Ballyneal in foreclosure

[JC Jones]

Between this and the Olympics news, this has got to be the biggest news day in the past few years of GCA...

Jud,

I highly doubt it. 

Speaking of all of this information going around, I wish someone would show the place some respect and not talk about all the financials here on the internet. 

JC-

If you're going to try to turn the tables, at least get the original statement correct.  I haven't seen anything resembling speculation or inaccuracy in what has been discussed today.

Sven

Sven,

If you're going to call me out, at least get the original statement correct.  Ben Sims's admonishment on the first page had nothing to do with speculation.

His may not of, but mine did.

I don't know what yours said, I'm referring to the initial admonishment by Ben that we shouldn't talk about the place because it might hurt people's feelings.  There was no qualification when there should have been.  I agree with you on speculation, but don't agree with Ben on a general gag order.

[Brad Isaacs]

I assume this is good news for the staff at Ballyneal. I've only been there once but the place was in great condition and I would think it wise to keep the green's staff in place.

Wonder what this means for the 2nd course?

What second course?............No money .  

Chef works inTenn at CC of Tenn, I believe. Some others were let go. Matt Payne GM and Dave Hensley (greens super) are still there. Gina and JP, I believe are still there. Nic Flan, (awesome guy) will take over as caddy master it is rumored.

[Jim Colton]

Aside from the sordid financial details, the real news is that the guys like Jim who truly love the place will be able to tee it up again come summer.  That, JC, is the headline to me.

I hear it was mid 70s there today. I knew I should've gone to the auction. Could've gotten one more round in as a member of Ballyneal LLC to lower that ultimate cost per round from astronomical to just plain absurd.

[Jud_T]

Aside from the sordid financial details, the real news is that the guys like Jim who truly love the place will be able to tee it up again come summer.  That, JC, is the headline to me.

Jud,

This is a headline: http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7657131/michigan-wolverines-players-tweets-violated-ncaa-rule

 

Right now all I care about is the prices in my NCAA draft next Monday...And you're on like Donkey Kong for Grudge Match II; this time I may have to give you strokes...

[JC Jones]

Aside from the sordid financial details, the real news is that the guys like Jim who truly love the place will be able to tee it up again come summer.  That, JC, is the headline to me.

Jud,

This is a headline: http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7657131/michigan-wolverines-players-tweets-violated-ncaa-rule

 

Right now all I care about is the prices in my NCAA draft next Monday...And you're on like Donkey Kong for Grudge Match II; this time I may have to give you strokes...

After the brackets come out there will be a wager on which team goes deeper in the tourney.

[Tom_Doak]

It remains to be seen if this is great news or not.

As Brad Isaacs says, the bankruptcy has wiped out the unsecured creditors -- in layman's terms, the group of very supportive members who put in money over the past 5 years to keep the place afloat.  Many of them feel that they've been taken advantage of, and have vowed not to return.  That's not a great start for Ballyneal 2.0.

[Dan Herrmann]

Damn, I hate sad stories.  But often what seems to be the absolutely worst event in one's life turns out to be a blessing in the long term.

[Brad Isaacs]

What Tom said.........

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Brad How do they still own the land? Unless it was on a long term lease to the entity that owned the course. I mean who would loan money to a golf course that does not own the dirt or have the same effect by the length of the lease. Of course by that I mean a large amount of money to fund construction etc. I am not talking about the members who helped by loaning money to keep things moving along with hopes things would get better.

[JR Potts]

I have no inside knowledge about Ballyneal or any course outside of mine for that matter, but if one is expecting some type of  return out of a golf membership, they are barking up the wrong tree. Jim flippantly discusses his round cost averaging....and I don't care where you are, it doesn't make financial sense.  Not even close.

Like restaurants, I wouldn't put one penny into a golf course membership that I ever hoped to see again.  That said, I will put many more dollars into golf course memberships in my future.  It's just a loss that I don't mind taking.  But it aint no investment...at any membership level.

[Brad Isaacs]

Tiger.....I don' t know if I quite understand what you are making exact reference too? Help. Give me a ring....

Brad

[Mike Sweeney]

Like restaurants, I wouldn't put one penny into a golf course membership that I ever hoped to see again.  That said, I will put many more dollars into golf course memberships in my future.  It's just a loss that I don't mind taking.  But it aint no investment...at any membership level.

Where the hell were you 5 years ago before I wrote that check? 

PS. Not to Ballyneal....

[Doug Sobieski]

...

[Matt Vandelac]

Seems to me somebody might be in the owners ear with some very poor advice.  How can he turn his back on the members?  How can he expect to drum up more members at a national club in these economic and now golf saturated times?  Just in that area alone the new Dismal and the Prairie Club were going to take a bite.
I also agree that for the owner to buy his note and take creditors out and sell it would be one thing -  him running it after wiping out the debt smells really bad to me, too.  Maybe karma says there's another owner in a season or two. 

[Tom_Doak]

The last thing I'm trying to do is to stir up trouble here.  I think I want to see the golf club succeed as much as anyone does.  It's one of my best courses and I want to see it thrive.  And, no one appreciates the job Dave Hensley has done there more than I do.  But much of the info posted here and elsewhere has been incomplete [at best], and now that my duty to my former client has passed through the bankruptcy, I wanted to make sure what's being said is on the level.

Mr. Curlander has some major issues to address.  I'd be happy to help him, if I can, but my sense is that many of the former members are not going to support his efforts ... and as Matt says, it will be hard to replace them in the present economic environment.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have a story which is a poor analogy for this. LSU went through a period in the 1990's where we hired a few really unqualified coaches in a row. I was having dinner with our athletic director. He was complaining about the $50,000 to $100,000 a game he was losing in concession sales. I laughed and told him he was forgetting about his customer and they are not his to abuse for life with a bad product.  I said you are taking for granted that having 100% season tickets sales is not common in college sports. It took years to build up that up and make 100% sell outs a part of our lives. I laughed and told him there are many great things to do in September October and November other than watch a suck program and bitch about it with friends. I mentioned a few options which costs less and are great fun. I think when a business has a bad business plan in the case at hand, they need to fix it. I do not see how making any significant percentage of the membership mad or feel slighted or worse help a club that needs increased cash flow bad. I hope this is not the case, but if it is, these members may well find there are plenty or great places to spend their time in the summer months playing great golf at a place they feel loved and is not filled with bad memories. Again I hope this is not the case and the members are happy going forward. The club needs all of them and more, not less.

[Sam Morrow]

I have a story which is a poor analogy for this. LSU went through a period in the 1990's where we hired a few really unqualified coaches in a row. I was having dinner with our athletic director. He was complaining about the $50,000 to $100,000 a game he was losing in concession sales. I laughed and told him he was forgetting about his customer and they are not his to abuse for life with a bad product.  I said you are taking for granted that having 100% season tickets sales is not common in college sports. It took years to build up that up and make 100% sell outs a part of our lives. I laughed and told him there are many great things to do in September October and November other than watch a suck program and bitch about it with friends. I mentioned a few options which costs less and are great fun. I think when a business has a bad business plan in the case at hand, they need to fix it. I do not see how making any significant percentage of the membership mad or feel slighted or worse help a club that needs increased cash flow bad. I hope this is not the case, but if it is, these members may well find there are plenty or great places to spend their time in the summer months playing great golf at a place they feel loved and is not filled with bad memories. Again I hope this is not the case and the members are happy going forward. The club needs all of them and more, not less.

You people will never get over Curley and Gerry.

[Ben Sims]

Ballyneal is an amazing golf course.  It needs love and care right now.  And people with some money that love golf.   

Are there folks that got screwed in this deal?  No doubt.  And it is a very bad thing that people lost money because of golf.  But the future of a great golf course and great guys like Dave Hensley and Matt Payne hang on positive thinking, entrepreneurial thought, and people that care about something special.   And that is as far as this conversation needs to go. 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sam The one is Curley Hallman. I will never ever get over hiring that aggie. I will tell you a story next time we play. When he was the coach at LSU, my secretary had been the Adm Ass to the Pres of Southern Miss when he was there. They were trying to get rid of him and we took him off their hands. Brett Favre made him look like he could coach. The stories are the BS he pulled while at Southern Miss and LSU.

[Steve Salmen]

You still may need a place to sleep and eat.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam The one is Curley Hallman. I will never ever get over hiring that aggie. I will tell you a story next time we play. When he was the coach at LSU, my secretary had been the Adm Ass to the Pres of Southern Miss when he was there. They were trying to get rid of him and we took him off their hands. Brett Favre made him look like he could coach. The stories are the BS he pulled while at Southern Miss and LSU.

This could be a great thread on tigerdroppings.

[Mike Benham]

It remains to be seen if this is great news or not.

I'm confused a bit, the secured note holder has eliminated the debt that was on the club.  He has now, in theory, made it much more economical to run (i.e. no principle and/or interest payments to make out of the cash flow).

The previous equity partners were NOT going to get their money back, that point is proven by the fact that there was no one else on the court house steps to bid on the foreclosure.  (Let's not forget that there is always a level of risk in any investment, many people like to blame someone else when an investment goes bad but somewhere down the road, one of the assumptions in the financial model failed, and when that happens, it usually does not turn out well).

Therefore, the stated desire of Mr. Curlander, to open the club, etc. is a positive sign.  Whether it turns out positive or not depends on the revenue model he designs and the number of golfers he attracts to the club.


On the other hand, the news could have been a lot worse, a rancher could have won the foreclosure bid and 500 head of cattle could be roaming the fairways come summer.

[Brad Isaacs]

No question about it, Dave Hensley has done amazing things for that Golf course out in the Chop Hills.

[Sean_A]

It remains to be seen if this is great news or not.

I'm confused a bit, the secured note holder has eliminated the debt that was on the club.  He has now, in theory, made it much more economical to run (i.e. no principle and/or interest payments to make out of the cash flow).

The previous equity partners were NOT going to get their money back, that point is proven by the fact that there was no one else on the court house steps to bid on the foreclosure.  (Let's not forget that there is always a level of risk in any investment, many people like to blame someone else when an investment goes bad but somewhere down the road, one of the assumptions in the financial model failed, and when that happens, it usually does not turn out well).

Therefore, the stated desire of Mr. Curlander, to open the club, etc. is a positive sign.  Whether it turns out positive or not depends on the revenue model he designs and the number of golfers he attracts to the club.


On the other hand, the news could have been a lot worse, a rancher could have won the foreclosure bid and 500 head of cattle could be roaming the fairways come summer.

Mike

This is my take.  Well said.  If folks haven't realized it by now, building courses in the sticks is a high risk proposition no matter how good the product is.  That said, it surprises me a bit that members would not choose to wait and see what comes out of the wash.  Presumably the new owner knows his position as well as anybody and will be looking for ways to retain members. 

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

This is my take.  Well said.  If folks haven't realized it by now, building courses in the sticks is a high risk proposition no matter how good the product is.  That said, it surprises me a bit that members would not choose to wait and see what comes out of the wash.  Presumably the new owner knows his position as well as anybody and will be looking for ways to retain members.  

Ciao

Sean,

I went through this once at Long Island National roughly 10 years ago when it tried to go private. They tried to jam through a membership without talking to their existing "founding players". We bought the right as a group to weekend tee times before the course even opened and we considered the place our "home club". The management group then forced a silly membership on the "founding players" without talking to us and it never took. Public course still today at way cheaper rates than what we paid ten years ago.

He had 3 months to speak to the membership at Ballyneal and clearly no rancher was going to pay up for land, so he was the only possible bidder in this family feud that the members got stuck in between. Not one member in support here so far and none at the courthouse from what we can see. Doak is obviously on the outside too, and while he has not stated or complained about it, I will assume he just got wiped out as a creditor.

Sorry, this has all the signs of a family feud gone bad and they forgot the members and the architect. I have never been there, and I am just stating what seems obvious to me.