Water vs. Gorse

[David_Tepper]

The presence of water (lakes, ponds and perhaps even the wee burn) as a hazard on a golf course is frowned upon by certain GCAs and GCA-ers. Yet there is little concern from those same quarters when gorse is present and well in play. I wonder why this is.

Hitting a ball into either offers no chance of recovery. In fact, one could argue that gorse is a far more severe hazard, as it results in a stroke & distance penalty, just like hitting a ball out of bounds. On the other hand, relief from hitting into water (whether staked yellow or red) allows for a drop at the point of entry.

Why the difference?       

[Joe_Tucholski]

Many people don't play a lost ball outside a hazard as a stroke and distance penalty? 

The other could be the proximity to the line of play.  I don't think many people would approve of a green surrounded by gorse.  I guess the question should be if you object to a water hazard would you object if the same hazard was replaced by gorse and vice a versa.  I think the answer in most cases would be yes.

[Lou_Duran]

Tradition.  Because it (gorse) was endemic and part of the game from the outset?  Maybe because water hazards have been overdone on many courses, often require $$$$$ to be made to look natural, and are at times in the wrong places forcing the holes and/or messing up the routing.  Flowering gorse framing the playing corridors can be pretty dramatic.

[Sean Leary]

No difference but gorse is visually more pleasing to the eye.

[Carl Johnson]

Excellent question.  After my first experience hitting a ball into gorse on a trip to Scotland about 10 years ago, I said, and not just to myself, "this is like hitting a ball into the water."  Moreover, as you point out, it may be worse.  For example, if you can see the ball, identify it, but can't practically get at it, which is easy to happen with a ball hit into gorse, you might be able to take a reasonable drop with a one-stroke penalty under the unplayable lie rule.

Off the top of my head, I'd say one reason for the difference is the distinct nature of water as compared with gorse, which is just one (albeit a very nasty one) of many different kind of plants into which when you hit a ball recovery becomes at best problematic.  If you are going to turn gorse into a water-type hazard, then what other types of plant life would you apply the same rule to?  (Of course, I've played any number of daily-fee courses that mark thick brush on the sides of fairways as lateral water hazards simply to encourage play to keep moving.)

I'd also want to take look at the historical evolution of the water hazard and unplayable lie and lost ball/o.b. rules.  Actually, I'd rather have someone else do that and report back.

[Matthew Rose]

Water is "artificial", gorse is "natural". I gather that's the distinction.

I don't mind water on a course at all. I find in many cases it is visually pleasing and adds to my Zen experience.

I also know if I hit a ball in it, chances are I won't find it, so I won't waste my time looking for it (and holding up the group behind me). Few things frustrate me more than watching a foursome of hackers look for their ball in long grass on every single hole.

Not that I have anything against gorse... it's traditional, it may offer some sense of recovery, and it some cases it can be aesthetically pleasing as well. I just hate it when it lines both sides of every fairway of a muni course.

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

One has to ask what is more natural on a links course a lake pond or gorse. So it’s gorse for me, although a wee burn adds some colour if not refreshment.

This is where (I believe) I differ from many on this site, in that I look and play on what I hope is natural courses.  Being the best to encourage ones game over what is in effect Nature’s own surroundings. Hence my wish that courses be fit for purpose. That purpose is the Royal & Ancient game of golf.

Play over a manmade Disneyland of a course, say the likes of The Castle Course at St Andrews and your game is not real, it is just a rollercoaster of modern ideas not matching in with the local surrounding land – its alien, its fake, its unworthy of trying to play the great game of Golf.

The sad thing is that the modern game perhaps by demand for local availability seems to seek quantity over quality, but IMHO this is to totally misunderstand the game and its ultimate goal of playing over the natural contours of the land  - that IMHO is what golf is all about.

Melvyn

[Matthew Rose]

I might add that location and environment is part of the deal.

Gorse in Scotland or on the American coastline looks and feels appropriate.

Gorse in south Florida looks kind of silly.

[Garland Bayley]

I lost 5 balls to the gorse at Pacific Dunes. I am not a happy camper either way, water or gorse. You go in either, and for all practical purposes the hole is over, your opponent wins.

The average golfer needs to have chances to recover from his mistakes, not just pack it in and head to the next tee.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Matthew

This is my point  - land fit for purpose.  We build courses because of demand from the local people, no matter if the land or environment is suitable for the playing of golf.  This is when modern clients and designers tinker not just with the design but affect the way the game is played, it’s not as it was, it’s not as IMHO it should be. It’s this strange compromise of game controlled by all factors but the natural land.

I believe that the modern course has outstripped the game, it’s a TV circus all for the mighty Dollar or Euro perhaps even £, whatever, it’s moved from its original goals, you know that original game that went worlwide so quickly. Today it’s been abused and put into care and waiting adoption to anyone with a pot full of coins in their pocket and a parcel of land - to start the whole abuse process all over again. Land fit for purpose must be at the heart of the decision making, not just an afterthought, that is if you really want to play Golf.

Melvyn

[Ed Brzezowski]

The " average golfer " needs to realize his strengths and weaknesses and play from the correct tee. Regardless of it being water or gorse the guys I see all need career shots to cross these hazards. At my home course you repeatly see gents trying to clear far off hazards because that's how you play. Gorse or water in a natural surrounding is beautiful, gorse in Florida?? Now that's just wrong.

Plus I played the Castle twice, while a bit of a reach it really is not a terrible course. Yes it is a modern day interpertation of links golf but I cannot see some of the names it has been called on some threads. The gorse and water there has all been added, but calling it a " potato field ruined" is a bit harsh. All things in moderation.

[Garland Bayley]

Ed,

A lot of average golfers play according to their abilities.

Contrast that to the excellent golf that finds himself in a pot bunker and calls it "unfair".

[Garland Bayley]

Ed,

A lot of average golfers play according to their abilities.

Contrast that to the excellent golf that finds himself in a pot bunker and calls it "unfair".

[Melvyn Morrow]

ED

Ok it’s a Wheatfield, Hay or Cornfield, whatever it’s a big fake manmade course trying to bask in the glory of a real St Andrews course. It’s a course that should never have been built upon that site, but no lesson learnt, it was and still is all about money, not GOLF.

Melvyn

[Ed Brzezowski]

Garland,

 I fully understand your point but i get a bit jaded since i get to rate golf courses and always seem to hear that some feature, ususally water is an unfair hazard. Alot of what my team hears is that the course is to difficult for the average golfer. Then we circle back just to watch and see they have no business playing from a set of 6600 yard tees.

Personally i love watch the grinders get into an "unfair bunker'. First option is to play around, long or short of it. Finally try to hit a realistic shot out. Played TOC in July, my buddy took nine whacks before he realized sometimes the best play is away fom the green.

Course management, a dead or dying art.


ed

[Ed Brzezowski]

ED

Ok it’s a Wheatfield, Hay or Cornfield, whatever it’s a big fake manmade course trying to bask in the glory of a real St Andrews course. It’s a course that should never have been built upon that site, but no lesson learnt, it was and still is all about money, not GOLF.

Melvyn

Melvyn,
I agree completely, i just think to call it trash is wrong. My guess is DMK put his heart and soul  into that plot of land. Or maybe the book about it is total nonsense.

ed

[Ed Brzezowski]

wow  I killed the thread.

[Garland Bayley]

wow  I killed the thread.

You're too impatient my friend.

[Ed Brzezowski]

wow  I killed the thread.

You're too impatient my friend.

Thank you, at times this seems to be a closed society. i appreciate your note.
ed

[Garland Bayley]

wow  I killed the thread.

You're too impatient my friend.

Thank you, at times this seems to be a closed society. i appreciate your note.
ed

It is a closed society. But some of us are to stubborn to let that get us down.

It will be interesting to see what David thinks of the responses to his thread. But, right now he is off reading the entire internet.

[Ed Brzezowski]

long live the underappreciated who don't know better

[Melvyn Morrow]

ED

What Book   But yes the course is not IMHO a Scottish course but more an international one. As for the amount of work undertaken by DMK, alas IMHO its does not show. But then for St Andrews I was expecting a course FIT FOR PURPOSE and in the tradition of the local game.

Melvyn

[Garland Bayley]

ED

What Book   But yes the course is not IMHO a Scottish course but more an international one. As for the amount of work undertaken by DMK, alas IMHO its does not show. But then for St Andrews I was expecting a course FIT FOR PURPOSE and in the tradition of the local game.

Melvyn

The Seventh at St. Andrews

Tells the story of the creation of the Castle Course.

[Jackson C]

I agree with both -- gorse is penal AND it naturally fits on a links course.

However, gorse is not found in large quantities on some links courses.  So you may be able to avoid it by choosing the course.

What I found extremely penal is heather -- seas of heather lining the fairways.  It does not look dangerous off the tee because it is low to the ground and appears to simply accent/outline the fairway.  However, I found it nearly impossible to find my ball(s), as the plant is tightly woven even if it is only a few inches off the ground.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Garland

Ah yes the Devils work ‘The Seventh at St Andrews’  It’s the on-going story of getting value for money or was it one of Westminster’s finest using his Parliamentary expenses to build a golf course. Well its better than getting ones moat repaired, but then having seen Le Castle I’m not certain. Whatever its clearly the Devils work.

Melvyn   

PS Heather, now there was a Lady, if you did not satisfy her she was certainly extremely penal, well known as a nut cracker, if you get my painful drift. I too had trouble at times finding my balls with Heather, but she is a beauty.