[John Kavanaugh]

Above I offered proof of what Jay actually spent.  To quote the movie Contagion..Dr. Ian Sussman: Blogging isn't writing. It's graffiti with punctuation.  Let's all agree that bloggers are not journalists and not hold them to the same standards or ethics.
 
Fact: Jay paid $237.50 not $350.00. 

[Ben Sims]

Comparing the price structure of a high end destination club and the future of golf is no different than comparing the price of a Ferrari and the future of motoring. The pricing structure of golf in the sand hills or Ballyneal has absolutely nothing to do with making golf affordable for beginners or for people who can't afford the luxury of a destination club. I'd assume spa services in Vail are pricey too, but let's not compare it to escalating health care costs.

Here here!!

I care deeply about the future of golf and golf architecture.  The basis for many of my arguments on this website are based on a more efficient and less expensive reality for golf to be acceptable for the majority of golfers in this nation. I am dedicating a lot of time and effort into a year long thesis project of maintenance efficiencies and maybe even site preservation.  

Though I am firm in the convictions above, I want to be clear in my point.  Ballyneal, Sand Hills, and Dismal River are important to the future of golf architecture because of what lies on their property.  But their business models represent 0.001% of golf.  They exist on the merit of their owner and operators, not on the preferences of the median American golfer.  Arguing otherwise is pointless and hollow.  It serves only as a press release for the poster to say that these clubs are bad for the future of golf.

[jeffwarne]

They didn't SPONSOR me, I had to pay $350 total for the round and the caddie.

Jay,
Sponsor = access point.
If I sponsor you at Palmetto, you pay the green fee, but you are granted access via my introduction as a member.
If the Club or pro sponsors you, YOU pay the geen fee.

As opposed to a comp.


As far as value in golf, you are of course entitled to your opinion.
Just don't complain that destination courses are not affordable for the masses.
Neither are many other luxury items, nor are they intended to be.

Sounds like a hell of a value to me(especially at the current UG rate), but then I know what the costs are to run a club, spread over a limited # of members (in our case a finite,limited number)

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

Journalism should absolutely do all the things you argue.

But Jay's blogging is not journalism, or perhaps at the very best it is shoddy journalism.

Jay has a history of not letting facts get in the way of his story, and of reacting poorly and refusing to correct when his glaring errors are pointed out to him, so I am not at all surprised to learn that Jay paid more than $100 less than he claims for his round at Dismal River.

It has been pointed out in this thread that destination golf clubs run on thin margins and need both good management and a little good fortune to prosper. If there's one thing any business in that situation can do without it's Jay Flemma passing ham-fisted judgement based on bogus "facts" in a public forum.

[Sean_A]

Scott

As I stated earlier, I don't follow Jay, however, I don't follow guys who want to shut people up because they disagree/don't like/don't respect them.  Live and let live.  I know guys will say Jay's comments could have a negative economic impact on said club, but that is the nature of criticism.  Perhaps if journalists were more willing to stick their necks with their opinions the golf business wouldn't have hit the skids in the first place.  I can't see why guys get so worked about Jay - honestly - its bewildering to watch unfold time and again - not unlike the Merion crap.

Ciao       

[Andy Troeger]

This thread is interesting to me. There have been a lot of posters over the years on here griping about rising costs of golf and how its bad for the game. Many of these discussions have been about expensive public courses and private clubs with big clubhouses that cost significant $ to build. Now that the discussion is about courses that are architecturally significant to folks, the tune seems to be a bit different, even if the results perhaps are not.  The reasons for the costs are different, which can be argued is a legitimate difference.

Personally, I think its up to the builder/financer to determine what to build/where to build it/how to build it, and then its up to the market to determine the going rate and the financial success of the project. What's good for golf as a whole is rather irrelavant other than for discussion purposes. I have no problem with places charging what they need to be financially viable and being exclusively the domain of those wealthy/interested enough to make the trip. I happen to think that current market has been overbuilt, but that's another issue entirely.

[Tim Martin]

Scott

As I stated earlier, I don't follow Jay, however, I don't follow guys who want to shut people up because they disagree/don't like/don't respect them.  Live and let live.  I know guys will say Jay's comments could have a negative economic impact on said club, but that is the nature of criticism.  Perhaps if journalists were more willing to stick their necks with their opinions the golf business wouldn't have hit the skids in the first place.  I can't see why guys get so worked about Jay - honestly - its bewildering to watch unfold time and again - not unlike the Merion crap.

Ciao       

Sean- Journalists could have prevented the downturn in the golf business? Who knew?

[C. Squier]

Clint

You have your opinion and Jay has his.  Life is good.

Ciao

Sure is. But here is the problem. I can discuss what is good golf architecture with the poorest or wealthiest golfer in the world. But I can't discuss value with them. There is no way to ever quantify just how spending $350+ ( or whatever you spend) on a round of golf to another because it's not coming out of the same wallet.

Two people can walk off the same golf course and have equal feelings about it architecturally.....with one wondering how he'll ever pay the credit card bill and the other thinking it's just one more billable hour. That is why someone's opinion of value should have little to no bearing in the discussion here.

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

I know guys will say Jay's comments could have a negative economic impact on said club, but that is the nature of criticism.

And when that criticism is based on truth and fact, I have no qualms with it. Unfortunately, Jay routinely elects to abandon fact and truth in his writing -- in this case claiming to have paid 50% more than he actually did.

If I were a businessman reading someone lie publicly that they paid 150% the actual price for my good or service, I'd be filthy.

[Steve Lang]

  All I can add to this thread is that looking back to Sept09, after finding the place, a little bocce ball, dinner for two with that weekend's Colton Gang, drinks with JimUrbina thrown in, playing some guitar in the bar, barely sleeping (in the comfy bed Jim gave up for us) and a morning match play game with ms sheila over Ballyneal's chop hills in the fierce wind that day... priceless.  

didn't want to leave, but had to get to Boulder.

yes, I thought it pricey at checkout, but not unlike our stay at Banff or Bandon for that matter...

So, I have to ask one of my favorite questions ... "So what?"  

.. the steak was more expensive at BN than the fried chicken at the N. Platte Airport, both were filling.oth unique in theor own right

Live and let live?  

[Jim Colton]

I never had a problem with Jay issuing his opinion on how DR's high unaccompanied rate was bad for the game, but he shouldn't view folks challenging this opinion as a personal attack. I thought his opinion was ludicrous, and I and others have tried to challenge him to back it up. But we haven't gotten a clear answer yet.  I think it is worthwhile for digging into this issue if he's still up for going there without fear of being drawn and quartered.

[Jay Flemma]

John...plus 100 for the caddie.

[John Kavanaugh]

John...plus 100 for the caddie.

Bravo Sierra.

[Mac Plumart]

This thread has its good points and its bad points.  Focusing on the good...

It has opened my eyes as to why I love the Sand Hills of Nebraska so much...and less specifically, why I travel many miles to play specific golf courses.  And that reason is, they are off the charts amazing!!!

I invited some clients friends from Georgia to play golf with me in Nebraska a little over a year ago and they laughed at me and said, "Why would I travel to Nebraska to play golf?  We've got good golf right here in Georgia."  But I finally got them out to the Sand Hills a few months ago.  Their lives have been changed because of it.  They talk about it all the time and they can't wait to go back.  They've never seen anything like it...and I've never seen them have as much fun on a golf course.  

That is why people pay initiation fees and dues for a place they go to a handful of times per year.  Oh yeah, airline tickets, rental car fees, etc.  Frankly, I've never calculated the cost per round for my enjoyment of Dismal, or Rivermont, or St. Ives for that matter.  I don't care.  I love it there and I want to be a member and play golf there.  That is why I am a member.

Similar things can be said for why I'll travel back to Scotland and why I want to see some other courses in other parts of the country and the world.  To see again, and experience for the first time, unique, interesting, and well designed golf courses in different landscapes.  Good golf in The South is different from golf in the Sand Hills which is different from golf on the linksland of Scotland.  And, in my mind, golfers and golf course architectural enthusiasts need to see these types of places and experience how good golf can be in different locals.

To heck with the price per round.  Just like the sales person at Pinehurst told me, "True lovers of golf course architecture don't consider the prices of places they play."  

[Mark Johnson]

One of the big difference between Ballyneal any of the Neb courses is that there are many more options within a decent(though not short) drive.   Nonetheless, it creates some economies of scale for people looking to go on a golf vacation since the plane ticket could be amortized over more rounds.   

(this is also why i think we will see more Nebraska development in the not so long term future)

[John Kavanaugh]

I think it is fair to say that the living expenses of an average golfer with a home and children is very near to $100,000 per year.  That is $275 per day.  If you think paying what it costs for you to get out of bed in the morning for a round of golf in the Sand Hills is not egalitarian then you don't understand the meaning of the word.


I don't much care for what I said above but I remember being a kid and thinking $100,000/year was one hell of a nut.  When did it become only $275 per day.  Damn, and that is before taxes.  Is it a wonder why everyone is broke?

[Jim Colton]

One of the big difference between Ballyneal any of the Neb courses is that there are many more options within a decent(though not short) drive.   Nonetheless, it creates some economies of scale for people looking to go on a golf vacation since the plane ticket could be amortized over more rounds.   

(this is also why i think we will see more Nebraska development in the not so long term future)

Really? Ballyneal is essentially on the way to the SH courses from Denver and many folks play it or look to play it on the way out. If I were to add a Nebraska jaunt to my next Ballyneal visit, it would require the same amount of windshield time as going straight to Nebraska and playing there.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

I took it that Mark was saying that one of the great things about Ballyneal is that there is so much great golf is in the area.  Not that it is what you want but I can promise you that if Ballyneal would get carts it would be full, full, full with guys flying into Denver and traveling out to the courses of the Sand Hills.  My little group would be good for $5000 of revenue per year.  If we had access that is.

It's just is too difficult to drive 3 hours to an airport, fly 2 hours, drive 2 more hours and then walk 18 holes.  Hell, I could be at Ballyneal in time for 36 holes on travel day if they had carts.

[Jim Colton]

John,

I think Mark was isolating Ballyneal from the others because the others are relatively close to each other. Seems he just forgot an "and" in his first sentence.

Maybe if Rupert's plan of a second course allowing carts comes to fruition, you and Mark will get your wishes.

[Sean_A]

Scott

I don't know (and don't really care) the definitive cost of Jay's round so I won't question his integrity, much less so in public.  Much of what folks get on Jay's case for is a matter of opinion rather than fact.  I won't go into past bruhahs because I don't necessarily agree with Jay, but I do think most of the flack is simply a difference of opinion gone a overboard.  

Clint

Of course I disagree with you.  We already know what the best courses in the world are as there are plenty of rankings to tell us this - including an unofficial GCA.com ranking when looked at closely isn't really all that much different from others if one accepts the top 100 is really about the top 250 when differences of opinion are considered.  The architecture of many of the best courses have been discussed widely and thoroughly.  I can't see as how writing to value is a no-no subject, especially if the article (and I don't know that it did) already discussed the architecture/ambience/beauty etc.  

Ciao  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

By the way how much should a round at Ballyneal cost...and Jim any news on the situation of the club at present that is publishable on here?

[John Kavanaugh]

By the way how much should a round at Ballyneal cost...and Jim any news on the situation of the club at present that is publishable on here?

Here is a link to what The Prairie Club charges:

http://www.theprairieclub.com/4a318fb9cf_sites/www.theprairieclub.com/files/TCP_Fee_Schedule_2011withCabins.pdf

[Chris Johnston]

Looks like Prairie is a bit more expensive than us, but they do encourage outside play.  The extra $50 for all day is in addition to already higher rates.  I think they also offer "special" packages for multi-night outside play.

I think the comparison is to other destinations, be it public or private.  Lots of places including Pebble and Bandon charge in the same arena, if not more.

[Lou_Duran]

Chris- how is the pheasant hunting around DR?  Sorry if this has been asked and answered, but when will the Doak course open?

Adam- how is the pheasant hunting at Ballyneal?  I heard from someone not on this site that the second course there is still in the planning stages.  Is this true in light of the pending ownership change?

Re: the CPR, I am assuming that the question is asked with the hopes of obtaining honest, personal responses.  As such, getting hit on the side of the head with a 2 X 4 for declaring one's limit is not likely to meet the objective.  I have been whacked a few times, more than a couple deservedly perhaps, so, sticks and stones .......

My personal limit for a round of golf outside my backyard is between $100-$200, depending on the architecture.  There are only a couple courses I would consider paying more to play, and these are not in Nebraska or Colorado.  I am also less likely to do so more than occasionally at any one course.  Being cost concious can be a terrible buzz killer, but it does help when it comes to putting food on the table during difficult times, and retaining the traditional value (and self-respect) of not expecting others to pay for things that we want or need.

[Ben Sims]

Still waiting for someone to explain how the guest fee at a private destination club has any bearing on what the cost per round should be for a member at Ballyneal.

Still waiting to hear how the cost per round (whether the guest fee or the calculated per round fee for membership) at a private destination club can be bad for the future of golf.

Unless you are speaking in terms associated with membership to a private club, your personal feelings of what you'll pay to play as a guest have very little do with the actual question posed.  This is a finance question posed by John to spark debate about the lengths people wiould be willing to go to be a part of something like BN.

I am surprised by the gall some have displayed on this thread to impose their idea of value onto a PRIVATE LUXURY ITEM!  There is no mutual exclusivity here.  I can appreciate a well prepared meal at a local establishment while also going nuts for my one trip to the French Laundry. 

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