Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?

[jeffwarne]

It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River.  Nice to have more than one data point.


Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm.  The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.

I would guess the cost per round at Dismal to be around $500.

Isn't $500 just too much?  Is a round at Dismal really worth that?  I thought it was overpriced when I played it.  It was a $350 day for me.  That's not egalitarian...

When you start putting a dollar figure on it, you've missed the point.
 

It may've been a $350 day for you, but I'd bet most members of high end destination clubs would settle for their rounds to average out to $350 per round they play.

I'm reminded of when one of our members asked our unaccomapanied fee because his buddies  wanted him to sponsor a group.
When I told him he balked.
"That's too much to ask my buddies to pay"

I then asked him how many rounds he played last year.
He said about 30
I explained that his buddies were playing for about 30 % of what his per round average cost was (not including him usually picking up guest and caddie fees)
"When you put it like that, those assholes are getting a bargain" was his reply


If you really want to put a dollar figure on it, add in the airfare, lodging, meals etc. etc.
For that matter a round overseas in the UK could run $200-$1000 per round, depending on #of rounds played,airfare, Hotel ,ground transport, caddie etc.

I'm amazed when Americans complain that Uk fees are too high for certain PRIVATE clubs.
No one is putting a gun to your head and there are PLENTY of better value options, but remember no matter where you play overseas, you're already in it for a certain $$$ figure due to the price of getting and staying there.

there are always cheaper options on both sides of the pond, fortunately for those who enjoy destination clubs, there are members who support them.

I don't think Dismal was conceived to "promote golf to the masses" or "egalitarion" (whatever that means)

 

[Jim Colton]

Now Tom, that's a backwards argument.  Just because something is expensive to everyone doesn't mean we have to accept it.  If we took that argument to a further extent, there's be a lot less people playing golf than now because it's to expensive.

As for that trip, it was a week of golf in CO/Neb w/ friends to costs were somewhat amortized, but the next most expensive round that trip was something like $65...and Dismal isn't 5x better than most other other courses I've played anywhere, let alone on that trip.  Is it a good place, of course, but that price point is too high to be egalitarian and promote the game to the masses.

Who said a private club in the middle of nowhere Nebraska has to promote the game to the masses? Shouldn't it just have to provide a valued experience to its members and their guests? As long as there are enough guys willing to support it and make it viable, that should be enough.

The thing about Ballyneal is it doesn't have to be all things to all people. As long as there are 150 or so guys who "get it", it'll be just fine.

[Jud_T]

Is it a good place, of course, but that price point is too high to be egalitarian and promote the game to the masses.


The price point was too high only in the sense that the market would no longer support it.  There's a place for decent fun courses that are a great value and open to anyone with a wifebeater, a pair of ripped jeans, a garbage bag full of malt liquor and $20 bucks in rolled up quarters.  Fortunately there's also a place for places like Ballyneal. (Wait for it....)

[Doug Sobieski]

When you factor in dues, travel, F & B, caddies, and lodging, $675-$700 per round played had been historically pretty accurate for me in the past at Ballyneal (I'm guessing 15 rounds per year on average). I still think it's the greatest place on earth (next to Disney World). Like Colton said, worth every penny. Some people would certainly have a lower average cost, and some would certainly be much higher.

[Tim Martin]

It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River.  Nice to have more than one data point.


Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm.  The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.

I would guess the cost per round at Dismal to be around $500.

Isn't $500 just too much?  Is a round at Dismal really worth that?  I thought it was overpriced when I played it.  It was a $350 day for me.  That's not egalitarian...

When you start putting a dollar figure on it, you've missed the point.
 

It may've been a $350 day for you, but I'd bet most members of high end destination clubs would settle for their rounds to average out to $350 per round they play.

I'm reminded of when one of our members asked our unaccomapanied fee because his buddies  wanted him to sponsor a group.
When I told him he balked.
"That's too much to ask my buddies to pay"

I then asked him how many rounds he played last year.
He said about 30
I explained that his buddies were playing for about 30 % of what his per round average cost was (not including him usually picking up guest and caddie fees)
"When you put it like that, those assholes are getting a bargain" was his reply


If you really want to put a dollar figure on it, add in the airfare, lodging, meals etc. etc.
For that matter a round overseas in the UK could run $200-$1000 per round, depending on #of rounds played,airfare, Hotel ,ground transport, caddie etc.

I'm amazed when Americans complain that Uk fees are too high for certain PRIVATE clubs.
No one is putting a gun to your head and there are PLENTY of better value options, but remember no matter where you play overseas, you're already in it for a certain $$$ figure due to the price of getting and staying there.

there are always cheaper options on both sides of the pond, fortunately for those who enjoy destination clubs, there are members who support them.

I

Jeff really encapsulates a great post in his last sentence. I really don`t see how you attempt to attach a dollar amount to the experience provided by a destination club like Dismal or Ballyneal. There are some things in life that you just can`t or should not put a price on.

[Jay Flemma]

Jeff, Tim I do not agree.  Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game.  To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.

[Jud_T]

Jeff, Tim I do not agree.  Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game.  To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.

Jay,

So out of principal you've never played at an exclusive private club then?  What guest fee did you pay?  And how do you think that related to the average fee/round your host was paying?

[Jim Colton]

Jeff, Tim I do not agree.  Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game.  To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.

Who said this a zero-sum game? I can and will support both groups.

[Jay Flemma]

Jeff, Tim I do not agree.  Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game.  To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.

Jay,

So out of principal you've never played at an exclusive private club then?  What guest fee did you pay?  And how do you think that related to the average fee/round your host was paying?

Jud, don't miss my point.  I think that $350/round is too much for anywhere, public or private.  Others may or may not agree.  But so what?  It's probably an issue with a different answer to every individual.

How much do YOU think is too much?

[Jud_T]

I agree that $350 will price quite a few people out of the equation.  I'd venture that that's what most guys are paying on average at the nicer private clubs in your neck of the woods, however, if not more.  It simply comes down to what's important to you and your disposable income.  Personally, I put together a spreadsheet of clubs.  I included my ratings and those of all the mags, GCA, Doak, etc... I also included the likely number of rounds and my average cost/round including amortized downstroke.  Then I put together a weighted formula to value quality vs. price, distance, and a few other variables.  Ballyneal's pretty high on the list (and with a bullet apparently), but that's because I weigh quality at least as highly as quantity.  

[Jim Colton]

Jeff, Tim I do not agree.  Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game.  To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.

Jay,

So out of principal you've never played at an exclusive private club then?  What guest fee did you pay?  And how do you think that related to the average fee/round your host was paying?

Jud, don't miss my point.  I think that $350/round is too much for anywhere, public or private.  Others may or may not agree.  But so what?  It's probably an issue with a different answer to every individual.

How much do YOU think is too much?

So, which is it? Merely your individual price point or the picture of golf armageddon you painted in your previous post? I'm confused.

[Eric Smith]

Jay,

What did the $350 include? Lodging? I can't speak to what the fees were back when you were there, but I'm pretty sure the unaccompanied guest fees at Dismal these days are $165 during the week, $195 w/e.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, Tim I do not agree.  Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game.  To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.

Jay,

So out of principal you've never played at an exclusive private club then?  What guest fee did you pay?  And how do you think that related to the average fee/round your host was paying?

Jud, don't miss my point.  I think that $350/round is too much for anywhere, public or private.  Others may or may not agree.  But so what?  It's probably an issue with a different answer to every individual.

How much do YOU think is too much?

So should no hotel cost $350, no first class airfare, no large diamonds, no Broadway Show, no Super Bowl?

If no round can cost $350, how would Friar's head, Sebonack, the Bridge, east hampton ever be built where FARMLAND is $200,000/acre?
Should they not be built because it exceeds your $350 #?

The family'down the street" can play the  muni/public  "down the street"
I don't understand what that has to do with Dismal or Ballyneal.
I just got my invoice for Sag Harbor GC (as muni as it gets).
there's room for both kinds of places, and I'm sure Ballyneal and Dismal do their own philanthropy without including a plan for affordable golf for the masses, which would be highly impractical as there are no masses there.
Should they not have been built either?

If I set up my buddies at Palmetto(or worse yet they arranged it through the pro) and they reported back on a public forum that it was not worth it, they certainly would be off my list for Augusta (or Sand Hills ) invites.

If all these courses built in remote or expensive areas exceed your idea of what golf should cost and they don't get built, please don't send them all to Sag Harbor GC

[John Shimp]

Jud
It would be interesting to see your course analysis.  A lot more interesting than reading about someones views on what too much per a roynd of golf is and how irresponsible high priced clubs are

[Dan Byrnes]

As discussed per round cost is not a good measure for a destination course.  My thoughts are clubs like this are about one to several trips annually.  Maybe with a friends for a member guest, a several day long trip with a bunch of friends, like 2-3 foursomes.  Perhaps a solo vist. For a member event, a trip where members coordinate to be there.

What does the club do to encourage a membership experience for someone like me who doesn't personally know any members or GCA folks but is intrigued with being the idea of such a membership.  

While I can join and coordinate a trip with a bunch of my friends.  To get me there more often (spending money) their needs to be a way to get me meeting the membership.  Member guest tournaments are great for this.

In the end to me a place like this needs to pay the bills on dues, if lodging, F&B can turn a profit all the better.

So I think a better question as opposed to cost per round how many members do they need to operationally break even?  Seems to me your looking at 200 at 10k annually to make it work, or some iteration of that.

While their are certainly 200 people with the means, some of the potential population already has membership at other similar economic cost destination clubs that are already financially stable?

It's a tough thing because while it's desirable it's expensive and because it's a passion business model the risk of financial trouble is higher which causes caution regarding significant initiation fees.

I haven't played either Sand Hills, Dismal nor Ballyneal nor too familiar with thier respective differences but would people rather be a member at SandHills if it was offered to them or one of other clubs?  Just seems they have already reached financial stability?

Dan

[Dan Byrnes]

I am not trying to be rude as I know Ballyneal is a touchy subject but is the problem that the building costs were not able to be amortized or is it even the operational costs weren't supported by the membership level?  Or both?

I know much of this discussion is what is fair or acceptable prices, private clubs rarely meet any level of such value, destination clubs even less so.  It about a quality place to go to get away and enjoy a phenomenal golf experience, hopefully meet new friends and enjoy our passion in a different form.

I mostly am interested as I hope to see the place thrive once it's reorganized as well as learn more about the business of operating a club.

If its purely a can't handle the debt problem that very different than whether they have or can attract a membership in order to cover operational costs.

Dan

[Bill Gayne]

If I set up my buddies at Palmetto(or worse yet they arranged it through the pro) and they reported back on a public forum that it was not worth it, they certainly would be off my list for Augusta (or Sand Hills ) invites.

If all these courses built in remote or expensive areas exceed your idea of what golf should cost and they don't get built, please don't send them all to Sag Harbor GC

Go ahead and add my name when they fall off the list .

[Tim Martin]

Jeff, Tim I do not agree.  Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game.  To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.

Jay- One thing I know is that regardless of your version of how the game should be and what is too much to pay for a round of golf it has absolutely nothing to do with the intrinsic value that one places on the experience at Dismal or Ballyneal. Are there a lot of family`s down the street from Dismal that have been excluded? Come on man.

[Brad Isaacs]

IF you have to look at the cost, then it costs too much for you.  It is only a love of the golf out there that is relavant.

[Chris Johnston]

All:

This is a very good thread.  Looks like the questions are centered around value, and each of us sees that differently.

Places Ballyneal and Dismal River don't "cost" $350 or $500.  We charge less than $175 for the day - and you can play as much as you wish.  To us, that is value.  The other costs are for lodging, food, purchases and fun.  Like Bandon (which ain't cheap) you go there to play golf, thats most all that you do.  Our lowest cost guest lodging unit is less than $110 per person.  If you want to eat cheap, you can.  If you want the pork chop or a dry aged steak, those cost more - just like home.  We go out of our way to deliver on the experience - that is the value we provide.  We begin the year with a "nut" approaching $2 million and that is without much debt.  It ain't no $500k.

Many of these destination clubs are a darned good bargain - we sure don't charge much at all to join those who do also have dues that are reasonable - that is our model.  They are trying to meet a market need.  For me, there is nothing better than returning "home", alone or with friends, for a few days of doing what you like.  There is nothing better for me than a buddy trip, playing someplace special.  If that isn't what you enjoy, that's ok.

There is a difference between affordability and accessibility.  There is a huge difference between dancing in the sprinkler in the backyard and going to Disney World.  

The guys (and gals) who love Ballyneal, Dismal River, and Bandon Dunes have a sense of "place" and that is imprtant to them.  So do the folks who commit to clubs everywhere.  That is a good thing.  Having to pay $400 for a driver that costs $45 to make irks me, but I buy them.  I pay $2.50 for a golf ball that costs a dime. I have an iPhone and really can't justify the cost.  Same with my car, my home, and even my wife - I can't cost justify any of them.  

No matter the place, each must have usage, or yield.  If they were cheap, they wouldn't exist.  I assume that is true for Disney, Apple, or a destination Ski resort.  

Ballyneal is a great place - one of the very best.  Its just hard to pay the bills if it has to be affordable.  Tom D is right, we don't sniff 10,000 rounds and we have 2x the lodging space which is great when busy.  I have a feeling Ballyneal will be fine if the debt gets resolved - they have people who love the place and that is the key. When they do, go out for a visit - it will be well worth the cost and effort if you like special places.  If you really like, take the plunge, and join.  LIke Jim, I bet you won't regret it.

[Ben Sims]

As for that trip, it was a week of golf in CO/Neb w/ friends so costs were somewhat amortized, but excepting one course out of the 9 we played, the next most expensive round that trip was something like $65-$75...and Dismal isn't 5x better than most other other courses I've played anywhere, let alone on that trip.  Is it a good place, of course, but that price point is too high to be egalitarian and promote the game to the masses.

So let me break this down.  You're a GUEST of a club and you're using their GUEST fee to argue against the pricing structure of a given club?  It's a private club.  Their pricing structure for guests likely doesn't equate to a cost per round analysis for MEMBERSHIP costs.  By the way, your guest fee at Ballyneal was certainly not $65-75, unless I'm missing something.

I hope Jim Colton would quickly dismiss me as a friend if I came on this website and publicly complained about my cost per round at Ballyneal during the events he allows me to be a part of.  I hope whoever sponsored you at Dismal River does the same.

[Kirk Gill]

The price point was too high only in the sense that the market would no longer support it.  There's a place for decent fun courses that are a great value and open to anyone with a wifebeater, a pair of ripped jeans, a garbage bag full of malt liquor and $20 bucks in rolled up quarters.  Fortunately there's also a place for places like Ballyneal. (Wait for it....)

On one hand, I resent the notion that this is the dichotomy that exists in golf, that there are those who can afford private club golf, and there are a bunch of guys in wifebeaters, jeans, etc.

On the other, though, it's clear that there are plenty of golf options available, and a course like Ballyneal shouldn't have to have some sort of egalitarian ideal in mind when they set their prices. They want to prosper, they want to attract a quality membership, and as a business they have to make the price-point decisions that they feel are best for their club.

Maybe I can't afford to join a private golf club (while at the same time not wearing a wifebeater, drinking malt liquor, etc). But I can't afford an Audi R8, either. Life does continue. But I'll say this - I've had a few opportunities to play some private club courses and for the life of me I can't remember how much I payed at any of them. It's the experience I remember.

[Jim Colton]

Well according to Twitter, it looks like Jay is planning a return trip to the region in 2012. I'm looking forward to his fresh take.


@JayGolfUSA
Jay Flemma
1st two stops of the JayGolfUSA tour this coming year - Chambers Bay/Gold Mtn and then Southern Utah with @TheGolfSpace Tony K!
18 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/JayGolfUSA/status/148595731098378241

@TheGolfSpace
Tony Korologos
@JayGolfUSA Need to do Chambers Bay!
19 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/TheGolfSpace/status/148777694048423937

@JayGolfUSA
Jay Flemma
@TheGolfSpace Let's do Utah first - then Colorado/Nebraska!
19 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/JayGolfUSA/status/148791420474503169

@JayGolfUSA
Jay Flemma
@TheGolfSpace @ballyneal Well how about Sand Hills?
19 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/JayGolfUSA/status/148851218972811264

@TheGolfSpace
Tony Korologos
@JayGolfUSA Wouldn't suck to stop by @ballyneal again.
19 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/TheGolfSpace/status/148800545866530816

[Jay Flemma]

As for that trip, it was a week of golf in CO/Neb w/ friends so costs were somewhat amortized, but excepting one course out of the 9 we played, the next most expensive round that trip was something like $65-$75...and Dismal isn't 5x better than most other other courses I've played anywhere, let alone on that trip.  Is it a good place, of course, but that price point is too high to be egalitarian and promote the game to the masses.

So let me break this down.  You're a GUEST of a club and you're using their GUEST fee to argue against the pricing structure of a given club?  It's a private club.  Their pricing structure for guests likely doesn't equate to a cost per round analysis for MEMBERSHIP costs.  By the way, your guest fee at Ballyneal was certainly not $65-75, unless I'm missing something.

I hope Jim Colton would quickly dismiss me as a friend if I came on this website and publicly complained about my cost per round at Ballyneal during the events he allows me to be a part of.  I hope whoever sponsored you at Dismal River does the same.

You did not break it down correctly.  I was sent out there for work by one of my employers, and it was my job to express my honest opinion, which I did.  Do you ban Tom Doak b/c of something he said in the Confidential Guide?  Or Ron Whitten if he says a course wasn't all that great?  Plus, I said Dismal was a good effort.  Go read the article.

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/the_best_new_private_course_battles_a_study_in_golf_dichotomy

As usual, gossip spreads it's own evil...

[Ben Sims]

I was sent out there for work by one of my employers.

Jay,

So it wasn't a member that sponsored you, it was the CLUB.  And you still imply--on a public forum--that their fee structure is bad for golf?  For the good of your employer, I hope your future access to review golf courses isn't affected by your views on private club fee structuring and its impact on the good of the game.   Maybe you should just stick with opining about the courses themselves.