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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« on: November 16, 2011, 09:31:14 PM »
The US Open will return to Winged Foot West in 2020 or 2021

I first heard this in September when the USGA allegedly visited the club, but I decided not to post until a second source developed.  That came this morning, when both the September visit and mutual interest were confirmed.

Having a fair experience of the club in recent years, I personally thought it would be much longer out until WF would put its hat in the ring.  The loss of the East course for 15 months of prep and breakdown and the hyper conditions of an Open-doctored West were not popular in 2005-2010.

Tryign to think ahead  to what championship golf will look like in a decade and what distances the elites will hit it, I can't imagine how WF and  the USGA could squeeze more than 150-200 yards more out of the old girl.

Perhaps

#2 could find additional yardage beyond the 471 tips to play in the 480s (+15)
#3 will have to play at closer to 240 each day than the 220 it averaged in 06 (can play 278 tip to back-most pin) (+20)
#6 can remain a drivable 4, but with anew tee pushing it to 340ish as opposed to <315. (+25)
#9 could find additional room to possibly get it near 540 (will it be the longest Open 4 at that date?) (+30)
#10 - though it might be anathema to mess with a classic hole of 190, there is ideal teeing space available to make it play almost 220 (+25)
#13 - has a chance for perhaps 7 more yards (+5)
#14 - though this hole is already beastly from the 458 tips, it could be made moreso by some 20 yards in the back scrubland (+15)
#17 - has achance for perhaps 7-10 more yards. (+10)
#18 - probably lengthened for the 4th time another 5-10 (+5)

that's +150 aggregate and I'm straining to get there....will 7450 be enough in 10 years

A ways off but fun to think about anyway

PS: Tiger Woods, if he's playing Golf then anyway, will be 44-45 years old

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2011, 09:44:40 PM »
VK,

Remember, +5 or +6 won the event...

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 09:53:26 PM »
VK-I don`t like the idea of lengthening #6. It`s a fun hole at 321 and I don`t see what taking it to 340 does other than adding yardage on the card. What`s your take?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 09:55:19 PM »
I love the venue but cringe at what happens to the East Course during the tournament.

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 10:20:54 PM »
a return to WF would be great for golf and for the US Open.  hope it happens.  and i got $5 right now that the winning score is above par.

Par is just a number, but that course will be plenty long in 2020.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 10:32:53 PM »
Tim,

Oh I don't like  it either, I'm just thinking about what  will constitute a drivable par 4 in 9-10 years and thinking about where there is possibly space to meet what will be "needed."  On the other hand, I never get bent out of shape about a tee lengthening (provided  it doesn't obliterate the designers tee or re-route the hole), as nobody plays from there anyhow and for my own golf, Winged Foot is perfect for a up-to 6400 or so White tee.

Yes, the East course just gets chopped up, no two ways about it.

Jim,

I acknowledge as well as anyone that Winged foot is no pushover, however I'm not going to be too crazy about the numbers when the artifical par of 70 (280) is imposed to calculate them.  I do think however that just as Golf changed enormously from 1991-2006, so will it change enormously from 2006-2021.  Plus, they made the last extreme lengthening leading up to 06 and nearly pushed the course as near to the property lines as possible.  Will 150 yards be enough added distance in 2020-21?...I don't know but those spots are the only possible places, I could think to find it. 

I mean, in one gold standard example, Mcilroy's driving at Congressional was insane in terms of length and accuracy. Every  drive was 315-335 and  cut the center and a special week made mince meat of a thing  that can tire a Golfer watching at home. What will be the "standards" in 2020-21.  Again, Idon't know but  if Golf continues to evolve as it has  with the speed it has, 7450 may not be enough.

cheers

vk

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 10:34:45 PM »
A very wise man asked me recently what is in it for the golf course for Winged Foot to hold another US open?
His response, was ... nothing, it is for the membership.
The golf course doesn't need another US Open.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 10:46:04 PM »
Mike-the membership doesnt need it either...and a lot of them will vote no. 

WE (the golf-playing public) need it.  I know i want to see the best there again. 

And a lot of the members seem to think sharing the course in this way is important to do.  I hope they keep thinking this way...   

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 11:01:49 PM »

A very wise man asked me recently what is in it for the golf course for Winged Foot to hold another US open?
His response, was ... nothing, it is for the membership.
The golf course doesn't need another US Open.

$

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 11:12:30 PM »
Thanks Scott
Sharing is one thing, the cost is what we were discussing.
The USGA has too much power.
Occupy Far Hills is next.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 11:38:47 PM »
Mike,

Respectfully, I find flaws in that manner of thinking:

1.  Golfing and even non-Golfing followers of the game, not just the ones  crazy enough to be on this board, derive something from major tournaments returning to long-visited sites. The history of elite championship play is nearly as much the history of the sites where the deeds were performed as it is about the deeds  themselves.  Every sport is like this...Wembley, Lord's Cricket Ground, Yankee Stdium, Fenway Park, Lambeau Field, the LA Coliseum, the Rose Bowl, the Boston Garden.  Even something smaller and under the radar..like the old Tiger (Briggs) Stadium in Detroit, which I remember not only being quite cool when I saw it, but immediately my eyes went up to the massive light towers on top of the right field roof...where Reggie Jackson hit a titanic homerun in 1971 for the AL as a member of the A's.  In the same way, I appreciate when you see the Ouimet plaque on 17 in Brookline and Sarzen's at 15 ANGC...this is one of the essence of observing and loving the game...not to mention to keep the architecture in the golf world's eye.  Almost every time around is played on WFW and a guest comes to the Par 3 third, invariably someone in the know will relate the story of Casper's lay-up in all four rounds en route to his 59 Open win.  And  while we're  only 5 years out, won't Mickelson and WF be one of the most celebrated heavyweight fights between a course and a golfer ever recorded.

2.  I don't think Winged Foot W has been destroyed or compromised by having 8 significant championships contested over it's 90 years. At the same time, I acknowledge that it has nothing left to prove as a test of US Open or PGA conditions.  And as I said in an earlier post, if lengthening is the derided alteration, it's not relevant to me because no one plays there except for seven days every 15-20 years.  therough goes away and farther out, the green speeds modify.

3.  I don't deny that the membership derives enormous benefits of prestige and resultant economy because of its hosting, but they've been pretty good stewards of the course for near on a century and the thing plays and looks better now than in 1984 or 1997, so I think it's a fair exchange.  To my mind, the conditions for all WF golfers and the preservation of the  essential Tillinghast design are at a zenith in the wake  of the last 10 years, since the Elm disease and resultant tree program, and of course the Open.

I'm sorry if  I missed the point  of what you and/or the wise man was  trying to say.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 10:13:47 AM »
Mike-i disagree.  if lost fees from outings and guests, F and B, and unreimbursed expenses are accurately accounted for, the open is at best a marginal event in the club's numbers.  Five new members would bring in the same money.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2011, 10:18:16 AM »
didnt they cement over part of the East course last time?  i found that hard to believe that the membership was ok with that
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long ways off, but rumor has it...
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 10:28:58 AM »


I acknowledge as well as anyone that Winged foot is no pushover, however I'm not going to be too crazy about the numbers when the artifical par of 70 (280) is imposed to calculate them.  I do think however that just as Golf changed enormously from 1991-2006, so will it change enormously from 2006-2021.  Plus, they made the last extreme lengthening leading up to 06 and nearly pushed the course as near to the property lines as possible.  Will 150 yards be enough added distance in 2020-21?...I don't know but those spots are the only possible places, I could think to find it. 






VK,the day that WFW,as currently constituted, becomes anything like a pushover is the day we can all quit.

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