[John Kavanaugh]

Kavanaugh...your statement regarding Supers. and the weather is stupid.  In your biz if it turns cold and snows on May 1st you might not work and you have some juggling of the schedule to do....for the Super his turf might die. HUGE difference. Neither you nor the Super has any control over the weather, but the outcomes are totally different

In my 10 years as a green keeper, and my 10 years in the nursery business, the weather, what the weather is doing, will do, and might do, drives 90% of the decisions I have to make about the product I am selling....weather its cold hardy plants or the condition of the golf course. I can't control the weather, I can only react. If you think there's some magic formula to guarantee success you are wrong. You do the best you can with the knowledge you have and keep your fingers crossed.

Thank God we live in a capitalistic society where those capable of making decisions are aptly rewarded.  You react and keep your fingers crossed, good luck with that.

[Kalen Braley]

Kavanaugh...your statement regarding Supers. and the weather is stupid.  In your biz if it turns cold and snows on May 1st you might not work and you have some juggling of the schedule to do....for the Super his turf might die. HUGE difference. Neither you nor the Super has any control over the weather, but the outcomes are totally different

In my 10 years as a green keeper, and my 10 years in the nursery business, the weather, what the weather is doing, will do, and might do, drives 90% of the decisions I have to make about the product I am selling....weather its cold hardy plants or the condition of the golf course. I can't control the weather, I can only react. If you think there's some magic formula to guarantee success you are wrong. You do the best you can with the knowledge you have and keep your fingers crossed.

+1

I was thinking the same.  My dad(retired) and brother are both civil engineers, so I know a bit about road/bridge building.  For JK to compare building roads to maintaining a golf course is laughable at best. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Kavanaugh...your statement regarding Supers. and the weather is stupid.  In your biz if it turns cold and snows on May 1st you might not work and you have some juggling of the schedule to do....for the Super his turf might die. HUGE difference. Neither you nor the Super has any control over the weather, but the outcomes are totally different

In my 10 years as a green keeper, and my 10 years in the nursery business, the weather, what the weather is doing, will do, and might do, drives 90% of the decisions I have to make about the product I am selling....weather its cold hardy plants or the condition of the golf course. I can't control the weather, I can only react. If you think there's some magic formula to guarantee success you are wrong. You do the best you can with the knowledge you have and keep your fingers crossed.

+1

I was thinking the same.  My dad(retired) and brother are both civil engineers, so I know a bit about road/bridge building.  For JK to compare building roads to maintaining a golf course is laughable at best.  

Ok, Kalen, most road and or bridge projects now span over the length of a year with a winter break included.  Please give me one example of how managing weather patterns is different for this business when compared to maintaining a golf course?  Please note that I use the word manage the weather, not react to the weather.

[Michael Hayes]

As a Golf Course Superintendent for the last 13 years, I have a lot of empathy for my peers who have dealt with less than desirable work environments.  I have been involved in my fair share over the years, but as bad as those individual instances are I always remember why I chose this life: 99% of the people that I come in contact with on a daily basis are having fun as a direct result of my efforts.  I get to see a golf course at the 2 most beautiful times of the day, dawn and dusk… If it seems overwhelming at times I just remember that growing grass isn’t Rocket Science,  hell it grows in the cracks of JK's pavement.

With respect to weather and other outside influences, I am a firm believer that we create our own luck 99% of the time.  I try to rely on the 7 P’s and check tomorrow’s forcast…and always go with the flow.

Michael Hayes

[Steve Okula]

Thank God we live in a capitalistic society where those capable of making decisions are aptly rewarded. 

Yeah, like Wall Street executives making a killing on credit default swaps.

[Greg Tallman]

I think I'm glad both of my clubs have been benevolent dictatorships...

Amen, most/many good ones are

[Bill Brightly]

Mike,

Rather than agree to disagree, I'll bet that I am speaking about well-established ODG courses, with long traditions and a well-defined roles for the board, committee chairs, and managers. I have little doubt that most of these clubs have effective board/manager relationships. Perhaps your experience is with newer courses and newer memberships. I feel bad that someone in the business has such disdain for the volunteer board model. I served on my club board for 7 years and am quite proud of what was accomplished and the manner in which it was done.

All you guys favoring benevolent dictatorships would change your tune in a heart beat if the dictator started planting flowers, trees and making other changes to suit his (or his wife's) tastes... What would your answer be to that, a revolution? If that answer is yes, remember that when you shoot for the king, you better not miss, because if you do you are out of the club...

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

Rather than agree to disagree, I'll bet that I am speaking about well-established ODG courses, with long traditions and a well-defined roles for the board, committee chairs, and managers. I have little doubt that most of these clubs have effective board/manager relationships. Perhaps your experience is with newer courses and newer memberships. I feel bad that someone in the business has such disdain for the volunteer board model. I served on my club board for 7 years and am quite proud of what was accomplished and the manner in which it was done.

All you guys favoring benevolent dictatorships would change your tune in a heart beat if the dictator started planting flowers, trees and making other changes to suit his (or his wife's) tastes... What would your answer be to that, a revolution? If that answer is yes, remember that when you shoot for the king, you better not miss, because if you do you are out of the club...

Bill,
I am a member of an ODG club.  Why do you think so many of these places have had 3 million and more spent on redos if it weren't for boards as I describe.  The fathers watched the club's money. The Sons decide they know how to bring these places to a new level and when you see the flat screen TV over the urinals or when the board takes a trip and the next year the locker room looks like the newest resort...well that sort of says it for me.  It really aggravates me more than any subject regarding ODG clubs....the amount of BS and hype sold to these boards by consultants .
AND I will still take my chances with the benevolent dictator.

[Jud_T]

Bill,

I guess at least with the dictator you generally know what you're getting into at the time of entry.  Sure the guy could always go crazy, but that's less of a risk than dealing with the shifting sands of politics and tastes of boards.

[Bill Brightly]

OK, I give up, I am surrounded by cynics and sheep!

[Jason Walker]

Bill-

Don't fret...I've been watching from the sidelines and agree with you.

From this thread you'd think that every board in America has bankrupted or dismantled their club by mismanagement!

[Kalen Braley]

Bill-

Don't fret...I've been watching from the sidelines and agree with you.

From this thread you'd think that every board in America has bankrupted or dismantled their club by mismanagement!

Its easy to be cynical when you take your cues from government figures and corporations/lobbying groups at the top who have run this country into the ground.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill-

Don't fret...I've been watching from the sidelines and agree with you.

From this thread you'd think that every board in America has bankrupted or dismantled their club by mismanagement!

Its easy to be cynical when you take your cues from government figures and corporations/lobbying groups at the top who have run this country into the ground.

Kalen,

The government figures you reference didn't get to their positions by winning the lottery.

They were voted into office by the electorate, the people.

I don't want to divert this thread, but, if you had a choice, to which year would you return America to ?

[Kalen Braley]

Bill-

Don't fret...I've been watching from the sidelines and agree with you.

From this thread you'd think that every board in America has bankrupted or dismantled their club by mismanagement!

Its easy to be cynical when you take your cues from government figures and corporations/lobbying groups at the top who have run this country into the ground.

Kalen,

The government figures you reference didn't get to their positions by winning the lottery.

They were voted into office by the electorate, the people.

I don't want to divert this thread, but, if you had a choice, to which year would you return America to ?

How about the 60s:

1)  Growth was booming economically.
2)  Govt projects were all or mostly funded BEFORE being started.
3)  The super rich (top 1%) paid a real tax rate (70-75% tax rate on every dollar made over $200,000).
4)   Blue Collars workers could purchase homes and afford health care insurance.
5)   The ratio between the highest paid person and lowest paid person in corporations was 20-1 instead of 300-1.
6)   Corporate lobbying in Washington was virtually non-existent, it hadn't been invented yet for the most part.

I can go on and on.  In these current conditions, the rich are eating/consuming everything and leading us straight into another depression.

[Terry Lavin]

Enough dirt gravitas to shut the membership's collective mouths.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How about the 60s:

I'd go with the early 60's, before the drug culture surfaced.

1)  Growth was booming economically.

Agreed

2)  Govt projects were all or mostly funded BEFORE being started.

Agreed

3)  The super rich (top 1%) paid a real tax rate (70-75% tax rate on every dollar made over $200,000).

That's incorrect, it was for incomes in excess of $ 250,001, and offsetting that income were an enormous number of deductions, which the Bradley revision eliminated.  When I got out of college in 1964, executives made a whopping $ 25,000.  Almost noone made $ 250,000 or more.
Presently, in NJ, those making less than $ 1,000,000 who own their own business pay approximately 65 %.
Should their fare share be 75 %, 85 % or 95 % ?
How about the 50 million or so who file returns, who pay no tax.
Shouldn't they have to pay a minimum, say $ 1,000.  That would raise $ 50,000,000,000 per year

4)   Blue Collars workers could purchase homes and afford health care insurance.

In the 60's healthcare was paid for, entirely, by the employer.
Employee contributions were unheard of.
As to housing, you had to put down 20 % or more.
And, banks didn't have to lend money to people who they knew couldn't pay it back.
With no money down, people gambled with home ownership, betting on the come.
And, look what happened.
And then, morons in congress, ahh, but, I repeat myself, repealed Glass-Steagall, then more morons passed Dodd-Frank instead of reinstating Glass-Steagall.  33 pages compared to 2,200 pages, plus 50,000 pages of regulations

5)   The ratio between the highest paid person and lowest paid person in corporations was 20-1 instead of 300-1.

That's also got to do with the size of corporations.
In 1960 which corporation had a market cap of 1 Billion.
Today, that's small potatos.

6)   Corporate lobbying in Washington was virtually non-existent, it hadn't been invented yet for the most part.
To maintain that "influence" didn't exist is to be naive or agenda driven.
Influence and prostitution have existed since man discovered bartering/cash.

I can go on and on.  In these current conditions, the rich are eating/consuming everything and leading us straight into another depression.
Last I looked, the rich started, expanded and manage the corporations that hire everyone.
The rich put their capital at risk to start and expand businesses, allowing those businesses to hire workers, skilled and unskilled.

The rich pay high income taxes.
Warren Buffet payed a lower tax rate than his secretary because most of his income was capital gains and hers was ordinary income.
He took $ 20,000,000 in deductions.  WHY, he claims that very wealthy Americans, and he's certainly one of them, should pay more in taxes.
Yet, rather than pay more, he took $ 20,000,000 in deductions and paid less.
And, rather than pay confiscatory estate taxes, he's leaving his money to charitable foundations and not paying a dime in taxes.

Actions speak louder than words.

[Mike_Young]

Bill-

Don't fret...I've been watching from the sidelines and agree with you.

From this thread you'd think that every board in America has bankrupted or dismantled their club by mismanagement!

I have not seen anyone say that a board mismanaged a club.  If I am being considered amongst the cynics let me say I am not a cynic but a realist when it comes to boards.  My take is that they are a very expensive way to run a club.  Many corporate executives would question executives on their corporate board much more than they would the golf pro at their club.  It's a weird thing.  The initial IPO's of Callaway and other golf stocks showed how easily otherwise savvy business people could be lured into golf businesses.  There was even an IPO for golf grips...
Over and over it is shown how vulnerable good businessmen are to golf business.  Good business people have allowed many a club to become a completely different animal all because of sales jobs by the various associations such as CMAA, PGA and others.  Just look at our dining rooms.   
Our last five club presidents have not played a collective 40 rounds between themselves over their collective terms.( five guys/five years and most of the golf by one guy)  Do you think the presidents of our father's clubs would be in that position?  No.

[Don_Mahaffey]

If I dig a hole in the road too soon before a weather event people die....


The weather is like a dog, it can smell fear and will attack those who express it.

When we make the GCA movie, Jack Nicholson is playing JK.

[Jim Nelson]

I haven't read this thread but wondered why it kept going on and on.  Just dropped in and wow!!   Nothing to do with golf.    Leaving for greener pastures. 

[Tony Ristola]

1. Hands on.
2. Capable of doing much with little.

In short, a guy that loves what he is doing, is a workaholic when he needs to be one, and infuses the modest staff with his love, caring and enthusiasm.

[Bob Jenkins]

I had a coffee with Dick Zokol this morning and as some of you know, Dick has been known to "lurk" on these pages. He and his architectural partner, Armen Suny, noticed this thread and have given me permission to post their response, which hopefully will appear below. Dick and Armen along with Rod Whitman are those responsible for Sagebrush.

"On the GCA thread “What do you want out of your Super.” My partner Armen Suny (Suny, Zokol Golf Design Ltd.) and who has his own executive search company for Superintendents to some of the finest private clubs in the US, stated it best:
… “You want to incent your Super to spend money like it’s his own… with every penny being saved, stays in his pocket.”
This philosophy is the most cost effective approach if a club can instill it. The inherent disease infested in typical maintenance budgets is that there is no incentive to save money or even be cost effective. How often do you see a Super come in under budget unless he has a gun to his head? In too many cases, maintenance budgets are spent only to ensure they get at least the same budget requirements for following year…. before lobbying for a bigger budget.
When Armen was at Marion, he stated that they didn’t come out any new equipment for 8-years back in the day, an extreme example I suppose. But a typical example at many private clubs in their AGM’s, extraordinary resolution always get voted through for over a few hundred thousand dollars annually just for new equipment, on top of a too high budget already.
The disease needs to be removed...
Zoke"

I think that make a lot of sense.
 
 

[Ian Andrew]

A good hockey player who can get me the puck in the annual golf superintendents hockey tournament.
(yes I play in it every year)

[Lou Cutolo]

A good superintendent needs to be politely correct and have to ability to forge strong relationships in the club with the Pro and Manager. They have more interaction with the members and will be able to keep the membership informed. Some of the issues I have seen are that the super is out on the course early before play and does not interact with the membership so it is easy to critique his performance without have any knowledge of how and why things are done. A super should be visible and available to the membership and not just to the current greens chair and board.

He also should be involved with his local association by serving on it board and attended its meetings. This will enable him to keep up to date with the latest trends and develop working relationships with other supertendents in the area.

Lou

[John Kavanaugh]

He also should be involved with his local association by serving on it board and attended its meetings.

Oh God no, I see this in every industry.  As you watch an employee move through the chairs of an organization you see his priorities change. You need to either promote him or cut him loose because his productive days are over.  A good man can only have one gavel in his life at a time.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I really do not care to get into this topic, but I sort of agree with Jaka and want to comment on what Lou said.
  Superintendents network all day long-photos, email, text, with eachother, with vendors and also members. More and more clubs are requesting that their Supeerintendents be seen, be approachable and available. I am not an advocate of Chapter meetings and GCSAA Board service. I think that it takes the Superintendent away from what he is supposed to be doing way too much, and on the GCSAA level, 50-100 days a year. I think that it's good to participate in SOME local events, but I think that too many Supts feel the need to go to EVERY event, whether it be a golfing event, meeting or fishing competition.(yes, I said that)
  I know on on average day, I talk/text/ email up to a dozen Superintendents and vendors and I didn't have to leave property and know what is happening in many areas of the country. ( it does help that I have worked all over and have a father in the golf business) Technology has made is much easier to accomplish this while in a golf cart, standing on a fairway, looking at a green or helping the crew work.
  Especially when serving on a committee, I think that a Superintendet is gone far too much with this and the GCSAA needs to come up with a better way to accomplish these tasks without having the need to be gone so much. A membership hires a Superintendent to manage the turf on their course, be at their disposal and make the experience as good as it can be with the funds available.
  I think that it's important that we (Superintendents) "stay in our lanes" and do what we were hired to do to the best of our abilities.  Participation is important, yes, but to the lengths that it is now being taken, one can't be surprised if an outcome is not positive.

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