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DMoriarty

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2011, 02:14:56 PM »
The elevations work if you allow for a margin of error...which you refuse to do. Pine Valley didn't shave 20 feet off the top of the plateau yet the topo and Google Earth are about 20 feet in disagreement, no? How big is the area Google Earth uses to average out the numbers for its elevations?

Which topo?   As for the height of the 6th hole ridge and the 4th hole ridge, the USGS topo matches Google Earth.  The only topo where it is significantly different is the 1913 topo of Crump's property, which has the entire sixth hole ridge higher.  But even that is not enough to create the view we see in those photos.

Quote
As to the pictures...the clearing phase of a golf course is a specific event and photographs of it would usually be catalogued. How would the picture of Crump in the woods be catalogued? Unless he did have a license/profit I can't imagine labeling it with the specificity required to put him on this finite 184 acres of privately owned land...especially when he knew the family across the street that owned a couple thousand acres.

"Imagine" is the right word here, Jim, because you and I have no idea whether they photographed and "catalogued" the clearing stage.  Same goes for the hunting photo, but I can imagine that they catalogued the hunting photos.  I grew up hunting and around hunters and it was commonplace to "catalogue" hunting photos by date and location.   Also, people tend to hunt in the same locations year after year, especially if they have access and have had success.   I could tell you with reasonable proximity where I hunted 25 years ago, because we generally hunted the same land year after year.   I could also tell you who owned it and even who owned neighboring parcels.  Show me a photo even now with no more detail than the Crump photo and there is very good chance I'd be able to place it for you. Hunting is very much like playing golf.  The land plays a crucial role in the adventure. Like certain details of quality golf courses, details of the land one hunts tend to stick.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill_McBride

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #151 on: November 18, 2011, 02:17:51 PM »
David, it's a shame you can't get paid your hourly rate for the time you are obviously putting into GCA research and debate.    ;)

DMoriarty

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #152 on: November 18, 2011, 03:24:04 PM »
David, it's a shame you can't get paid your hourly rate for the time you are obviously putting into GCA research and debate.    ;)

I'd rather make money gambling.  Care to wager who has more posts over the past 10 days?  How about over the past month? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill_McBride

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #153 on: November 18, 2011, 03:59:09 PM »
David, it's a shame you can't get paid your hourly rate for the time you are obviously putting into GCA research and debate.    ;)

I'd rather make money gambling.  Care to wager who has more posts over the past 10 days?  How about over the past month? 

Yes but yours are so much more thoughtful.

JESII

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #154 on: November 18, 2011, 04:19:13 PM »
Show me a photo even now with no more detail than the Crump photo and there is very good chance I'd be able to place it for you. Hunting is very much like playing golf.  The land plays a crucial role in the adventure. Like certain details of quality golf courses, details of the land one hunts tend to stick.   


Go and have another look at the Crump photo and tell me that...

JESII

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #155 on: November 18, 2011, 06:50:02 PM »

The elevations work if you allow for a margin of error...which you refuse to do. Pine Valley didn't shave 20 feet off the top of the plateau yet the topo and Google Earth are about 20 feet in disagreement, no? How big is the area Google Earth uses to average out the numbers for its elevations?


Which topo?   As for the height of the 6th hole ridge and the 4th hole ridge, the USGS topo matches Google Earth.  The only topo where it is significantly different is the 1913 topo of Crump's property, which has the entire sixth hole ridge higher.  But even that is not enough to create the view we see in those photos.


Did someone ever actually lay the golf course over the 1898 USGA topo?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #156 on: November 19, 2011, 10:57:22 PM »
[quote author=Jim Sullivan link=topic=50130.msg1140928#msg1140928 date=1321

Pat,

You're doing great! Keep it up!!!

What did you decide about the Sumner station? I forget? Was it ever used? Or only at night time on west bound trains??? Remind me...

The Sumner station was NOT a stop on the Express train from Philly.

Crump had two choices and I detailed the ETD's and ETA's on both, the Express and the "milk run"

Obviously, your lack of sleep has impaired your memory.

In addition, AWT clearly stated that the train was "speeding" when he almost broke his neck to catch a "chance glimpse"

AWT also stated that it was a one hour run to AC, meaning the train had to average app 60 mph or more.

Have  your kids help you do the math and you'll figure it out/b]

[/quote]

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #157 on: November 21, 2011, 12:35:35 PM »
Patrick,

Derision is the last resort of a mind that is bankrupt of sensible arguments.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #158 on: November 21, 2011, 12:52:55 PM »


Herewith the deed that conveyed the 184.31 acre core PV property from Crump to Pine Valley Golf Club in 1913.








Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #159 on: November 21, 2011, 01:11:26 PM »

The elevations work if you allow for a margin of error...which you refuse to do. Pine Valley didn't shave 20 feet off the top of the plateau yet the topo and Google Earth are about 20 feet in disagreement, no? How big is the area Google Earth uses to average out the numbers for its elevations?


Which topo?   As for the height of the 6th hole ridge and the 4th hole ridge, the USGS topo matches Google Earth.  The only topo where it is significantly different is the 1913 topo of Crump's property, which has the entire sixth hole ridge higher.  But even that is not enough to create the view we see in those photos.


Did someone ever actually lay the golf course over the 1898 USGA topo?

Jim,



Here is an overlay of the 1898 topo onto Google Earth. 

I aligned the two based on the surrounding roads and the two lakes.  The match of the lakes and roads is very good, without any skewing of the topo.  Strangely, the RR track turns out a bit down from the orange line, which represents the RR track on the GE aerial.  And, the two streams going southwest (down in the picture) are too close to each other, if we believe that one turned into the 5th pond and the other is between the 15th and 16th.

The broader picture below shows the alignment of the roads and lakes.  The zoomed version shows the overlay of the course and the misalignment of the RR track and the two streams.

Is it possible that the USGS "squeezed" the PV part of the survey a bit?  I could stretch it out a bit to make the streams match, but then the roads and lakes would be a little off.  Perhaps there is another explanation for the slight mismatch.

If you slide the topo up a bit so the RR's on the two maps align and you stretch it side to side to align the two streams, then the green end of the 6th is about 160 feet and the ridge on the 4th fairway is about 150 feet.











 

JESII

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #160 on: November 22, 2011, 02:31:51 PM »
I don't know what to say Bryan...the 189 foot peak just South of the Southern part of the course (the 7th hole), and surrounding topo lines indicate a pretty steady slope in that area that is just not existent. There's clearly a mismatch between the two but I'd have no idea how to explain it.




David,

On what basis could you say the USGA topo matches Google Earth? Is there a different USGS topo?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #161 on: November 22, 2011, 02:39:28 PM »
I am sure you realize that any and all aerial photos have small distortions, which must be corrected by those making scale aerial topo/maps before use.  Naturally, the 1912 hand site survey wouldn't have those small imperfections.

I don't think the Google Maps were ever intended to represent scale photos for engineering measurements, and I know they cannot be relied upon to draw conclusions like that.  And the flyover and oblique views are simply 2D drawings angled in planar view, and cannot be relied on at all for accurate measurement, so why try?

The USGS quad maps should have no horizontal scale distortions, but at 10 foot contour intervals, they could have at least a 5' variation from the real elevation at any one spot.

It's just a limitation of the technology.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #162 on: November 22, 2011, 02:48:53 PM »
Jeff,

Look at Bryan's overlay in post #159. South of the 7th hole is a peak at 189 feet...40 - 45 feet above the 6th fairway. As you go in that direction when you drive by 6 and cross 7 there's simply no hill to climb out there anything like 40 feet.

I don't know what's right or wrong, but if we use your 5 foot margin of error from any of these topo/elevation tools the problems David has with the Brown picture go away. That's my only point.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #163 on: November 22, 2011, 07:14:08 PM »
Jeff,

Although Google Earth's measurement tool is probably not meant for engineering quality work, I did prove to myself some years ago that it is very accurate.  Try picking out any football fields with clearly marked lines and measure it.  The ones I tried all came out to 100 yards.  Or, pick out one of your courses where you've lasered the distances and compare those to GE measurements.  If you find one that's out, let me know.  I'd be curious to see it.

As to why this overlay works [perfectly for the streets and lakes, but not for the two streams and the RR tracks, I am at a loss.  I suppose the RR may have been shifted a bit northeast at some point.  It was 2 tracks in the aerials David posted, and now it's one track, so something changed. The two streams, I don't get.  Could they have rerouted the southeasterly one during construction and draining of the swamp? 

 

David_Elvins

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #164 on: November 22, 2011, 07:24:06 PM »
People of the Pine Valley thread.

Can I get something straight.

We have a topographical map from 1898.

After this map was surveyed the site was mined for sand.

After it was mined for sand, one of the world's most expensive golf courses was built.

And people are wondering why the 1898 topo is different to the current topo?? 

Surely the most logical answer is that the landform (and even the course of streams) was altered by man??
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

DMoriarty

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #165 on: November 22, 2011, 07:34:01 PM »
Jim,

1.  That is not the USGS topo.

2.  A five foot margin of error doesn't even come close to addressing the issues I have raised regarding those photos.  Not even close.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #166 on: November 22, 2011, 10:39:28 PM »
I think I have posted this before, but here again is the USGS topo overlaid on the aerial, from the NJ Atlas site.





Jim,  I think if you compare the topo to the elevations on Google Earth you'll find a nearly identical match.  Note that on the USGS topo the high point just right of the dogleg in the 6th fairway seems to be 164 feet, and the ridge about all the way across the fourth fairway varies between 150 and 160 feet.  I don't see how those photos work as you guys understand them.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 10:41:54 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #167 on: November 23, 2011, 12:04:13 AM »
Bryan, I understand that the roads line up between the old topo and google earth, but the elevations do not, and as you mentioned the streams don't either.   Check a few points against the USGS survey and you will see what I mean.  Remember the high ground over by the short course?    USGS has that at 206 feet.   The old topo has it between 170 and 180 feet.  The USGS has the high point near the bend in the 6th fairway as 164 ft.   The old map has it at about 150.   Check other high points and low points and you will see what I mean.

The one point that his close to the correct location and elevation is "Pine Hill" which the old survey has at 202 ft. and the USGS at 199 ft.  This is likely accurate because there is a stone there and this was apparently one of the key points they were using in this survey.  Apparently survey itself began in the 1870's after key points (such as Pine Hill) were identified, and the field work completed sometime in the mid 1880's.  

By the way, 150 ft. contour line on the old may very loosely follows the 150 line on the USGS survey, but with much less of the detail and only generally approximating the elevation.   I don't understand the 189 ft. ridge south of the course.  If there is no ridge there then either the map is wrong or there was a ridge there that was mined down.   The state Geology Report makes mention of "Pits" in the Clementon area in the 1800s. 
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 12:10:13 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #168 on: November 23, 2011, 03:43:57 AM »


On April 11, 1917 George Baghurst conveyed title to a tract of 131 acres to Charles S. Albertson for $1.  This tract abuts the northwest side of the Pine Valley property and extends northwesterly on both sides of the RR tracks. Baghurst also conveys a small lot on the southwest side of the tracks that is surrounded by the 131 acre property.  The deed also conveys a tract of land that is 30 feet wide for a public road that is to be known as Albertson Road.  Albertson Road still exists on current maps.

The deed was made because of an exception appearing in the deed from Albertson to Broadway Trust Company, dated December 17, 1913, that the “Tract conveyed by Charles S. Albertson to George Baghurst by deed dated May 7, 1888 and to be recorded” was never recorded.

On April 13, 1917 Broadway Trust Co. conveyed to Charles S. Albertson the same 131 acres that was conveyed to Albertson by Baghurst on April 11, 1917.  This deed also conveys a small lot on the southwest side of the tracks that is surrounded by the 131 acre property.  The deed also conveys a tract of land that is 30 feet wide for a public road that is to be known as Albertson Road.  This property is also described as the same property that George Baghurst conveyed to Charles S. Albertson on may 7, 1888.

This deed had an exception for a strip of land one hundred feet wide containing 8.55 acres (therefore 3724’ long) conveyed to the Atlantic City railroad.  This would essentially be the entire length of the property on the northeast side of the railroad tracks.

The deed also excepted a number of lots and blocks from Lakeview Park which appear to be the far northwesterly end of the property.

The deed indicates that Albertson sold the property to Broadway Trust Company on December 17, 1913.  With this deed he is buying it back.

Having assembled this property, Albertson turns around on April 13, 1917 and sells the part of the tract to the southwest of the RR tracks (and excluding the Lakeview Park properties) containing 64.66 acres to Pine Valley Golf Club for $1.

The following map depicts the Albertson property in red.





Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #169 on: November 23, 2011, 04:08:39 AM »
Two thoughts:

I don't believe that I have seen anything that definitively says that the property was actually mined during the 8 years that Lumberton held it.

It seems logical to me too, but logic sometimes seems to flee these threads.

People of the Pine Valley thread.

Can I get something straight.

We have a topographical map from 1898.

After this map was surveyed the site was mined for sand.

After it was mined for sand, one of the world's most expensive golf courses was built.

And people are wondering why the 1898 topo is different to the current topo?? 

Surely the most logical answer is that the landform (and even the course of streams) was altered by man??

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #170 on: November 23, 2011, 04:34:36 AM »
Bryan, I understand that the roads line up between the old topo and google earth, but the elevations do not, and as you mentioned the streams don't either.  

I guess my point is that if some of the basic features - the RR and the streams - don't align then the contours are probably not where they should be.  I could force the streams and RR to align (and not worry about the misalignment of the roads, but that seems fruitless.  I am really perplexed that the bounding roads align and the streams do not.

Check a few points against the USGS survey and you will see what I mean.  Remember the high ground over by the short course?    USGS has that at 206 feet.   The old topo has it between 170 and 180 feet.  The USGS has the high point near the bend in the 6th fairway as 164 ft.   The old map has it at about 150.   Check other high points and low points and you will see what I mean.

Remember that the old topo is USGS too.  Presumably they were both professionally done.  Perhaps the equipment and techniques of today are more likely to be accurate.  As to your specific points, the 1898 USGS has a high knob of 191 feet on the short course.  It's slightly displaced, but in the right area.  Maybe the measurement techniques of the day were just that much worse - out by 15 feet.  The old USGS topo would have the 6th closer to 160 if I slid it up a bit, so that the RR's aligned.  It might look better if I stretched the topo out so that the streams matched.

The one point that his close to the correct location and elevation is "Pine Hill" which the old survey has at 202 ft. and the USGS at 199 ft.  This is likely accurate because there is a stone there and this was apparently one of the key points they were using in this survey.  Apparently survey itself began in the 1870's after key points (such as Pine Hill) were identified, and the field work completed sometime in the mid 1880's.  

By the way, 150 ft. contour line on the old may very loosely follows the 150 line on the USGS survey, but with much less of the detail and only generally approximating the elevation.   I don't understand the 189 ft. ridge south of the course.  If there is no ridge there then either the map is wrong or there was a ridge there that was mined down.   The state Geology Report makes mention of "Pits" in the Clementon area in the 1800s. 

I'm not surprised by the lesser detail.  A lot of things have improved over the years, including surveying and mapping.  It must have been a tough property to survey.  Maybe they weren't as dedicated to detail in the 1880-90's

The 189 foot ridge wasn't mined down.  It wasn't on Lumberton land.  It was owned by developers who planned to build McKinley Heights.  Perhaps they leveled it as part of a subdivision development before they went bankrupt and Pine Valley bought it out.  Or, Pine Valley may have cut it to use as fill for the 6th fairway or other places.  The 6th fairway looks much too flat in pictures I've seen to have been built minimalistically on the then existing ground.  No doubt Pat and Jim could weigh in on that.  It's been 120 years since that survey.  Stuff happens.  Or, maybe the USGS surveyors just made a mistake and hallucinated a 30 foot high knob.  Logically, I think that that is the least likely scenario.

I'll try to overlay the small portion of the 1913 topo to see if it gives you more comfort.  The picture was angled, so it will be difficult.

Where are you trying to go with this line of pursuit?



Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #171 on: November 23, 2011, 04:40:55 AM »
David,

Vis-a-vis the low slung building and the the aerials of the barn you posted, I think it unlikely that the building was a train station.  It's on the PV side of the tracks nad there was no land deeded there to the RR.  Was that area also the swamp before PV got built.  Bad place for a train station.  Seems likely to me that it was a maintenance barn.  Do you see any other buildings in that aerial that might be a maintenance building?

Also, I think it would be much larger in any picture taken from anywhere on the PV property in 1912-13 than the object you see in your extreme blowup of the 6th fairway picture.  It's not very far from the 6th or 7th fairways and it looks like a pretty big building.


DMoriarty

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #172 on: November 23, 2011, 06:47:04 PM »
Bryan,

First, I am not sure that the old topo was a result of a "USGS" survey.  Maybe I am thinking of a different topo, but wasn't it based on a survey conducted by New Jersey which began in the 1870s or earlier?  Some of the base information may have come from a US coastal survey, but the survey itself was conducted by NJ.

Second, my understanding is that the way these things worked is that these old maps (even the 1898 map) were created well after the fact, and based on the survey information from years before.  They didn't conduct an entirely new topographical survey every time they made a new map (that would have been an incredible undertaking) but rather used the already mined information from the original survey.   If this is the case, then some details and new development were obvious added later, even though they had nothing to do with the original survey.   In short, I don't necessarily think all of the roads, maps, and manmade structures were even part of the original survey.  Perhaps a more accurate way of viewing the survey would be to try to match up high points, especially if they were used as anchors in the actual survey.  Pine Hill apparently was.   

But I think the results will be the same.  The survey is just not that accurate, perhaps in part due to the methodology.   I found reference in the old literature (1886 Annual Report of NJ Geologist, I think) where the person in charge indicates that sketching/illustrations were a large part of of the survey process.   In other words, some of it sounds more like a guestimate than a survey.
_________________________________________


 
Remember that the old topo is USGS too.  Presumably they were both professionally done.  Perhaps the equipment and techniques of today are more likely to be accurate.  As to your specific points, the 1898 USGS has a high knob of 191 feet on the short course.  It's slightly displaced, but in the right area.  Maybe the measurement techniques of the day were just that much worse - out by 15 feet.  The old USGS topo would have the 6th closer to 160 if I slid it up a bit, so that the RR's aligned.  It might look better if I stretched the topo out so that the streams matched.

Again, I don't think it was a USGS survey.

Also, you can't just fudge things to make them work! 
1.  The 191 foot knob on the old map is NOT "on the short course." It looks to be over a quarter mile away from the 206 foot high point.
2.  It may not even be the same nob!  The 191 foot knob is much closer to a 200+ foot nob on the border of Pine Hill than to the Short course!    Maybe it is all part of the same knob or maybe not, and there is no way of knowing.
3.  Even if it is the same nob (which I doubt) it isn't even close to the same measure!  It is 15 feet off!

Same goes for sliding the map up a bit to align the RR.  If you slide it up a bit, then all your reference points are off!  And the one point I trust --Pine Hill, is off.  Are you really comfortable shifting everything that seems accurate so you can get a reading for the 6th fairway to your liking?

I don't understand what your doing?  What is the point of analysis that allows you to move these points around as it suits you? 

Quote
The 189 foot ridge wasn't mined down.  It wasn't on Lumberton land.

First, given this topo, it is one heck of a stretch to assume there ever was a "189 foot ridge."  Second, as for whether it was mined or not, I have no idea how you can make a definitive pronouncement about whether it was mined.  How far back did you go in the deeds?   What makes you think that mining activity or leveling activity would necessarily show up in the deeds?  Was Lumberton the only one mining or digging?  I don't think so; none of the three names I came across were "Lumberton."

Quote
I'll try to overlay the small portion of the 1913 topo to see if it gives you more comfort.  The picture was angled, so it will be difficult.

You can if you like, but don't do it on my account or to give me "more comfort."  As you know I've already done it.

Quote
Where are you trying to go with this line of pursuit?

I originally looked at these things to help me understand those photos, but they don't explain the photos.  I thought we had agreed that the old topo was off, and then you posted that overlay.   How about you  Where are you going with this?
______________________________

As for whether the low slung building was a RR "station" I would have been very surprised if the building was part of the RR as opposed to owned by the land owner.  It looks like a storage building, equipment building, shop or something to similar to me.  But it could have been the location for the "flag station" with in reality wouldn't have to be much of a physical station at all.

By the way,  take a look at the deed you posted immediately above.  The 10 foot strip runs along side the RR right of way to the RR station.  Doesn't it sound like when this was first included (in a previous deed) the RR station was on the north side of the tracks? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #173 on: November 24, 2011, 03:07:53 AM »
Here is the overlay of the March 1913 Crump topo.

I've converted the contours to red to make them more visible and,
labeled some of them more clearly.

Some scrolling is required.




Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #174 on: November 24, 2011, 03:39:32 AM »
For comparison, here is a close up of the modern topo of the 6th hole.

Does it look correct based on what is actually there on the ground?  

Is the left side of the fairway really 10 to 15 feet higher than the right?

Does anyone believe that the fairway turned out that level without grading; without some cut and fill?

Following are a couple of pictures for reference.  Clearly the topos don't capture the nuances of the internal contours of the hole.







« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 03:38:11 AM by Bryan Izatt »

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