.  
  A lifetime with the complete Jethro Tull repertoire swimming through my head has skewed my view of every topic of life imaginable.  It's a strange peculiarity but there it is. I'm stuck with it.
 Discovering new sounds, or old ones (they're new to me).  I'm just as satisfied rediscovering sounds.  Cherry Poppin' Daddies! Iconoclastic and energetic.  Martin Simpson, pure wonder at his gift with a guitar. Ricky Lee Jones, individualistic and raw and intriguing.  If you catch me singing in my truck - it's probably Hoyt Axton. Busted.    
  So when I'm on a golf course and I see vision, uniqueness and a high worth ethic weaved with nature, I'm moved and can only muddle a drifty explanation why, you'll see a big goofy grin on my face.
 

 Ed, How'd you get that bullet hole in your Zippo?

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2001, 05:55:45 PM »
I've thought about this quite a bit. I am artiscally inclined and I do think golf architecture is a form of art. I know personally my tastes in music leans toward the unusual - Marley, Dead, R&B, Jobim, Jazz, Byrne and the usual suspects (Beatles, Stones, Doors, PFloyd, etc). And although I hardly know anything about Classical, it fascinates me and enjoy it. In fact when I was writing the A&C piece I listened to Classical exclusively, I thought it might get me in the right frame of mind - plus I hoped it might help make me sound smarter. I think you might find those who are great fans of the old and new courses that exhibit quirkiness, naturalness and variety - will also have a variety of interests, and perhaps a few unusaul or quirky tastes, with an emphasis on the aesthetic side, although that aesthetic might not match the conventional aesthetic.

I believe one of the reasons that the courses of the past worked as well as they did, was not necessarily because the individual designers were artistically inclined (although many of them were), but that their entire society and culture was artistically inclined. I'm not sure that is the case today.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2001, 09:53:41 PM »
I think many of us are less likely to being taken in by marketing hype. Therefore, we are more interested in architecture, less popular music, something other than the two-party system and less conventional art.

A friend of mine met up with me on one of my trips to Scotland. We were driving from Cruden Bay to Dornoch, when he spotted a McDonalds. He was really excited and insisted we stop there. In a country with wonderful ethnic food he was thrilled to spot a McDonalds. It ain't because of the quality of food.

Popular music is at least 90% hype. Those that aren't as easily taken in my marketing will look elsewhere for quality music and find it in less popular places. These same people are also not going to be taken in by the golf magazines and pgatour® telling them what is and isn't a good course. We're going to do the leg work necessary so we can figure out on our own what makes a course great.

Quote
When I was small I believed in Santa Claus
Though I knew it was my dad
And I would hang up my stocking at Christmas
Open my presents and I'd be glad

But the last time I played Father Christmas
I stood outside a department store
A gang of kids came over and mugged me
And knocked my reindeer to the floor
 --Ray Davies
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2001, 07:14:58 AM »
Jeez, well and perfectly stated, Dan.  That about sums it up.

I have a question though:  what happens when one finds onesself getting into one's kids' music?  That is, have I gone insane or mush-minded because I find myself driving along and humming the teeny-pop melodies my 6 year old daugher is living for these days?  Does this mean all overpriced CCFAD's are now gonna suddenly appeal to me?  Help!


[Upside down
bouncing off the ceiling
Inside out
stranger to this feeling
Got no clue
what I should do
Oh I go crazy
When I can't be next to you

The "A-Teens"
[/quote]

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dr. Katz (Guest)

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2001, 08:21:37 AM »
Mr. Huckaby,

Please call my office for an immediate appointment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2001, 08:54:04 AM »
Done.  I sure as hell need it.  I feel confident though that that is the first - and last - time the A-Teens are quoted in this forum.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Hervochon

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2001, 09:22:29 AM »
I eat, sleep, and breathe golf course architecture.  I read books upon books about classical golf courses.  My favorite band is Metallica.  Go figure  8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2001, 10:58:54 AM »
O.K., Chris, I'm glad you went first, because otherwise I wouldn't have posted it, but here goes.  I'm a low-key, clean-cut, graduate-schooled, white-collar guy who loves golf and it's traditions (with a fast-growing appreciation for good architecture), and Metallica is also my favorite band.  Has been since I discovered them in high school 17 years ago.  Seen 'em in concert 5 times.  Of course, I've also seen the Bangles in concert, but they were babes.  Now, if only I could get Karn Evil #9 (1st imp, pt. 2) out of my mind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2001, 11:13:48 AM »
Scott - feel fortunate - read up above to see what I have been unable to get out of my mind....

And hey, nothing but kudos here for Metallica, even from this old-timer.
 ;)
TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2001, 11:20:46 AM »
As I sit here typing, the four CD's in my deck are;

Paul McCartney - Driving Rain (Nothing like the classics - the latest from perhaps the best tunesmith of the last century)
Harry Chapin - Heads & Tales (the late, great balladeer who's songs remind us that there is profound meaning in the seemingly mundane goings on of every day life.)
Nirvana - Nevermind (Wasted talent is an insult to the rest of humanity)
Sting - Brand New Day (Unless one seeks to expand one's horizon (or art), stagnation sets in.)

Give me something created with intelligence, passion, and emotion, and i'm happy.  That's art.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2001, 12:00:05 PM »
Huckster,
Fear not. Father's are powerless when confronted with the  strangely hypnotic powers of their little girl.

However, this will eventually pass - especially when she enters the nose-ring boyfriend - punk rocker  - "Daddy!!! Tell  Mom to quit being a bitch" phase.

Likely, that will quickly drive us back to reality.

The point of posting this thread was to get a feel for just how esoteric and ecclectic our tastes are in music and art.

Maybe it comes down to trying to identify whether this group is overwhelmingly comprised of people who "GET IT." 8) 8)

The sheeple (baaaaaaa) would rather play Pelican Hill than Garden City .  .  . are unable to grasp what makes Bob Dylan or Tom Waits special . . . . still need the underlying themes of 2001 or Clockwork Orange explained to them . . . .  like Penthouse better than Playboy . . . . can't see the difference between Walter Cronkite and Dan Rather . . . or Bill Clinton and Harry Truman .  .  .  like the last three Genesis albums better than the first three  . . . think Jennifer Lopez is better looking than Katherine Hepburn in her prime . . . don't understand what makes the Alps Hole special.    
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2001, 12:18:44 PM »
WHEW!

Well said, Gib.  And I hadn't thought of in terms of hypnotic powers... damn that's true.

I look forward to at least a few more years of this... my perfect cute little angel is only 6 1/2....

PERFECT examples of "getting it" also... particularly re Genesis albums and the Alps hole!

I assume you mean the one at NGLA... Sahara ain't bad either... uh oh, here I go again.

BTW, be sure to look closely at the logo I shall be sporting on my sweater come Sunday... I only bring it out in the company of those who do get it...

 ;D

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2001, 12:42:04 PM »
Just for fun I went over and checked which CDs were in the player:

Los Lobos - Just Another Band From LA
The Classic Hoagy Carmichael
John Hiatt - The Tiki Bar is Open (latest purchase)
Flim & the BBs - Tricycle
Tom Waits - The Heart of Saturday Night

And out in the car:
Might as Well... The Persuasions sing Grateful Dead (GET THIS CD if you love the Dead) ;D

The old hard rock doesn't get played as much as it used to, but it did get a lot of air time this summer as I drove across country with the Futures Tour.  I guess I'm an old timer, I always preferred AC/DC's Back in Black over Metallica.

I would say we are an eclectic bunch, perhaps that is why quirky appeals so much as it isn't just another piece of the same old puzzle.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2001, 01:01:50 PM »
On sat. night, I saw Dark Star Orchestra. This is a must see if you are a Grateful Dead fan. Their premise is to recreate the grateful dead experience, and they are doing a damn good job at it. They choose actual shows and play them in their entirety, for example the show I saw was from The Philly Spectrum on 10/19/89. They announce at the end of the show, what show they have been playing.

The musicianship is superb, they sound exactly like the Grateful Dead. At times I could close my eyes, and I was at a Dead show.

Do yourselves a favor - see this band.

Listen to some of the mp3s on their site:

www.darkstarorchestra.net
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2001, 01:09:33 PM »
In my neverending quest to database everything I own:

What is currently in my CD carousel:
http://www.danking.org/cd.html

Coming soon, what is in my 300 DVD carousel.

How many of you thought the best part of There's Something About Mary was when Jonathan Richman and Tommy Larkin suddenly showed up?

Quote
Well, my love is a flower just beginning to bloom
Like those things from your garden that spring from the gloom.
My love is a flower just beginning to bloom...
Beginning to bloom, to bloom.

My love is a birdie who's just learning to trill.
I must be patient with her now so I will.
My love is a flower just beginning to bloom...
Beginning to bloom, to bloom.

She's still learning to love herself,
She's still learning to let herself go,
And she's still learning to trust herself,
And Jonathan's gotta be patient because I know
That my love is a flower just beginning to bloom
Just like those things from your garden that spring from the gloom.
My love is a flower just beginning to bloom...
She's just beginning to bloom, to bloom.
 --Jonathan Richman
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2001, 01:18:13 PM »
They are all unrevokably connected.

Prime example--the Greg Norman Course at PGA West and Milli Vanilli.

A made-up experience that has absolutely not one ounce of substance or integrity to consider it worthy of ever producing golf that will stand the test of time, but will make a ton of dough while entertaining the non-architecturally understanding hack.

Haven't we been though all of this before?



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ken_Cotner

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2001, 01:18:44 PM »
Gib and all,

I think it boils down to a tendency to be PASSIONATE about an art form (yeah, I know golf architecture is partially science.  So is music).  If one cares deeply about a subject, they will tend to seek out lasting excellence rather than what may be the more popular fare consumed by the general public.  Heck, I spent an hour a couple nights ago deciding on my "Top 10" CD's of 2001 (and best live shows, reissues, etc.)No surprise that GCA'ers may be more on-the-edge with respect to music, visual art, etc.

It ain't universal -- I'm part of the masses when it comes to movies and wine.

JohnV, how is the new Hiatt -- I'm still enjoying Crossing Muddy Waters.  And speaking of Los Lobos, their quasi-new box set is in my player at home.  Regarding your affection for AC/DC, you might appreciate a new song my band is working out -- we call it Angus Haggard!

I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments and musical preferences -- good stuff all over!

Cheers,
Ken "I need some more CD storage for Christmas" Cotner

npaw (now playing at work) -- some Christmas song by Chet Baker
Favorite Holiday Album -- Vince Guaraldi "Theme From A Charley Brown Christmas"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2001, 01:21:06 PM »
Dan, please.  That was indeed cool.  But we both know the best part of There's Something About Mary was when she described her perfect man:  a fat, meat-eating golfer!

It was also beyond cool when she touted "this Montana is really gonna be good" to the derisive laughing of her friends.  I was the only one in the theater laughing at that, as I noticed the DATE they flashed on the screen right before that... fall 1981....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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