[Paul Richards]

David:

Nice work with the Michigan decile rankings!

Jeff:

I also wish the Illini would have made the Rose Bowl instead
of the Sugar Bowl as Big Ten Champs!

Their last visit to the Rose was less than spectacular, but
the season itself leading up to it was amazing!  As a sophomore at that time, I was convinced we would have
been to a few more Rose Bowl's by now!!

Go ILLINI!!!

[Tom Doak]

The only problem I see with this is that the courses in the "middle" are not so easily separated, other than by personal taste.  [Some would argue the same is true for the top end, but there's a better consensus.]

For instance, John V, I was surprised to see Running Y Ranch only in your third decile.  I haven't seen it, but assumed from the GOLF DIGEST ranking that most people would have it at least in their second decile.  The difference would be HUGE to them.

Similarly, my own decile rankings for Michigan would be very different from David Wigler's, and not just relative to my own work.

[John_Conley]

Mr. Doak:

I agree, which is why a Top 4 decile followed by 3 quintiles may actually be more true.  I've stated several times that some 4ths would be very close to some 7ths.

As I understand deciles versus the Doak Scale that most are more familiar with...

0 Doak = 10th decile
1 Doak = 9th
2 Doak = 7th and 8th
3 Doak = 5th and 6th
4 Doak = 3rd and 4th
5 Doak = 2nd
6 Doak = 1st
7 Doak = The top 1 or 2%  (for example, Interlachen only gets a 6 and it is ALWAYS ranked)
8,9,10 = VERY rarely given.

The Doak Scale is perfect for deciding which courses to go out of your way for.  Deciling seems to work well for Oregon, Northern California, Illinois, Florida, and any other areas anybody wants to sort out!!  Of course there will always be mild disagreements, but most people won't confuse 2nd and 6th quintilers.

Depending on taste, people will argue over whether the 2nd deciler is any good and I hope this thread illustrates it may be only a difference in standards.  ONE ANALOGY... Everyone would agree that Denny's is about an 8th decile restaurant, yet a lot of people gladly eat there over and over.  "If ya gotta eat..."  Well, hey, I gotta play golf.

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

You said:
>my own decile rankings for Michigan would be very different
>from David Wigler's, and not just relative to my own work.

What are these differences?

[David Wigler]

Paul,

As I read my list a day later and see Tom's comments, I see the struggle with this rating system.  The only place where I really question if I got carried away was that Oakland U's Sharf course is probably too high.  The splits at the bottom were near impossible.  I was splitting hairs between the mediocre and the mediocre.  The other issue is Jeff's point.  I think Oakland Hill's is the top of the first 11.  Treetops, Thoroughbred, or Legend is the bottom.  The difference between the two is huge.  The difference between the worst course in the seventh and the best in the eight is indistinguishable.

Two other changes.  I had Black Forest in the third and fourth.  It belongs in the third and I had totally excluded The Fortress as I promised to erase the memory of the course that holds the single worst hole ever designed from my mind.  It could be put anywhere from eight on.

Thanks for your Illinois list.  I really appreciated it.

[Paul Richards]

David:

I agree this was tough.

The difference between an eighth or ninth tier course
is nondescript.

Most of us prefer to concentrate on the top 2 or 3 tiers
anyways.

An interesting exercise, but we shouldn't get too caught
up in it.

As far as Michigan goes, I seem to agree with your
choices as well.

[John_Conley]

David, Paul:

Thanks for the effort and feedback.  I wouldn't spend too much time trying to separate "the mediocre from the mediocre"!  But I think you'll definitely be able to have a handle on what to expect if you came to Orlando and chose three courses near your hotel with my list and an idea of what they cost.

It'd be better than getting jacked for $90 at International near Sea World because the concierge recommended it.  Did he tell you they let him bring out his buddies for free?  Oh, I'm sorry he left that part out.

Perhaps three bottom quintiles for the lowest 60%, three deciles for the next 30%, and migrating to a Doak-like method for the top 10% works better for you.

I am just trying to get others to think in terms of a broader scope.  Go to Ireland and play Portrush, Portstewart, Old Head, County Down, Carne, Lahinch, Island, Portmarnock, and Ballybunion and your description of Carne could be "lousy".  If I went there for something else and had time for only one round I might find it pretty good, as would you under the same circumstances.  Deciling strips away all context.

We've read ad nauseum about how bad Pelican Hill is, but I still have yet to hear that it ranks below the 4th decile from even its harshest critics.  See my point?

Thanks again for taking the time to crank out your lists.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Gentlemen, Only a 16 team and it may take 24 playing into a 16 team playoff to get a real champion. LSU may have won the SEC but florida is the best team. LSU will give the Illinillies all they want and win 35 to 24 this tues and I will be there. I am having trouble finding the level of hatred I have for Ole Miss or florida or auburn or alabama ot Tenn ot Texas A&M for a team surrounded by corn. But as the coach said on the radio 5 minutes ago when tues come I will be pissed of and ready to play. GO TIGERS!!! Thak John on the conditioning issue I generally agree but for reason discussed on another topic feel it is an issue for it does take a budget to keep the grass healthy and in good playing condition. I will stick to your format and * a course with financial issues that create a problem there.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Louisiana, there are a number of courses I have not played which are not mentioned here in the Houma area and the west bank of New Orleans. there are also a couple new courses in Shreveport I have not seen yet. There is also a new Fazio course in Ruston that has great promise as a 1 or 2.

1. Country Club of La
    Oakbourne CC
     Money Hill
    Bayou DeSaird Cc
    Southern Trace*
    Bluffs*
2.  English Turn*
     Baton Rouge CC
     Gray Plantation
     Letriumph
      University Club-LSU
3. Beau Chene
    Ellendale CC
    Shreveport CC
    East Ridge CC
    Alexandria CC
    Lake Charles CC
    New Orleans CC
    Metairie CC
    Lakewood CC
4. Oak Harbor
    Belle Terre
    Eastover
    Gemstone
    Pelican Pointe
5. SquirelRun
    Covington cc
    Santa Maria
    Island
    Cypress Bend
     Huntington park*
     Palmetto CC
     Northwood cc
     Ormond CC
6.   Pine Hills
     Rapids Cc
     Stonebridge
      Chateau
     Colonial
      Tomahka Trace
      Sherwood  Forest
7.   Fairwood
      Briarwood
      Acadian Hills
      Frenchmens Bend
      Springhill
       jennings
      Shenendoah
       Ruston cc
8.    Abbeville
       Caldwell
       LSU golf course
       Indian Hills
9.    Bayou Bend
       City Park New Olreans, maybe a 6 for its better course
       LeVieux chene Lafayette
       Mallard Cove
       Webb park
        Querbes Park
10.Chenault Park
     Monroe Muni
      Lafayette Muni
      Audubon Park
 There is also a TPC course being built in new Olrleans as well as a new daily fee in lafayette.
        
        
      
    
    
  
 
  

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Louisiana I would highly recomend any of the 1 or 2period for a good to great golf experience. The one's while not top 100 courses are good well designed courses that anyone would enjoy.

[Paul Richards]

John:

Enjoy the game!

Illini 45, LSU 28.  

One more time!

I-L-L,

I-N-I !!

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Paul, I can see this will need to be desided by honorable men. David Toms has been wearing the purple and gold proudly this year. Who from the Iliini would you like to have play him. No doubt David will be at the game as will I. I am just glad you did not go to Stanford. lol LSU 35  Illini 24. Go Tigers!!!! By the by it seems your QB and ours became friends over the summer and the two teams have been very nice to each other. However all bets are off Tuesday on the nice stuff. Have a happy new year! You know being 0 and 1 in 2002 does not have to count against next year, just this year. I am getting very excited about the game.

[JakaB]

Paul,

It is hard to believe I live in Illinois and have played only eight courses on your list...I found it very informative and thought your ranking of Orchard Valley was very fair...I am going to Chicago Wednesday for funsies and to take my 6 year old to see the Bulls...email me if you want to have lunch or a drink.

[Paul Richards]

JakaB:

Unfortunately, I have to work today.  End of the year markets, and all.

Remember, the Illini also had a big pro golf victory when
Steve Stricker won that world match-play over the big boys.

Go ILLINI!!

[THuckaby2]

Ed Baker - very astute - let's hope Mother Clorox never does look too hard at my computer!

And John C - saying the BCS does a better job of producing a champion than the previous systems is like saying I'm a better golfer than my friend when I shoot 110 and him 112.  I'll grant you that the BCS does indeed do the best job of this that has ever existed - but no system has EVER determined a champion in college football.

It comes down to this:  do you want to determine the "best team", or the "champion"?  The BCS does NEITHER, not with any certainty.  At least an 8-team playoff would come close to doing the latter... 16 would do better, but I am a realist and we gotta start somewhere.

Nope, sorry, the BCS needs to be scrapped.  This year proves it more than ever before.

Or perhaps you don't believe in settling things on the field?

To the rest on this thread - WOW!  I am loving all these lists.  By the way John B - I might have missed it but is Bayou Oaks on there anywhere?  That's a muni in New Orleans, sadly the only course I've played in your state... I found it to be damn fun!

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Tom, how ironic the only course you have played is one that I have not. lol Happy New Years to you and your family. And of course help me bring the Tigers home with a great victory. Go Tigers!!!! LSU 1-0 in 2002.

[THuckaby2]

JDB - no surprise really, Bayou Oaks was just the only course within a cheap cab ride of the French Quarter that I could find... it's not one you would seek out anyway.  It would be at the bottom of your list most definitely!

And GO TIGERS!  

(sorry Paul, but not only do I have to stick with my loyalty to Mr. Berhardt given our great times together in the past year, but an old girlfriend who dumped my sorry butt went to Illinois so I am anti-Illini whenever given the chance!)

TH

[John_Conley]

And John C - saying the BCS does a better job of producing a champion than the previous systems is like saying I'm a better golfer than my friend when I shoot 110 and him 112.  I'll grant you that the BCS does indeed do the best job of this that has ever existed - but no system has EVER determined a champion in college football.

It comes down to this:  do you want to determine the "best team", or the "champion"?  The BCS does NEITHER, not with any certainty.  At least an 8-team playoff would come close to doing the latter... 16 would do better, but I am a realist and we gotta start somewhere.

Nope, sorry, the BCS needs to be scrapped.  This year proves it more than ever before.

It is UNCONSCIONABLE to me that you want a playoff for college football, yet in absence of one are against the only system that would have allowed Miami & Washington in 1991 and Arizona State & Florida State in 1996 to "settle it ON THE FIELD".

Those 'canes shut out Nebraska in the Orange Bowl to earn the AP honors.  A decade later they'll have to beat the 'Huskers in the Rose Bowl - which at least won't be A HOME GAME!

You will be receiving my BCS treatise in your private mail since this is a golf architecture board.  But I find it ironic that every argument against the BCS I've ever heard gets tripped up because the builder of the case didn't think through what they are saying.

You keep comparing the Bowl Championship Series to a non-existent playoff system.  Why?  

[THuckaby2]

Because I'm never gonna believe that the BCS has it correct - that they get the best two teams to play for a "championship."  You cite two perfect years where that MIGHT have been a case.  Even in those years there would have been doubt....

A playoff removes all doubt, determines a champion.  Obviously the more teams in the playoff the better the determination, but I'm a realist - hell let's start with 4 - the world will love it so much 8 will come soon after, 16 soon after that.

BCS decides it on the field VERY VERY VERY imperfectly.  You don't want to get into a year by year assessment of this - your argument loses big time.

I look forward to your email though... You have a VERY tough case to prove.

And let's not get insulting here - I love college football damn near as much as golf and I have thought this through more than you can possibly know.  The BCS is an improvement on previous polls, I will grant you that.  But in terms of determining a champion, it fails miserably.  It is unconscionable to me that you try and defend it on this.. but then again, I don't think you do... perhaps...

Answer one question:  wouldn't even you prefer a playoff, assuming it can be done?  And "it can't be done" is not a fair answer to this.  Yes or no.

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Geez John C. do you work for the Citrus Bowl or something? You are way to good of a golf man to say a playoff is not the better solution to determine a champion. All sports including college football Div 2 and 3 golf let champions be determined on the field. The fact a bunch of old white men from the bowls and colege athletic dept types and presidents upper management  types will sell their universities down the river so they can travel around and hobnob with each other to avoid change does not make it unreasonable to note the obvious. It is obvious to 90% of the world that a playoff is the superior way to determine a championship. last time I checked the super bowl gets pretty good ratings as well as the playoffs on the way there as do the college hoops 64 teams festival.

[John_Conley]

Hucks:  I just sent it.  Check your private box.  It is L O N G.  Yes, I would prefer a college football playoff.  I think the games would be at least as interesting as the college basketball playoffs.  That sentiment has NOTHING to do with a college football playoff since there HAS NEVER been a playoff in your lifetime and there is no sign of one in the next 5 years.  Like I've said before... an argument against the BCS that "it isn't a playoff" holds no water.   In school, they said "you can't assume away the problem".  I'd say that applies here.

John B.:  I have no ties to Florida Citrus Sports, but work with two guys who do.  They actually are BCS outsiders.  8 teams make the BCS and they aren't one of the 4 bowls.  As a backup, they have Big 10 #2 and SEC #2.

When did I EVER say the BCS was superior to a playoff?  Oh, that's right.  I didn't.  I've never said that.  But I did say that arguing that a playoff is better than the BCS is not true either.  You are just familiar with one and assume it is the best way to crown a champion.

MLB had pennants and the Series, now they have playoffs.  16 of 21 Hockey teams used to make the postseason, rendering the regular season meaningless.  Proof was the year 7 of the 8 higher seeded teams lost in the first round!  TV$ has expanded the NFL playoffs to include SIX wildcards - I thought the wildcard definition was "one that didn't fit"!

Is one better than the other?  (Playoff versus regular standings)  You tell me.  LSU won the conference championship in '01, but would be an underdog to both Tennessee and Florida if they played today.  Many deserving teams see their regular season accomplishments diminished because of one bad day in the playoffs.  I keep coming back to 17-1 Indiana who lost in the NCAAs because Alan Henderson was hurt.

Stop comparing the BCS to a non-existant playoff system and compare it to everything that preceded it and you'll understand.

GO TIGERS.  I'll be thinking about you during the Bowls!

[THuckaby2]

JDB - we have taken this to email, and unless I read JC wrong, what he's really saying is the current BCS is an improvement on the old "tied into specific bowls" system, at least in terms of determining a "champion."  I don't disagree with that, and I doubt you would either.

We seem to have gotten seriously off the track here.  When I say the BCS SUCKS, it's compared to what might be (a real playoff) not what has been (old bowl system).  This year's travesty nothwithstanding, I can't argue with one who would say the BCS is an improvement.  It is.

But it still sucks big time compared to a playoff, which as you note nearly everyone wants.

TH

[THuckaby2]

JC - we seem to be crossing both here and in the instant message system!

No hassles.  I trust your sanity now.  Just realize neither John nor I ever said the BCS was any better or worse than what has come before it.  That was not the question, as much as you want it to be... I believe we will both grant it is an improvement - that's a no brainer.

Why can't we argue for a playoff?  I see no faulty logic there.  No, there never has been one.  Yes, the BCS contract goes for 5 more years.  But they have tweaked the rules of the BCS on an annual basis... It's not much of a stretch at all to see the current BCS formulae just used to determine the final 4... or 8... or 16 teams..., insted of 2... then have them play for the championship, with bowls rotating as quarters/semi/final... where is the illogic in arguing this?

TH

[John_Conley]

Amen, brother.

One thing you need to note is that for most of the country, the hairs being split involve other teams.  This year it was Oregon, Colorado, and Nebraska - for some reason a case for Illinois and Maryland wasn't really made because those people were just so happy not to suck anymore.

Last year the argument involved the two teams in Florida, so I heard all about it.  Miami folks said "head-to-head" was the be all and end all.  Then you pointed out that that logic actually pointed to Washington, who kept quiet because they knew it was an embarrassment for a "National Champion" to get beat by Oregon State.

This year I heard the AD from Oregon say it would be an improvement to have one Championship game after the bowls to settle it all, with the implication that Oregon deserves to be in it after a win versus Colorado (like that will really happen).  THAT GAME ALREADY EXISTS!  And this year it is the Rose Bowl.  I'm sorry they didn't pick his team, but making Miami play over and over again until they lose is something you'd see a group of 8-year-olds come up with on the playground.

How would those two teams be selected?  The same way we select the two that are meeting in the Rose, by an imprecise system that will always leave questions.  This happens in the NFL as well, even with a playoff.  The 15-1 Minnesota Vikings had the best record in the 90s, but were denied a Super Bowl appearance when everything that could possibly go wrong did and they lost in overtime.

Most people would have rather seen Denver-Minnesota than the Dirty Birds, just like most people would like a playoff system today.  Sometimes we don't get what we want.

[John_Conley]

We do keep crossing.

If I had to boil it down...

BCS is fair and the best we've ever had so I can live with it.  When the powers that be move to a playoff I will support it.  I still think it is wrong to blame the BCS, a greatly improved method, for the lack of a playoff - which is what "BCS SUCKS" rhetoric implies to me.

Enjoy the games.  Miami wins over Nebraska.  Colorado BIG over the Ducks.  LSU, Maryland, and Illinois... who cares?  That was the shortcoming of the BCS this year!  Nobody liked the conference winners.  Florida beats whoevet they play (MD) and if Illinois plays LSU I'll take IL in OT.

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