[Niall C]

Further to the thread on water on a course, whether its a good thing or not. I think the argument generally comes down to how water in design generally is harder for poorer players to cope with and suits the better player more.

I think the obvious example where this is not the case is water behind the green which I think can be a better hazard than the flanking or fronting water hazard. Good players generally get the ball up to the pin or even a bit beyond whereas us mere hackers tend to be mostly short. A water hazard sitting behind the green, particularly where the pin is up the back, is so intimidating especially where there is no back stop or collar to the green to stop the ball running off. A much more intimidating shot in many ways.

A great example is one of Colts par 3's at County Sligo where there is a burn that runs hard behind the green. From memory, the hole requires decent dunt which makes distance control all the more challenging. Cullen has a similar par 3 in that respect but with the added difficulty of playing from an elevated tee. The "burn" behind is no more than a drainage ditch but the principle's the same.

Any other good examples out there ?

Niall

[cary lichtenstein]

Island greens, which I'm not fond of, are very hard when the wind is at your back. The 11th hole at the Ritz in Jupiter, 191 yards,  has a few dozen of my balls. The problem is when you have a 4 or 5 iron and a 20+ mph wind, a hard green, no apron grass, a flat green from front to back, it is just nearly impossible to stop the ball.

In these conditions, the hole is just unfair, even for the excellent player.

[Michael Goldstein]

Niall,  here are a few examples of water behind a green, although I'm having difficulty thinking of many:

the water behind 15 at ANGC?
the D. Steel downhill par three at Machrie in Scotland
the first at The lakes in Sydney

As far as hazards beyond the green, I think OOB is fairly common and can be equally as daunting, particularly when there is a back pin.   
 

[Melvyn Morrow]

I would love to see the fairway continue passed the Green, let the poor shot run its true course and let the player experience the cost of his wayward ways.  Bunkers and shallow bunkers give hope of recovery which IMHO is a reward for a poor shot. The other end of the spectrum is lakes/pond in place of bunkers, they just kill the interest in the Hole and possible the game stone dead. Players/golfers should have a choice in their game, 1st Machrihanish when the tide is out leaves the largest bunker I have ever come across, so you have a choice.

A wee burn is fine, it being natural and part of the landscape, but lakes and ponds are for the most part manmade and game killers.

So NO water behind the Green, just more fairway.

Melvyn

[Andy Troeger]

Niall,
I think water behind greens creates interesting situations, especially if back pin placements create a bit of a peninsula where the player has to really decide whether to challenge the pin and risk going in the drink or play a safe shot to the front of the green that might leave a tricky two-putt. Since I tend to hit the ball solid (not necessarily in the right direction) I've found those play with my head far more than carry hazards on regular length iron shots.

I think #18 at Congressional is a good use of this, although the water wraps around the front a bit too much to truly be what I'm trying to describe. Another good example is #12 at Sultan's Run in Indiana--link below (2nd photo w/ the orange tree). That one wraps around a bit too, but there's a bunch of room for a layup front right so I still really like the hole.

http://www.sultansrun.com/golf/proto/sultansrun/

[James Boon]

Niall,

Interesting observation? Yes, water behind a green could be a better hazard than in front of or to the side, as its more of a challenge to the better player, but wont come into play for the lesser player?

A few examples that spring to mind, though in a couple of cases the water hazard isnt hard to the back of the green:

Royal Portrush, 5th
Askernish, 11th
North Berwick, 14th
The Old Course, 11th???

Didn't the 6th at Deal used to have the beach hard behind it until the sea wall / defences were built?

Cheers,

James

[Tim Nugent]

Water behind the green? Arrrrgh!!!  The biggest quandary I have with it is once players roll or bounce (rarely will anyone ever overclub to the point of flying it in)  is they don't know where to play their next shot from.

[Adrian_Stiff]

As Tim points out, its very difficult to integrate water behind a green to the modern rules. You have to be sure on the point of entry and traditional greens sitting towards the golfer then cause an element of partial blindness. Water needs to be seen so the opportunities are reduced. Blind water hazards are rather rubbish.

[Jason Topp]

There is a nice one at Kinloch.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Is it blind Jason?

[David_Tepper]

James Boon -

How about the beach behind (and to the right of) the 9th at Brora?

DT

[Tom_Doak]

Royal Portrush, 5th

James:  I believe the card at Portrush has the cliff edge behind the 5th green playing as out of bounds, not as a water hazard ... if you go over the edge, you have to play again from where you just hit it o.b.

[Pete_Pittock]

Holes in Oregon
Bandon Dunes 12, 16 both probably the best of the lot with the countering pot bumkers
Pacific Dunes 4, 10
Old Macdonald 7?
Portland GC 1, 7, 10

[Wade Whitehead]

I recall a par three at The Olde Farm with water long.

WW

[JLahrman]

Holes in Oregon
Bandon Dunes 12, 16 both probably the best of the lot with the countering pot bumkers
Pacific Dunes 4, 10
Old Macdonald 7?
Portland GC 1, 7, 10

I thinned an iron over the 13th at PD, it found a hazard.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I really do not see the issue with the rules and what to do if you find the water, just drop another. Also water,or any obstacles behind the green, usually do not come into play and are rated lower because of it.

If I recall water is behind 11 on TOC.

[Jay Flemma]

15 at Paako Ridge.  The hole runs severely downhill, so you must be careful...

[David_Tepper]

The green on the 9th hole at Pauma Valley (RT Jones, San Diego County, CA) juts into a pond. It has water behind and on both sides. There is a similar green at Congressional CC.

[jeffwarne]

Royal Portrush, 5th

James:  I believe the card at Portrush has the cliff edge behind the 5th green playing as out of bounds, not as a water hazard ... if you go over the edge, you have to play again from where you just hit it o.b.

Water doesn't seem so bad then .

On many links courses, you could lose a ball(stroke and distance) on virtually any swing, why would water be such a horrendous hazrad over the dgreen where one could drop it, as opposed to hitting it over a green and losing it in fescue, gorse, or heather?
I'm amazed at the disdain for water on this site (we all know it's been horribly overused by many developers/architects)
When used as a natural feature occasionally and strategically, I find it quite appealing (it's certainly better than searching)

As Tom points out OB is much worse than water

Water or OB over green demands better driving because a flyer is the most likely reason one would go long .
Coming out of the rough gets quite scary in such instances (#4 at Southampton)

[Adrian_Stiff]

I really do not see the issue with the rules and what to do if you find the water, just drop another. Also water,or any obstacles behind the green, usually do not come into play and are rated lower because of it.

If I recall water is behind 11 on TOC.

Ed - If you do that you are disqualified if you dont see the ball go into the hazard. You must be 100% sure the ball is in the hazard. Any long grass on a bank leading into the hazard means you cant be 100% sure. Water Hazards behid a green often are partially blind.

[Tim Gavrich]

I played a hole today--#12 at Heritage Club here in Pawleys Island--where water directly behind the green completely dictates the strategy of the hole to great (IMO) effect.  It's a short par four--a drive and a wedge for most--with a gigantic green that is some 50 yards from front to back and at least 30, 35 yards wide.  The front half of the green slopes gently from back to front and then at the midway point, the green drops about three feet to a back portion where any hole location is semi-blind (you can only see the top half of the stick).  A step off the back edge of the green is a large lake.  Because of the way the green is contoured, the wedge shot to any pin on that rear, lower half of the green is a white-knuckler and absolutely thrilling if you pull it off (I did, but missed my seven-footer for birdie, naturally).  If there was no water behind, the approach would not be nearly as psychologically taxing.  The presence of that hazard makes it a great golf hole.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I really do not see the issue with the rules and what to do if you find the water, just drop another. Also water,or any obstacles behind the green, usually do not come into play and are rated lower because of it.

If I recall water is behind 11 on TOC.

Ed - If you do that you are disqualified if you dont see the ball go into the hazard. You must be 100% sure the ball is in the hazard. Any long grass on a bank leading into the hazard means you cant be 100% sure. Water Hazards behid a green often are partially blind.

agreed, known or virtually certain is a good point to consider.

[Sam Morrow]

Island greens, which I'm not fond of, are very hard when the wind is at your back. The 11th hole at the Ritz in Jupiter, 191 yards,  has a few dozen of my balls. The problem is when you have a 4 or 5 iron and a 20+ mph wind, a hard green, no apron grass, a flat green from front to back, it is just nearly impossible to stop the ball.

In these conditions, the hole is just unfair, even for the excellent player.

Maybe you should move up a set of tees so you don't have to play from 191.

[Bill Brightly]

William Gordon is an architect that we don't discuss much. His best courses are Stanwich, Saucon Valley Grace and Weyhill. When he was building Grace, he communicated with a local surveyor in Scotland, who sent him exact specs on the Eden hole at TOC. Gordon built a really great version, as good as any I have played, except there is no water behind the green, even though the Saucon Creek meandors throughout the entire property. He had PLENTY of places to use the creek and create a more perfect copy. It always bugged me, so I sent an email to his son David who responded: "Dad did not believe in hazrads behind greens, he felt going long was penalty enough." So that explained the mystery, and also why he took out every bunker behind a green when he was asked to "modernize" Hackensack (Banks) in 1961.

[Jason Topp]

I really do not see the issue with the rules and what to do if you find the water, just drop another. Also water,or any obstacles behind the green, usually do not come into play and are rated lower because of it.

If I recall water is behind 11 on TOC.

Ed - If you do that you are disqualified if you dont see the ball go into the hazard. You must be 100% sure the ball is in the hazard. Any long grass on a bank leading into the hazard means you cant be 100% sure. Water Hazards behid a green often are partially blind.

agreed, known or virtually certain is a good point to consider.

I  have never understood the standard to be that stringent.   At the hole I named the test would be met even though it is blind. There is no tall grass betweem the green and the water.  Physics would dictate it had to go in.

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