News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #250 on: November 18, 2011, 01:02:39 PM »
Speaking existentially about golf; there's nothing pragmatic about it.  Why must the existence of Ballyneal (or any other golf club for that matter) be questioned in regards to feasibility?  It's about joy, fun, peace with a bigger force, art.  There's nothing pragmatic about any of those things. 

As a disclaimer, there CAN be pragmatism in how you manage golf. 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #251 on: November 18, 2011, 01:10:29 PM »
Speaking existentially about golf; there's nothing pragmatic about it.  Why must the existence of Ballyneal (or any other golf club for that matter) be questioned in regards to feasibility?  It's about joy, fun, peace with a bigger force, art.  There's nothing pragmatic about any of those things. 

As a disclaimer, there CAN be pragmatism in how you manage golf. 

And that's what Don does well, reconciling the two.

Golf is not unique, btw - I'd argue that outside of food, shelter and clothing (especially t shirts!), many industries are not necessarily pragmatic and most are built on dreams. The beauty of the capitalist system is that we are all free to choose our indulgences - and we are all better for it. Sorry about the digression and propaganda...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #252 on: November 18, 2011, 01:19:04 PM »
This is all a bit silly.  If you distill the dollars and cents guys, we'd all just find the cheapest course with bargain basement annual dues and play there daily year round, sort of the antithesis of what much of this site is about.  If you place a premium on top notch golf without breaking the bank, there probably hasn't been a better time to look at one of these clubs since the great depression.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 09:18:36 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #253 on: November 18, 2011, 01:23:08 PM »
I think there is always a level of "feasibility" that should always be included in any discussion when it comes to when and where to build a golf course.  You can build the most awesome course in the world on a teeny sand based island in the middle of the pacific somewhere...but if just getting to it cost thousands of dollars and 20 hours of travel, then that should be given its due weight.

Paul OConnor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #254 on: November 18, 2011, 01:41:15 PM »
"As Tom says, sooner or later the creditors have to realise that their money is gone..."

Only the unsecured creditors,  and the members, their money is gone. 

The real creditors, well, I guess they now own a golf course. 


Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #255 on: November 18, 2011, 01:48:56 PM »
My guess is that the Ballyneal debt situation is a bit more complicated than simply buying out a bank note (at whatever price) and formulating a new membership structure.  Obviously, those in the know do not want to discuss it here.  Hopefully whatever intricacies that exist in getting this settled will work themselves out and the club will end up in the right hands.

Until then, it makes little sense for anyone with no knowledge of exactly what the creditors and membership are dealing with to speculate on solutions.  I'd suggest we wait for the good news to filter out when the time is right.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Paul OConnor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #256 on: November 18, 2011, 01:55:54 PM »
Ballyneal Financing LLC

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #257 on: November 18, 2011, 02:12:43 PM »
Often times these places are created purely by the will of the person who wants to achieve something beyond dollars and cents and has the money to make it happen.  Saratoga National in my area was created in this manner.  I am not sure how it does financially but it's hard to imagine much of a return on capital but it very well may be operationally positive.  The founder wanted to do it,  spent what it took to meet his standards.  Could he have spent less, sure but that wasn't the point.  He could afford to follow a dream and did.

Perhaps there is another motivated person out there who just want to own something spectacular and has the means to make it happen.  If it can be operationally profitable without debt that is a huge help.

Dan
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 05:26:35 PM by Dan Byrnes »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #258 on: November 18, 2011, 03:54:04 PM »
Jimmy Chandler,

Quote
So if I don't have enough wealth/income to join Ballyneal or other private clubs, I am part of the problem? This is one of the more ridiculous statements I have ever seen on this discussion forum ... I do take exception to your statement that I am somehow part of the problem because I am a public golfer.

You misunderstand my point, and perhaps I didn't make it as well as I could have.

I understand that there are people in golf who cannot join a club and support the game by paying green fees at public courses. This is effectively the same thing as joining a club in that they are supporting a golf course operator (or operators) and helps to keep those facilities open the same way joining a club helps to keep it open.

Completely different to that are the folks who elect not to join a club despite having the means and play predominantly as a guest at private clubs or as a rater. And truth be told I am an "to each their own" type of guy and don't really question their choice to do that until those same people lament the state of golf or make posts like those I referenced previously.

Public courses cannot survive without greenfee-paying customers. Clubs cannot survive without members. I'm not sure anyone who makes a choice to remove themselves from those two categories is in much of a position to lament the closure of a golfing facility.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 03:55:45 PM by Scott Warren »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #259 on: November 18, 2011, 04:40:48 PM »
Just ran across a quotation from John Maynard Keynes that I'm pretty sure is a propos to this thread:

"If the animal spirits are dimmed and the spontaneous optimism falters, leaving us to depend on nothing but a mathematical expectation, enterprise will fade and die -- though fears of loss may have a basis no more reasonable than hopes of profit had before."

Here's the line in the (recommended) context where I read it -- in John Cassidy's "The Demand Doctor" (The New Yorker, 10/10/2011):

"In particular, Keynes understood how a financially driven economy, like ours, can go into self-sustaining downward spirals (and upward spirals) under the influence of crowd psychology and chronic uncertainty about the future. In the classical scheme of things, banks and financial markets are treated as abstractions, which effortlessly convert savings (money) into investment (forms of capital like factories or computers). Keynes pointed out that the link between savings and investment was far from straightforward. It relied on people who are looking to make quick profits, and who are susceptible to shortsightedness, herd behavior, and panic. 'Speculators may do no harm as bubbles on a steady stream of enterprise,' he commented. 'But the position is serious when enterprise becomes a bubble on the whirlpool of speculation. When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done.'

"The problem isn’t that Wall Street traders are reckless or stupid; Keynes had a wary respect for their smarts. The problem is that our investment choices can never be truly rationalized. 'If we speak frankly,' Keynes wrote, 'we have to admit that our basis of knowledge for estimating the yield ten years hence of a railway, a copper mine, a textile factory, the goodwill of a patent medicine, an Atlantic liner, a building in the City of London amounts to little and sometimes to nothing.' Keynes distinguished this sort of incalculable uncertainty from quantifiable risk—the risk, say, that your straight flush will be trumped by four of a kind, or that you will be killed at Russian roulette. When you decide to build a factory or take a flyer on the stock market, the arithmetic of probability and rational decision theory provide no real guidance. Such decisions can be taken, Keynes wrote, only as a result of 'animal spirits—of spontaneous urge to action rather than inaction, and not as the outcome of a weighted average of quantitative benefits multiplied by quantitative probabilities.'

"In a boom, when animal spirits are high, businesses and entrepreneurs are brimming with investment projects, which banks and other financial institutions are all too eager to finance. After a bust, the opposite applies. In Keynes’s words, 'If the animal spirits are dimmed and the spontaneous optimism falters, leaving us to depend on nothing but a mathematical expectation, enterprise will fade and die—though fears of loss may have a basis no more reasonable than hopes of profit had before.' Five years ago, banks were extending mortgages to anybody who walked in the door; today, many good borrowers can’t get credit. Corporate America, after jettisoning workers by the millions to preserve profits, is sitting on billions of dollars of cash. American households, known everywhere for their prodigal ways, have discovered the virtues of saving and thrift."

Read more at http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/10/111010fa_fact_cassidy#ixzz1e5yTpc50
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #260 on: November 18, 2011, 05:13:10 PM »
Thanks, Dan for the brief respite from the revolving arguments by the uninformed yet certain. There are very few people hereabouts that have the education or experience to come to the judgments herein rendered. The rest has been nothing more than internet chat room drivel.

I'm guessing Colton wishes he hadn't posted this item on his blog.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #261 on: November 18, 2011, 06:22:12 PM »
...nothing more than internet chat room drivel.


So true...nothing like your stirring input on the finer points of the hobbyist influence on modern architecture. That was pure gold! ;)

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #262 on: November 19, 2011, 04:09:57 AM »
Jimmy Chandler,

You misunderstand my point, and perhaps I didn't make it as well as I could have.

Ah, I understand now, and I apologize for any intemperate remarks on my behalf.

Trust me, if I could afford to join a club like Ballyneal I would in a heartbeat. Let's hope you and I get to play there together one day.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #263 on: November 19, 2011, 05:51:23 AM »
No dramas mate, I could have expressed myself more thoroughly in the first instance and I know the cost of private golf in the US can be prohibitive.

Ballyneal is definitely on "the list". One day...

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #264 on: November 19, 2011, 01:58:34 PM »
Lou, to be completely frank, I find you questioning me about my involvement at Dismal River out of line,  as is your comment about my partner and a $50 million dollar house. I'm the same guy I've always been and I'm not sure where you’re going with that sort of dialog.

Last week I called Patrick Mucci a master of the obvious and he called me testy. Can we all agree that developing a golf course in a remote area may be a challenging business model? I don't think I've ever read so many smart guys find so many different ways to try and justify that it’s a tough deal. Quite sure that all involved deduced it was a tough deal long before the first shovel went into the ground.

It is my belief, and always had been, that just because there is no guarantee, and even though the finance types in the world may say you’re nuts, some ideas are still worth chasing.

Don,

I am really sorry that you feel I was out of line.  I must be a really, really poor writer because nothing that I tried to communicate regarding you, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Al, or anyone else was intended to be in a negative light.  Not long ago, I asked a local GCAer to hit me over the head with a 2 by 4 everytime he saw me posting on this site.  Your reply had the same effect.

Please cite where I have questioned your involvement at DR.  The reference to your partner was in response to Tom Doak and it was highly positive- i.e. that I thought people should do whatever they want with their own money and that they might be one good source for new development of courses we like on this site.

Ditto for the $50 Million house.  It was a reference in my reply to Tom to recent articles on a guy who was being criticized for building a 90,000 sf house and how he and others defended their right to do what they pleased with their own money.  There was even a follow-up letter to the editor from a home builder noting how many jobs this guy created by having his home built.  You of all people should know how strongly I feel about people doing what they please with their own money.  It is those who seek to appropriate other people's money through government and the law for their own purposes who earn my ire.
 
Very disappointing, really.


George,

From what did you infer that I am forgetting that people are complex and multi-faceted?  Life is much about reconciling conflicting feelings, thoughts, demands, etc.  Being practical- a compliment I was trying to pay to Don, apparently very poorly in its articulation- is precisely about reaching that balance.

As to smart people, if "they" (the self-proclaimed) were right, there would be no such thing as a Bell Curve.  Most people tend to think very highly of themselves and others who parrot their views, and correspondingly less of everyone else (the 4th Estate and the Academy is full of them).

The bottom line is that one doesn't have to be an Einstein to do well in most facets of life.  By the same token, those with very high IQs aren't guaranteed to set the world on fire either.  As you might guess, I much prefer being among the doers vs. the talkers; the makers vs. the takers.  And I have never claimed to be very smart.  Afterall, I went to the largest public university (at that time) in the U.S., far better known for its football program and fine golf course than famous alumni populating Washington and other centers that draw the "really smart" people.

Dan Kelly,

What would Keynes have to say about "animal spirits" in the public sector?  Any evidence that our "servants" can ascertain the future any better?  With government spending around 40% of GDP vs. 8% a century ago, shouldn't we have mastered those irrational overreactions by now?

For another more entertaining perspective:

http://econstories.tv/2010/06/22/fear-the-boom-and-bust/    
 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 04:21:52 PM by Lou_Duran »

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #265 on: January 12, 2012, 09:06:01 AM »
Article in the Holyoke paper with sparse details on the Ballyneal foreclosure. Auction date is March 7.

"Following input from members and the development of a new business plan, Ballyneal intends to re-emerge as a member-oriented club that continues to provide its members quality facilities and a wonderful golf experience,” said GM Matt Payne.

http://www.holyokeenterprise.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4679:ballyneal-foreclosure-procedure-initiated-rebuilding-anticipated&catid=35:agbusiness&Itemid=54

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #266 on: January 12, 2012, 09:57:14 AM »
I'm thinking about bidding. [Blatant membership selling alert] Who wants to join Ballyneal 2.0?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #267 on: January 12, 2012, 11:04:09 AM »
Good luck, Jim.  I hope you get it!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #268 on: January 12, 2012, 11:07:36 AM »
Jim,
I have been watching a lot of auctions shows lately. I think the key is to show up in a really flashy car, hoping to scare people off, and then when you bid, do it very loudly and obnoxiously. I believe this method will help in letting other potential buyers know you are interested. Either that, or the guys on TV are total dicks!

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #269 on: January 12, 2012, 11:43:03 AM »
I'm thinking about bidding. [Blatant membership selling alert] Who wants to join Ballyneal 2.0?

Terms???
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #270 on: January 12, 2012, 11:46:52 AM »
I'd love to be in on this....I'm guessing there'll be more than 1 bidder showing up for this one...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #271 on: January 12, 2012, 11:58:09 AM »
I'd love to be in on this....I'm guessing there'll be more than 1 bidder showing up for this one...

Jud:

Really? It's one thing if a buyer has incredibly deep pockets and doesn't care if the club runs a profit, but I would love to hear people's thoughts as to why they would actually want to lever up and purchase Ballyneal. No doubt it's a great place, but it would have to be an extremely risky business decision.
H.P.S.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #272 on: January 12, 2012, 12:00:35 PM »
I suppose alot depends on what the reserve price is, in terms of how many are going to show up and whether it could potentially be a profitable endevaour at some point in time.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #273 on: January 12, 2012, 12:03:34 PM »
I'm only talking about buying it at or below today's fair market price, not eating an above market portion of the note.  Without a huge debt there's no reason the club, run properly, shouldn't be successful IMO.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 12:37:33 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #274 on: January 12, 2012, 12:17:02 PM »
Isn't it the third owner that reaps the success?
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke