Can we lower the cost of playing golf?

[Jud_T]

Pat,

If Pascack Brook in Westvale, NJ spends more than $800k I'll eat a plate of their turf with a fine chianti.

[Kevin Stark]

Pat --

Here in Indiana, I know of only two private clubs that are north of $1M per year. One of them you can probably guess and the other you might not. I have my suspicions about two others but that's it. A mom-and-pop public course will be well under $500K per year. Pretty much everything costs less here, but the major variables will be the cost of labor, the cost of the land, the property taxes on the land, and the cost of water.

[jeffwarne]

OK, name some courses in the NY Met area with green budgets under $ 825,000.

I don't have the facts on it, but I would be surprised if the city of Stamford, CT spends more than $800,000 per year on Sterling Farms, the municipal course I grew up playing.  If they do, they've lost their minds, and Geoff Cornish is rolling over in his grave.

Also, what about the courses like Calverton Links and Sag Harbor, out on the east end of Long Island?  Surely they don't spend that much?

Tom,
You're spot on, but I wasn't going to provide the long list until I had a few confirmations. (Didn't want a slew of green ink)
Sag Harbor-I'd be surprised if it's $150,000
Goat Hill ditto
and the list will get exponentially longer after I get a few return phone calls from 18 holers I frequent (they're all busy cause we're still playing up here at ALL of the  publics)
There is life outside NGLA, Trump Bedminster, Boca Rio,and Pine Tree

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Long Island/NYC- Low Budget
Douglaston
Clearview
Kissena
Holbrook
Eisenhower Blue or White
Breezy Point
Shelter Island CC (Goat Hill)
Sag Harbor
Dyker Beach
Cantiague
Bay Park
Christopher Morely
Peninsula
Merrick Road
Crab Meadow
Swan Lake
Great Rock
Poxabogue
Dix Hills
Timber Point- is probably pretty low--although 27 holes
Calverton
Split Rock
Marine Park
Forest Park
Latourette

[Patrick_Mucci]

. [/size]150]

OK, name some courses in the NY Met area with green budgets under $ 825,000.

I don't have the facts on it, but I would be surprised if the city of Stamford, CT spends more than $800,000 per year on Sterling Farms, the municipal course I grew up playing.  If they do, they've lost their minds, and Geoff Cornish is rolling over in his grave.


I was referencing private clubs.
Municipal accounting, in terms of applicable line items may be very different.
Especially when it comes to benefit costs.


Also, what about the courses like Calverton Links and Sag Harbor, out on the east end of Long Island?  Surely they don't spend that much?

Tom,

Those aren't Metropolitan NY courses, they're much further removed
A 20-25 mile radius might be generous

[Patrick_Mucci]

MSS,

courses well beyond the metropolitan NY area and courses owned by municipalities/counties/states should be eliminated.

So refine your list and we'll discuss.

A 20 mile radius from NYC would be generous

Long Island/NYC- Low Budget
Douglaston
Clearview
Kissena
Holbrook
Eisenhower Blue or White
Breezy Point
Shelter Island CC (Goat Hill)
Sag Harbor
Dyker Beach
Cantiague
Bay Park
Christopher Morely
Peninsula
Merrick Road
Crab Meadow
Swan Lake
Great Rock
Poxabogue
Dix Hills
Timber Point- is probably pretty low--although 27 holes
Calverton
Split Rock
Marine Park
Forest Park
Latourette

[Tim_Weiman]

M Shea Sweeney:

I grew up in New York, but always felt a place like Cleveland is much better for golf. New York, including Long Island, has the quality, of course. However, Northeast Ohio has long had a far greater quantity of affordable golf courses.

I doubt the game grows by building another Winged Foot. Rather, it will many that can be played for $25-40, perhaps like some you have listed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick if clubs don't control costs to a sensible level isn't that why NY Met area golf is so expensive?

Golf is expensive in the Metropolitan NY area.

In some part due to expectation on the part of the golfer, their demand for a superior product.

But other costs not associated with the golfer's desires drive up costs.
Taxes on land in the Met NY area are very high as are labor costs..
The changing demographic requires that clubs open earlier.
Thus overtime costs are generally higher.
$ 100,000 in overtime is not unheard of.

The real problem often ISN'T the golf course, but what comes with it.

Even if your green budget was $ 2,000,000, with 200 or 300 members dues would be between $ 7,000 and $ 10,000 per year.
At $ 1,500,000 between $ 5,000 and $ 7,000 per year and at $ 1,000,000 between
$ 3,000,000 and $ 5,000 per year.

But dues/fees/charges probably come closer to $ 20,000 per year at many Met NY and SE Florida courses at those member counts.

"A", if not "THE" problem I see is that since the end of WWII, clubs expanded their physical plant and services, driving up costs dramatically.

I've been to clubs where the menu is not to be believed.  It's literally pages, voluminous.
I don't know of one club that doesn't lose money on their food services.
I don't know of any that make money on their pool and tennis operation.

But, because the green budget tends to be the largest it gets scrutinized the most.

Another of my objections is that all the landscaping for the clubhouse, pool and tennis areas is charged to the green budget, when it should be back charged to those respective departments.

In my years of working with superintendents on their budgets, they're usually in the middle of a tug of war between the finance committee and member expectations, with Mother Nature and TV often being an unkind intruders.

The membership wants a superior to perfect product, mostly as seen on TV and the finance committee wants:
1.  a reduction
2.  No increase
3.  A slight increase

If a club had a crew of 16, annual increases in health insurance costs of 12 % alone are going to eliminate #'s 1 and 2, unless other "golf course" areas are reduced or eliminated, and that's not what the membership wants or expects.

Just look at Matt Day's post on annual increases and you'll start to get a feel for the problem.

The problem as I see it is that the golf, by itself, is affordable.
It's the other collateral or related items that drive the costs up to their present levels.
But, memberships don't want to alter their culture.

When you have a clubhouse you have an obligation to pay your staff a decent wage, provide health and welfare benefits and retirement funding.

That costs a lot of money.

In addition, no member, ascending to the committee or board level, wants to fire employees, especially long term employees who have served them well.

I suspect most of the experts who think it's easy to reduce costs have never sat in on finance committee meetings and/or Board meetings dedicated to creating and controlling budgets.

I'm of the opinion that it's not a line item issue, but a cultural issue.

And within each club there are different factions.
Those that want to control and reduce costs and those who want more goods and services and don't care what it costs.

What I'd be curious about is the difference in budgets between a member owned club and a club owned by a single member in the same area.

[Jud_T]

Pat,

Why just limit it to private courses within 25 miles of Manhattan?  Why not limit it to courses with an initiation of $150,000 or more?  What about courses that have more than 1 First Growth Bordeaux on the wine list at all times?  Or courses that offer cool, lemon scented towels at the turn?  What about courses with less than 150 members and greens stimping at 11 or higher? What about Private Courses within an hour of Tokyo?

[M. Shea Sweeney]

MSS,

courses well beyond the metropolitan NY area and courses owned by municipalities/counties/states should be eliminated.

So refine your list and we'll discuss.

A 20 mile radius from NYC would be generous

Long Island/NYC- Low Budget
Douglaston
Clearview
Kissena
Holbrook
Eisenhower Blue or White
Breezy Point
Shelter Island CC (Goat Hill)
Sag Harbor
Dyker Beach
Cantiague
Bay Park
Christopher Morely
Peninsula
Merrick Road
Crab Meadow
Swan Lake
Great Rock
Poxabogue
Dix Hills
Timber Point- is probably pretty low--although 27 holes
Calverton
Split Rock
Marine Park
Forest Park
Latourette

Understood, I think we would be hard pressed to find a private course 25 miles from NYC that has a budget under $900k.

Limiting the Metropolitan NY area to a 25 mile radius is ridiculous. Garden City is approx 24-26 Miles from lower Manhattan.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Why just limit it to private courses within 25 miles of Manhattan?  

Because I can speak with a measure of authority on some of them and not just spout off, like others, without an iota of supporting facts.


Why not limit it to courses with an initiation of $150,000 or more?  

Not enough of them left to form a sufficient sampling

What about courses that have more than 1 First Growth Bordeaux on the wine list at all times?  
Or courses that offer cool, lemon scented towels at the turn?  
What about courses with less than 150 members and greens stimping at 11 or higher?

I'll be happy to discuss them after you identify them.

You may prefer to discuss hypothetical situations, but, I'd rather stick to real world situations.

What about Private Courses within an hour of Tokyo?

Because you wouldn't know anything about them either.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MSS,

I think you'll find that GCGC is only a few miles from the New York City border

You might not be aware of this but Manhattan is only one of the five Burroughs that comprise New York City.

Surely you've heard of the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn and Staten Island.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Mr. Mucci-

It's always good to be on the same page. It would be interesting if a private club with such a low budget within 25 miles of the NYC border exists.

Interesting to see what the course budget for the private club Hay Harbor on Fishers Island is.  

[David_Elvins]

Listening to Pat Mucci talk about affordable golf is like listening to Justin Bieber talk about politics.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Listening to Pat Mucci talk about affordable golf is like listening to Justin Bieber talk about politics.

David, I'm more than reasonably confident that I know far more than you concerning the cost of golf at private clubs in the greater NY Metro area and SE Florida.  And, I'm fairly certain that the above statement applies to issues other than the cost of golf.

[David_Elvins]

David, I'm more than reasonably confident that I know far more than you concerning the cost of golf at private clubs in the greater NY Metro area and SE Florida.  And, I'm fairly certain that the above statement applies to issues other than the cost of golf.

Pat,

I would agree that you know more than me about the cost of golf in private clubs in New York and SE Florida.  But I would be very confident that these locations are in no way representative, significant, or relevant to the other 99.99% of golf courses in the world - the affordable ones.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

David, I'm more than reasonably confident that I know far more than you concerning the cost of golf at private clubs in the greater NY Metro area and SE Florida.  And, I'm fairly certain that the above statement applies to issues other than the cost of golf.

Pat,

I would agree that you know more than me about the cost of golf in private clubs in New York and SE Florida.  But I would be very confident that these locations are in no way representative, significant, or relevant to the other 99.99% of golf courses in the world - the affordable ones.  

Population wise, they represent a very significant portion of the golfing world.

As to coures in the middle of Asia, Africa or remote regions, I claim no knowledge of their financial operations.

But, when it comes to the cost of golf in the NY Met area and SE Florida, I have a speck of experience and knowledge, and since this thread didn't confine the discussion to areas other than those mentioned above, my contributions have a significant value where they are concerned.

[jeffwarne]

Why on earth if we're discussing affordable golf, would we limit the discussion to private courses?
First call back on 18 privately owned 18 hole pubic?
LESS than $300000,.so yes, there are metro ny courses under 825 k
and Pat you said NO COURSE would be under 825
Plenty of publics are, or they're NLE

[David_Elvins]

Population wise, they represent a very significant portion of the golfing world.

Quick maths would indicate that population wise, they would make up less than 2% of the golfing world.  I don't see much point going back and forth as to whether this is a very significant proportion.

As to courses in the middle of Asia, Africa or remote regions, I claim no knowledge of their financial operations.

How about Morris County, NJ?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

An article in today's Wall Street Journal, centered around courses in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area, indicated that the cost of water has risen by 40 % in the last five (5) years.

The article also stated that 65 % to 85 % of the revenue courses derive is obtained in the winter season when golfers from colder climates visit.

The article indicated that the cost of seed for overseeding purposes can cost $ 100,000  and a local Superintendent indicated that total overseeding costs can run as high as $ 350,000 to $ 500,000 annually.

The gist of the article was that overseeding may be on its way out for public and private courses due to cost.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why on earth if we're discussing affordable golf, would we limit the discussion to private courses?
First call back on 18 privately owned 18 hole pubic?
LESS than $300000,.so yes, there are metro ny courses under 825 k
and Pat you said NO COURSE would be under 825
Plenty of publics are, or they're NLE

Jeff,

Courses owned by municipalities have to be excluded because I don't believe that they pay property taxes, which as Matt Day pointed out, is a significant number.

In addition, I believe their operating budgets may be subsidized by the taxpayer and there may be a significant difference in municipal vs private accounting.

[Brent Hutto]

A minority of golf courses are private. Of the remainder, a very small minority are municipal. Most golf courses in the USA are neither private or municipal. Maybe this thread needs to bifurcate. One thread for the few courses that Pat wants to talk about and the other for the majority of courses which he does not.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Population wise, they represent a very significant portion of the golfing world.

Quick maths would indicate that population wise, they would make up less than 2% of the golfing world.

Please grace us with the assumptions and math behind your calculation.
Since the geographic area of NYC and SE FL probably amounts to 1,500-3,000 sq miles and the land mass in the world is 57,308,000 sq miles, I'd say that that 2 % is a huge number.

What you don't seem to grasp is that golf courses are synonymous with population densities.

The greater NYC and SE Florida population represent about 8 % of the total US. population, concentrated in a very small area. 

I don't see much point going back and forth as to whether this is a very significant proportion.

It's clear that it is.

As to courses in the middle of Asia, Africa or remote regions, I claim no knowledge of their financial operations.

How about Morris County, NJ?  

How about it ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

A minority of golf courses are private.


How many private ?
How many semi-private ?
How many open to the public are municipal/county/state owned
How many open to the public are privately owned.

Of the remainder, a very small minority are municipal.

Most golf courses in the USA are neither private or municipal.

Maybe this thread needs to bifurcate.

One thread for the few courses that Pat wants to talk about and the other for the majority of courses which he does not.

I suppose I could always talk about courses where I have absolutely no knowledge base, like many on this thread, or I can discuss courses where I have over 50 years of experience at a dozen courses, specifically at the green committee, finance committee and the board level.

Before we continue the discussion, why don't you and others detail for us, your first hand experience in terms of serving on the green committee, finance committee and boards of non-private clubs so that we can acquire a frame of reference regarding your level of involvement and expertise.

Thanks

[Jason Thurman]

4,415 private courses in the US.

11,581 courses open to the public.

2,449 municipal courses.

http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/Private_Club_Report_final.pdf
http://parksandrecreation.org/2012/March/Course-Numbers/
http://www.clemson.edu/centers-institutes/pennell/PDFs-2012/David-Hueber-Dissertation-7-17-12.pdf