[Mike Hendren]

Earlier this year I was totally blown away by a golf course where few if any greens are prudently approachable with the ground game.  Most approaches are uphill and even when not the greens are pushed up and the type of fairway grass utized checks low-running shots which inevitably reverse course and trundle back toward the frustrated and disappointed golfer.

I haven't posted before since I don't want to identify the course and haven't even mentioned that I've played it.  Suffice it to say that while my answer would have been "yes" to this question before, this course single-handedly changed my opinion. 

What do you think?

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

NO

Pine Tree is primarily an aerial course with very little available in the way of ground game approaches

[Jud_T]

I'd say for anyone over a 10 handicap, i.e. the vast majority of golfers, that the answer is yes.  "Ben Hogan thought this was one of the best courses he'd ever played, but Ben Hogan was a lot better at carrying a high 2-iron shot over a sprawling bunker to an elevated green than mortals like me, and Pine Tree calls for that shot about a half dozen times in 18 holes if you want to break 80.  Maybe in plan view the holes are more varied, but it all looks too much alike from the landing areas."- Confidential Guide.  Just saying...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

No is right for the way the game is played in the USA, but at the Home of Golf the answer is YES and again YES.

Take a good links, not many links courses I believe in the USA, But they are the birth place of our golf some 600 years ago. The wind and weather conditions plus the ball/clubs debate over the last 100 years still proves that the wind defeats all aerial shots, just look back to the last few Opens with Norman & Watson game outperforming the younger players because they understood the non-aerial game.

The answer to the question is from this side of the pond one hell of a big YES

Melvyn

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

I think there is room for a few great courses which consistently demand the aerial approach.  See Tom Paul's "Big World" theory.

But, I don't think it's a good model for golf in general ... and certainly not on a windy site.

[PCCraig]

Essential? No. Welcome? Sure.

[Joe Leenheer]

For some of my students the ground game is essential as they fail to get the ball airborne...

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'd say for anyone over a 10 handicap, i.e. the vast majority of golfers, that the answer is yes.  "Ben Hogan thought this was one of the best courses he'd ever played, but Ben Hogan was a lot better at carrying a high 2-iron shot over a sprawling bunker to an elevated green than mortals like me, and Pine Tree calls for that shot about a half dozen times in 18 holes if you want to break 80.  Maybe in plan view the holes are more varied, but it all looks too much alike from the landing areas."- Confidential Guide.  Just saying...

Jud,

10 handicaps and higher aren't hitting greens in regulation as the norm.

Why do so many equate the high handicappers game with the PGA Tour game when discussing architecture.

Coincidently, I had lunch yesterday with a 12-14 handicap golfer who was raving about Pine Tree and how much he enjoys playing the golf course.  So much so that he expressed a desire to join, even though he belongs to another golf course not that far away for him.

When you view the handicap printout for the members at Pine Tree, you'll find an abundance of 10, 15, and 20 handicappers, along with an extensive list of women golfers

I think that's a mark of a great course, it presents an enjoyable challenge to every level of golfer

[Jud_T]

Pat,

Nothing personal against Pine Tree.  I haven't played the course.  I do have a buddy who plays off 1 who's a member and loves it.  Of course this is the same guy who turned down memberships at Shoreacres and Old Elm because it took the driver out of his hands too often. 

[Sean_A]

I think greatness is harder to achieve with the principle route being aerial, as much because it is much more likely that the turf will be less than ideal, but I certainly think it is not only possible, but desirable.  At about 50-50 and with grass that encourages aerial golf, I would could consider Merion essentially an aerial course and I think it is probably the best course I have ever seen.  Old Town too is another example, not as good as Merion, but still great.  The best aerial course I know of in England is Cavendish, its very good, but well below that of the above two.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Nothing personal against Pine Tree.  I haven't played the course.  I do have a buddy who plays off 1 who's a member and loves it.  Of course this is the same guy who turned down memberships at Shoreacres and Old Elm because it took the driver out of his hands too often. 

Jud,

Other than a few courses, such as NGLA and GCGC, I don't see the ground game as a prefered alternative to the aerial game.

The ground game requires firmer turf.
In the Spring in the Northeast, that's almost an impossible condition to find.
Ditto in South Florida and other regions when the rainy season approaches.

Could you tell me, in the U.S. those courses where the ground game is the primary path to the greens ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

No is right for the way the game is played in the USA, but at the Home of Golf the answer is YES and again YES.

Take a good links, not many links courses I believe in the USA, But they are the birth place of our golf some 600 years ago. The wind and weather conditions plus the ball/clubs debate over the last 100 years still proves that the wind defeats all aerial shots, just look back to the last few Opens with Norman & Watson game outperforming the younger players because they understood the non-aerial game.

The answer to the question is from this side of the pond one hell of a big YES

Melvyn,

You can't "direct" the golfer to play a "ground" game when the turf/soils don't permit it.

Links courses are inherently on sandy soil, soil that drains well and on land that's swept by wind, drying out the courses.

Go inland and tell me that the ground game is a requirement for excellence, based on those turf/soil conditions.

When you say, "from this side of the pond" are you including France, Spain, Norway, Germany, Italy, etc., etc., or limiting the reference to the UK

Melvyn

[Jud_T]

Pat,

Nothing personal against Pine Tree.  I haven't played the course.  I do have a buddy who plays off 1 who's a member and loves it.  Of course this is the same guy who turned down memberships at Shoreacres and Old Elm because it took the driver out of his hands too often.  

Jud,

Other than a few courses, such as NGLA and GCGC, I don't see the ground game as a prefered alternative to the aerial game.

The ground game requires firmer turf.
In the Spring in the Northeast, that's almost an impossible condition to find.
Ditto in South Florida and other regions when the rainy season approaches.

Could you tell me, in the U.S. those courses where the ground game is the primary path to the greens ?

Well, for starters, my club, Kingsley.  As well as most of my other favorites in the States, the Bandon courses, Ballyneal etc...  Your point about firm conditions is well taken, but although it may not be optimal to use the ground approach in softer conditions, it's a pretty useful option to have for many players.

[JNC Lyon]

Yes, it is essential.  The ground game provides variety that the aerial game never can.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes, it is essential.  The ground game provides variety that the aerial game never can.

It also provides "unpredictability" which most, if not all, golfers DON'T want.

And, it's not essential.

Jud,

I've played the courses at Bandon and the ground game is NOT the primary path to the greens, it's the aerial game, unless, you're unable to get the ball airborne.

[Jud_T]

two points:

1.  You obviously haven't played Old Mac in a 40 MPH breeze.

2. You've also obviously been gossiping about my game with other GCAers..

[William_G]

Yes, it is essential as it is also a component of great golf.

Thanks

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

No, I am not a European, that’s for those who believe in the EURO and the mess that is, has and will be caused by the bloody thing. Also I do not seek my country to dominate Europe but just trade with them for the good of all.
 
So by over this side of the pond I refer to us the UK.

The aerial game is the enemy of golf, good courses and I would have thought any worthy designer or architect would agree. It bypasses their efforts; it flies above the course irrespective of the site, location or quality, yet all aided by technology. Modify technology and what are you left with, well not much of an aerial game.

Aerial kills GCA, navigating and understand the basics of the game, you have effectively demoted the great game of golf to a long pitch and putt game, while making a good design, great course and our golfing heritage worthless, all for the pleasure of what? Why not stand at the edge of a mountain and hit the ball as far as you can out into the valley below, ops sorry forget you play golf over there to get a good score and fun/enjoyment takes second place. Replace the aerial game with a Target range then go Putting, you have no need of a full course as your balls are in the air most of the time.

Golf is played over a course with hazards to confront the golfer; the aerial game is the easy option of negating the challenge of facing the designers efforts and hazards. Where is the sense in that and what is the point of wanting to play all the great courses in the world, noting that many where never designed for today’s aerial game.

I PLAY GOLF, wish more would take up the challenge as they may find it fun. Also not forgetting what is the points of architects/designers without a course.

Melvyn

[Mac Plumart]

To build on Brian's point about the underappreciation of the ground game...

I took some Southern golfers to Ballyneal and Dismal earlier this year.  I prepped them about how, especially, Ballyneal was designed for the ground game and low running/bouncing approach shots while we were in transit to the courses and while we were at the courses.

Excluding me, guess how many shots were approached to the greens using ground game shots.  ZERO!!!!

I was shocked.

[George Pazin]

To build on Brian's point about the underappreciation of the ground game...

I took some Southern golfers to Ballyneal and Dismal earlier this year.  I prepped them about how, especially, Ballyneal was designed for the ground game and low running/bouncing approach shots while we were in transit to the courses and while we were at the courses.

Excluding me, guess how many shots were approached to the greens using ground game shots.  ZERO!!!!

I was shocked.

You shouldn't be, people will almost always opt for shots they are familiar with. That's even what the best advise ("Don't try a shot if you don't think you can pull it off 70% of the time" says Jack N, etc).

Here's the thing, to me anyway: If a course is designed to allow the ground game (and no one means topping shots repeatedly as the ground game, contrary to what many on here seem to believe), it will accommodate the aerial game; the reverse is often not true.

The ground game is used most frequently in recovery shots. Even the absolute best golfers in the world only hit two-thirds of their greens in regulation (and here's a shock: it's rarely the same two-thirds for all golfers! duh). So by designing for primarily aerial approach shots, one severely limits the types of recovery shots available.

In the perfect world, I don't think one should design for either specifically. You simply set up a hole and allow folks to decide their own way of playing it. (Not coincidentally, this approach allows for the ground game, while designing for the aerial often does not.)

[Tim Bert]

I can't see how the ground game is essential for great GCA.  I can see how it is essential to provide great GCA for a wide range of players and abilities. 

I like to have the ground option, but barring tight lies and high winds I think the aerial attack is more accurate for almost all of us.  So if I'm trying to minimize stokes and I'm not playing somewhere like Bandon then I'm probably going to hit the ball in the air even if the ground option is provided.  If on the other hand my focus is fun then I will often choose the ground option because it is in many cases more enjoyable to me.  The ground game requires a bigger combination of creativity and skill in my opinion whereas the aerial attack generally takes only skill and less imagination or creativity - the exception being courses where the aerial attack allows for aiming away from the pin for an optimal result.

Jud - I don't agree that the ground game is the primary option at Kingsley.  It is almost always an option, but I think it is rarely the primary or optimal one for most golfers at that course. 

Do you want to land the ball short of the hole?  Almost always.  Do you frequently want to aim away from the hole?  Yes.    But I don't think these questions define the ground game.  They dictate a fun, imaginative, creative way to play aerial golf.

Do you really frequently putt or bump and run from 50 yards or longer?  Not me or the others I've played with there.  Maybe if we are fooling around or having some fun.  It is almost always and option but rarely the best one.  Just off the top of my head, the ground game is not a great option (until you get around the green) on 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 16,17,18.  And it isn't the best option on most of the remaining holes.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Yes it is essential – but not on every hole.

GREAT golf course architecture is not necessarily only for the pros - which is the crux of my argument –it should also be playable for all golfers – including the ones that need a long iron to roll the ball onto the green as opposed the big hitter that can loft it in.

Or the less long players that need to “up and down”  from 30 yards out.
Rather than needing a wedge to loft it over a bunker on a “blocked out” green they have the opportunity to play their  trusted “bump and run” to an open entrance.

To take it further, a GREAT golf course architecture should really be trying to get excellent turf conditions, which in my book means close cut fairways giving “tight” lies and a lot of roll.

To take the GREAT  theme even further -  GREAT golf course architecture will strive to have the course maintained with hard greens – not soft – making the need to “roll”  rather than “bounce” a further ESSENTIAL consideration for GREAT golf course architecture.

With these pre-conditions the axiom for the golf course architect is to create entrances to greens to allow a rolling ball to find it’s way in. Particularly down-hill, down-wind greens and preferably with a choice of “feeds” and a variety of lines for the ball to roll along.

Well I’m glad I got that off my chest – I feel a lot better !!!

[Jud_T]

Tim,
It was a typically leading question.  When is the ground game ever the primary option if you're not playing in a 3 club wind?  and yes I rarely ever hit anything other than a bump and run shot inside 80 yards at Kingsley.

[Sean Leary]

Prairie Dunes is  that has the right conditions for a ground game but the design does not lend itself to that. Amazingly there is only really 1 hole that I will normally consider bouncing it in there on (7).

[Mike_Young]

The ground GAME is a misnomer.  High caliber golf is played today in the air because of the equipment and geography.  When I say geography I mean where most of our courses are located.  The majority of American golfers grow up on courses where the ground game is not available either because of agronomic conditions or soils.  SO having said that, it seems that courses should allow for e option of the ground game BUT don't expect the good players to use it.  
A couple of weeks ago I played Old Mac three straight days.  I had heard mixed reviews.  Scratch players from my club had played it over the summer and didn't like it.  The same for a couple of pros I know.   And that really made me want to see it because these guys are the epitomy of modern resort golf. I like it mucho, especially 16 of the holes.   I know why they didn't like it.  They play golf for a medal score and don't like match play.  Whether this site likes ground game or not, the American golfer doesn't understand it.  But then we know that evertime the Ryder Cup comes around lately don't we?

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