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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2012, 11:42:13 AM »
I can't even bring myself to accept a very gracious return invitation to Cypress Point Club.   

I can't justify anything based on "value."  With me it's more of a "life's too damned short."

Bogey

Well, Bogey, I am very disppointed that you didn't assign your invitation to CPC to someone you know who has a score to settle there.

Regarding "value", hear, hear!  Nothing underscores this more than a tragic auto accident this last week that took the life of a distant acquaintance, Ron Eddins, at the young age of 41.  He was the best golfer at a club known for its deep bench, an accomplished lawyer I am told, and an extremely considerate, enjoyable young man the few times I played golf with him.  Enjoy what you can responsibly.  One never knows.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #176 on: January 10, 2012, 11:43:24 AM »
I can't even bring myself to accept a very gracious return invitation to Cypress Point Club.   

I can't justify anything based on "value."  With me it's more of a "life's too damned short."

Bogey

Well, Bogey, I am very disppointed that you didn't assign your invitation to CPC to someone you know who has a score to settle there.


Lou, who's to say I didn't?

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #177 on: January 10, 2012, 11:45:15 AM »
Bogey,

Now I am really depressed and envious.  Time to logout.


Cheers!

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #178 on: January 10, 2012, 05:40:28 PM »
Lou and Brett.  

We are mixing peas and carrots here.  The total all-in "nut" is close to $2M but golf fees are but a part of the revenue stream.  Actually there are 3 to 3-1/2: golf, lodging, F&B, and proshop.  At $150 per round alone, we couldn't make it.  On a very rough basis, we average around $450-$500 per guest/day as follows:

Rough per day estimates:
Golf:  $150 avg.  (Members don't pay golf fees as they do pay dues)
Lodging:  $140 avg.
F&B:  $115 avg.
Shop:  $50 avg.

Roughly, breakeven is then $2M/$450 = 4,400 guest nights.
Roughly, we need to average 32 guests per day to breakeven on a 135 day season, late May to early October.
Roughly, the average is 8 foursomes per day, or 4 eightsomes.
Roughly, with 78 beds, we need to average 41% yield for the year.
Roughly, a member brings 6.5 guests per visit.


I dont mean to be a cat amongst the pigeons here but i have some issues with the math.   To get to the breakeven, you need to look at variable profit, not revenue.   For guest fees and lodging, it all drops to the bottom line since the staff that support it are pretty much fixed feeds, but it doesn't in the shop or F&B.

If you assume 40% margin on the shop and 60% for F&B, your new profit per round is $370 which moves the breakeven close to 5400 rounds, moving the yield significantly higher.   Not undoable but a significant amount more than the first estimates.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #179 on: January 10, 2012, 05:50:40 PM »
For simplicity, the $2 million nut is fully loaded with all costs included and accounted for.  I will grant you that we would see higher varianble expenses if we did, say, 7,000 rounds.

I put the number in for simplicity of discussion, not GAAP or an in-debth analysis or exercise.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #180 on: January 10, 2012, 06:32:32 PM »
Please no mention of GAAP on this website.  I come here to get away from financial statement analysis.   :)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #181 on: January 10, 2012, 06:42:57 PM »
I have played Sand Hills once, and I am very grateful for that once, but don't have a need to ever play it again.  I would be, and have been, very happy to make the journey with the intention of only playing one of the three.

Thanks for this sentiment Barney.  I was beginning to forget the reason I like you.  It hasn't crossed my mind to solicit access to either Sand Hills or Ballyneal while at this year's 5th Major.  Personally, to desire a second bite of the Fruit of the Tree of Architectural Greatness undermines the tremendous privilege it is to be offered the first bite, which invariably satisfies me.  I can't even bring myself to accept a very gracious return invitation to Cypress Point Club.   

As for value, last year I spent approximatyely $500 and two days to drive and play 18 holes at a course I wanted to see at the invitation of a member whose fellowship I enjoy immensely.  It wasn't a question of "value."  I can't justify anything based on "value."  With me it's more of a "life's too damned short."

See you at Dismal.

Bogey

Bogey

Life is short, but long on choices.  We all make some decisions based on value whether it is admitted or not.  That in no way implies a $500 round can't be good value or that a $20 round is good value.  Value is precious, but necessarily includes compromises either in what we are getting or what we are paying.  We know when we have experienced good value and doubtless that experience brings a smile to one's face - who doesn't enjoy a good deal?  We also know when we have been had and that tends to leave a sour note lingering.   

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #182 on: January 10, 2012, 08:57:37 PM »
Chris J:

Quote
Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here.  That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country.

I think it is comments like this that lead some people to ponder -- as they have on this website from time to time -- whether "Marketing: GCA.com - $0" appears in the balance sheets of DRGC.

In any case, better than 99% is a hell of a call. The food and accommodations must be REALLY good!

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #183 on: January 10, 2012, 09:13:28 PM »

Might be time to give the tired schtick some pine.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #184 on: January 10, 2012, 09:56:57 PM »
Golly, Scott, I was responding to the contributors to the thread wrt food and beverage and why makes sense out here and is different from a typical club. Feel free not to read them but I don't want to rude to the good people whoi are interested.  It isn't marketing - I didn't pose the question.  To contribute, I have tried to be very transparent with, and share, the basic numbers so that thiose interested know the basics of how these things work in one of these monsters.  You call that marketing, I call it contributing.

If you ask anyone who has been here, the food really is that good.  30 day dry aged "Sterling Silver" steaks and a double cut pork chop as big as your fist have gained a lot of fans.  Pulled Pork shipped in from the Montgomery Inn in Cincinnati, or a Certified Angus Beef burger for lunch.  Very little of what we serve comes from a can, box, or bag.  Our Executive Chef has earned many awards and was (arguably of course) the best chef in Wyoming, including Jackson Hole.  He is also a great friend, a very good shortstop, and I've known and worked with him on and off for 17 years.  Old 201 ain't bad either.

If informing or clarifying the model is marketing to you, so be it.  I know alot of people who like the negative and love to find fault.  Don't count me among them.  I like the positive and love golf in most all forms.  I am a supporter of all courses and those who run, work at, and bust their butts to maintain them.  I'm one of them.  You will never see me take a swipe at anyone and contribute facts over opinion.

To clear up an error...marketing is an income statement item, it's not on the balance sheet.

Feels free to come on out and see the place for yourself.




John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #185 on: January 10, 2012, 10:02:44 PM »
CJ

For what it's worth. I look forward to enjoying one of your dry age steaks within the next 18 months. You can hand me the menu without the prices if you want
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #186 on: January 10, 2012, 10:07:25 PM »
John:

I may join you for one if you have space at the table for a tired old warhorse with dumb stories to share! 

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #187 on: January 10, 2012, 10:12:42 PM »
 8) Chris J.

If you ship in pulled pork from the Montgomery Inn in Cinti... could you also have some Skyline Chilli and Graeter's Ice Cream also brought in as a special order for a U.C. alum?

Steve
U.C. 1975 & 1977
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #188 on: January 10, 2012, 10:14:44 PM »
A well travelled friend said to me at dinner last summer, "THIS is NOT a grocery store steak!" ;D


Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #189 on: January 10, 2012, 10:23:47 PM »
8) Chris J.

If you ship in pulled pork from the Montgomery Inn in Cinti... could you also have some Skyline Chilli and Graeter's Ice Cream also brought in as a special order for a U.C. alum?

Steve
U.C. 1975 & 1977

Steve

I always have Black Raspberry Chocolate Chip in my "private" stash.  I love Skyline and thought about having it available for lunch.  Problem is, the stains on shirts.  Inverted 5 way, side of cheese and chili cheese sandwich was my go to order.   Montgomery Road and 275 was my primary spot back in the day.  Ruined a ton of ties too.  Precinct was a darned good steakhouse too!  Montgomery Inn is the best and we have Saratoga Chips on site most days.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #190 on: January 10, 2012, 10:51:01 PM »
 8) Chris,

Good man!   Customer satisfaction.. I'm interested.  Next time I visit area I'd like to rate your kitchen, oh and check out the golf too!

Skyline is an aquired taste, best after 1 AM.. better not put it on the menu.. shirts and all..   I was a Clifton-Ludlow guy. 

Cheers
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #191 on: January 10, 2012, 11:06:14 PM »
Oh hell, I wasn't going to say anything on here and chalk it up to another one of those threads that seem to be thrown out in something of a provocative manner to get a rise out of folks.  Sure JK has a very active mind and probably was contemplating buying the joint at BallyNeal and was wondering what the price point of value was, yada yada.  That is JK, and he can stir it up in the most uniquely confounding of ways.  Sorry to see the pile-on of Jay, but you are all big boys, including Jay, and he can handle himself just fine.  As a reader, I really got nothing out of the back and forth that ensued. 

I do want to say this, however, from my one time meet-up and short non-golf day with Chris touring DR, along with reading his contributions on GCA.com for the last year and a half or so.  IMHO, he is the real deal when it comes to just being a sincere golf goof, person who loves the game and the arena that is perfect for what he does out there at DR.   I venture to say there are not a handful of men in this country/world that could pull it off and be as dedicated to what he has invested of himself in personal effort, and personal $.  To me it is irrelevant how much the $ entails, because he has so much of himself and his soul invested there.  And, I can't think of another golf entrepreneur owner, developer, manager, or principle that has been more forthcoming of personal business details to advance the understanding of what it takes.  To that end, there are more people that read what he has to say that can be far more educated on these matters than taking wild guesses at things they otherwise wouldn't know.  There are (and I have met a few of the others who are dedicated to these sand hills and region golf enclaves) who have contributed to these discussions and been very welcoming of some of us real fanatics on GCA.com.  But, none moreso than Chris, with his positive cheerleading for ALL of the sand hill operations, and extraordinary sharing of otherwise private information. 

On JKs point, FWIW, value of rounds in my mind is a fleeting notion - after knowing folks that shouldn't even spend what they do on golf, because they can't afford it, to others that have no second thoughts to any known extreme cost of membership or rounds at end-of-the-world destinations because they are so wealthy.  It can't be quantified and placed in a tidy tight box.  Like someone said above, if you spend more than a few bucks and you have buyers regret, you should be more careful.  If you spend enough to make you uncomfortable, yet you loved it and it was part of special times in life, and you didn't take away from your family responsibilities, then good on you for enjoying your one and only trip through this life.  L'chiam!
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #192 on: January 10, 2012, 11:08:33 PM »
Trying to define value is not easy.
What is the value of a father and son attending the first NFL playoff game in team history.
The tickets are not cheap, parking, four hours of cooking, eating and enjoying refreshments prior as the crowd gets fired up...it all adds up if you get your pencil out.
Then total bedlam when this happens (since we're talking about cinci)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-MLd1iCY8c

Color it worth it. Back to work on Monday.

Jim Colton

Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #193 on: January 10, 2012, 11:28:20 PM »
Chris J:

Quote
Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here.  That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country.

I think it is comments like this that lead some people to ponder -- as they have on this website from time to time -- whether "Marketing: GCA.com - $0" appears in the balance sheets of DRGC.

In any case, better than 99% is a hell of a call. The food and accommodations must be REALLY good!

Scott,

He might not be that far off. If you assume that DR is 201 modern, call it the 500th best course in the country, 400th best private course. How many private clubs do we have in the US?  From all accounts, food and lodging is very good at DR, so it has to move it up the ranks. Of course, many clubs don't have accommodations and many have simple food options.


Wade Schueneman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #194 on: January 10, 2012, 11:52:46 PM »
Golly, Scott, I was responding to the contributors to the thread wrt food and beverage and why makes sense out here and is different from a typical club. Feel free not to read them but I don't want to rude to the good people whoi are interested.  It isn't marketing - I didn't pose the question.  To contribute, I have tried to be very transparent with, and share, the basic numbers so that thiose interested know the basics of how these things work in one of these monsters.  You call that marketing, I call it contributing.

If you ask anyone who has been here, the food really is that good.  30 day dry aged "Sterling Silver" steaks and a double cut pork chop as big as your fist have gained a lot of fans.  Pulled Pork shipped in from the Montgomery Inn in Cincinnati, or a Certified Angus Beef burger for lunch.  Very little of what we serve comes from a can, box, or bag.  Our Executive Chef has earned many awards and was (arguably of course) the best chef in Wyoming, including Jackson Hole.  He is also a great friend, a very good shortstop, and I've known and worked with him on and off for 17 years.  Old 201 ain't bad either.

If informing or clarifying the model is marketing to you, so be it.  I know alot of people who like the negative and love to find fault.  Don't count me among them.  I like the positive and love golf in most all forms.  I am a supporter of all courses and those who run, work at, and bust their butts to maintain them.  I'm one of them.  You will never see me take a swipe at anyone and contribute facts over opinion.

To clear up an error...marketing is an income statement item, it's not on the balance sheet.

Feels free to come on out and see the place for yourself.





Chris,

Thank you for adding to this discussion.  As someone who is increasingly interested in the economics of golf, I find your posts very helpful.  It sounds like there is a very special sense of place at Dismal beyond the golf, and I very much look forward to experiencing it this coming June!  Many thanks.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #195 on: January 11, 2012, 12:27:32 AM »
Scott

First, I'm not in trial here nor am I here for you to pick apart every word I say.  You have now become offensive and that, sir, is uncalled for.  My comments contribute, yours have not.  I happliy share information about a business model and why we do what we do.  You have gone out of your way to find flaws and faults and to assess motive where, simply, none exists.  Our low cost to join isn't me selling, it is stating a fact.  Our food being very good isn't selling, its simply the truth.  

You obviously haven't noticed but I am very much a Ballyneal supporter and am a supporter of all things golf.  I love the game and both the people who work in it and enjoy it.  What is really disingenuous is your making accusations towards a person you don't know.  I'm not selling memberships here, I contributing firsthand knowledge and experience and am happy to answer questions others may have, or to clarify the unclear.  For that, you take offense and accuse, and that is really is silly.

Scott, let me ask YOU a simple question...What have your last two posts contributed to the thread or the site?  If you want to one up me or match wits, I surrender.  

If you don't like my contributions here, I'm ok with that.  Each of the quotes you took time to post here describe our business and our model, within the world of golf, are were made in context to the topic or previous posts.  They show what works for us, at a point in an industry where what works matters very much.

You can put the guns down, my friend.  I come in peace and am not guilty of your now silly and rude accusations.  Its an old trick, if you can't argue the facts, attack the messenger.  Are YOU protecting or sensitive about something?  Sure seems like it for you spent a ton of time researching my contributions and posting them absent any context.  See how easy accusations are?  Silly, huh?

While you probably don't deserve a response for ungentlemanly behaviour, Jay explained he played Dismal River (dang, there I go selling again?) before the club even opened, many years ago, before I ever saw the place.  He may well have been charged a high amount and I never begin by doubting honest men. I took no exception, others did, I invited him to come back.  Probably just like Ballyneal, mistakes were made here.  Maybe we should open that up for a full vetting but I don't believe that would be the right thing.  Maybe it could help other good people from making them.  I'll wait for you to start that thread.



Dick, many thanks for the nice post.  I very much enjoyed spending time with you as well, and hope to see you again very soon.  I hope to hear more about Santa Claus and your recent January golf in Green Bay!  Sorry you had to read through the crap to see something nice.


Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #196 on: January 11, 2012, 02:02:15 AM »
Scott,

Wow, more silly accusations.  How nice.  Lets lance that boil, shall we?  I talk to a ton of people about joining Dismal River - do it all the time.  We have several Sand Hills members at Dismal, all were here before we acquired the club.  We have Prairie Club members and may well have a Ballynealer or two as well.    That is none of my business and, despite your questions, nor is it any of yours.  If a Dismal member asked me about Ballyneal, I would heartily encourage them to inquire.  You see, we don't say bad things about other clubs...it serves no purpose.

Here are the facts - I invited Jim Colton to join Dismal, but did so before I knew anything about Ballyneal or any rough waters. Unlike you, I don't live and breathe what goes on there but any conversations I may have are between that person and me, and certainly none of your affair.  Even if I did, so what?  Many people are members of multiple clubs out this way and it is quite common.  Rather, I did it because I admire Jim a great deal and though he would be a good member.  Still do.  I last saw Jim at Tom Doak's Renaissance Cup at Bandon and extended the invite soon after returning home.  Was he somehow off limits?  I believe he played with a good and mutual mutual friend, Ben Sims, who speaks very highly of Jim, as did Tom Doak.  Here's the clincher:  I also...wait for it...wait....wait...asked Jim, should he accept the invitation, to remain a member at Ballyneal if he joined Dismal River.  So much for poaching, huh? You may confirm that yourself with him if you wish, he probably still has the invitation.  Fact is, we are looking for good people, he is good people, and good people make great clubs. I won't wait for an apology for I expect the silly innuendo to continue for you seem to really be tied in knots in it.  As far as dark motives or great conspiracies, they don't exist. Thanks a bunch for trying to slander me and question my character yet again in a public forum with silly and completely baseless accusations.  Any other questions?

Other than Adam Clayman, who has become a very good friend, I don't believe I know any other members of Ballyneal aside from John Kirk, making it 3 of what, a total 75?  You may ask Adam yourself, he and I have never discussed who at Ballyneal we should approach.  That's not what friends do.  Thus, I can't recall offering any the opportunity to join Dismal River.  I don't have thier membership list nor do I want it.  You see Scott, we want people who want to be a member of Dismal River.  If they belong somewhere else, we don't much care, we don't have the weird obsession with such things that you seem to.  It is quite possible some have (horrors!) approached us, but I wouldn't expect them to disclose they are affiliated with Ballyneal or Bellybutton Hills.  You are right about one thing, Scott, we do offer good people invitations, and respond (kindly and professionally) to inquiries, most every day.  After all, that is the business we are in.  As Ely Callaway once said..."we sell fun", and are busy trying to build a great club.

Is the interrogation now over?  Might I suggest you visit Rans recent post about participation here and I hope he is reading your posts.  I have never crossed you but you have crossed the line this evening, and that is a shame.  Challenging a persons character serves no purpose, other than revealing your own faults for everyone here to see.  You've done a fine job at that tonight. 

I would ask a favor of you.  The next time you wish to make an accusation, please have facts, not innuendo, to back them up.  If you don't, you look silly and I hate seeing that.  Honestly, it makes me sick.

Pax

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #197 on: January 11, 2012, 02:11:10 AM »
Chris,

Quote
You obviously haven't noticed but I am very much a Ballyneal supporter and am a supporter of all things golf.

Did you or did you not approach Ballyneal members with invitations to join Dismal River at a special low price late last year, at the very time that Ballyneal was in rough water and was trying to sort out its future?

Harsh!  I am  not sure where you are going with this, but I am certain it can't end well.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #198 on: January 11, 2012, 02:31:29 AM »
Chris,

We obviously see things quite differently given you can't comprehend how quotes such as the seven I included in reply #194 could possibly constitute a sales pitch.

That's fine, it takes all types, but if you read those quotes -- and they are just a selection -- and don't see a sales pitch, well, we're obviously very different people. Like I said, I don't really care if people want to advertise for members here, but let's just call it what it is.

The Dismal River members seem to love the place and good on them for that. I've never suggested there's anything wrong with the course or club, despite your suggestions otherwise.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?
« Reply #199 on: January 11, 2012, 03:18:49 AM »
Chris:

I don't think you have done anything wrong by providing information about your business model, or expressing your personal opinion about the quality experience you offer. You obviously run a good operation there at DR, and you're proud of it. Good luck to you, I say!