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George Pazin

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Raynor and second courses
« on: November 04, 2011, 02:24:45 PM »
Do any exist?

If so, did he do template holes on both courses? Or are there Raynor courses that do not have template holes?

(Note: lest anyone think otherwise, I'm not trying to be a smartass, it's an honest question)
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

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Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2011, 03:48:21 PM »
George:

Fishers Island was planned for 36 holes but they never built the second 18.  Yeamans Hall was planned for 27 holes but they never built the other nine.

The only project I know of where Raynor built two courses under the same roof was for The Greenbrier.  In addition to Old White, the original Greenbrier course was also a Raynor-Macdonald layout.  I saw an old aerial photo of it once; it had a bunch of the usual templates over again, but it also had several unusual looking holes I'd never seen before.

I wish it was still around, but whatever was left of it was plowed up by Jack Nicklaus when he was hired to change the course for the Ryder Cup there in 1979.  Can you believe they played the Ryder Cup at The Greenbriar back then?  A bit far away for the corporate tents they'd have today.
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Alex Lagowitz

Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2011, 04:01:01 PM »
Essex County Country Club hired Raynor to design 2 courses
He died mid-construction of the first course, and Banks took his place and finished the first and layed out the second course
The second course today was sold to the county of Essex and is called Francis Byrne golf course, and although run down, many template holes can still be "recognized".  I always wondered what it would have been like to have to strong Raynor/Banks courses in good shape and original design, but I guess we will never know.  The second course, layer out by Banks, had a few different templates than in the first. 
The first course features a short, eden, non-traditional biarritz, double plateau, long, reverse redan, alps/punchbowl and a road.
The second course as designed would have featured a road, biarritz, short, raynor prize dogleg, a true bottle, a semi-punchbowl, and potentially what could have been an alps.
A redan was designed in plans but never built.

Hope this helps
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George Pazin

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Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2011, 04:20:12 PM »
Good stuff, thanks Tom & Alex.

I'll have to keep bumping this until #1 George responds...
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan Kelly

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Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2011, 04:34:13 PM »
Quote from: George Pazin on November 04, 2011, 04:20:12 PM
I'll have to keep bumping this until #1 George responds...

You're too modest....

(Please tell me we aren't into ranking Georges now!)
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George_Bahto

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Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2011, 07:31:38 PM »
ha - you caught up to me

"A redan was designed in plans but never built."  ......   at Essex County CC, the West / lower course - Now a county course. Francis Byrne, after the private club sold off the course years ago - I'm putting this in there for people who do not know the history of the course(s).

This was really weird on the West course. The original plan calls for the 5th hole as a (normal) Redan but due to the topography of that area, the green would have been up near where the 6th tee is now but it would have been into the hill and would have been a tough fill for the green.   

Alex - the 3rd hole on the West was a Leven hole, 7, a Cape-style green (sharp fall off on the left), 16, a Hogs-Back green

17 was an interesting hole, a short -very par-4, diagonal drive over a running brook to a fat green -= but, I've been convinced that the green originally had a rear shelf that had been removed over the years, similar to the 14th Knoll Yale where, it seems, they took out the rear raised shelf on the green as well.

The hole ended up to be a 125-130 yard Short rendition
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
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Alex Lagowitz

Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2011, 07:47:27 PM »
Quote from: George_Bahto on November 04, 2011, 07:31:38 PM
ha - you caught up to me

"A redan was designed in plans but never built."  ......   at Essex County CC, the West / lower course - Now a county course. Francis Byrne, after the private club sold off the course years ago - I'm putting this in there for people who do not know the history of the course(s).

This was really weird on the West course. The original plan calls for the 5th hole as a (normal) Redan but due to the topography of that area, the green would have been up near where the 6th tee is now but it would have been into the hill and would have been a tough fill for the green.  

Alex - the 3rd hole on the West was a Leven hole, 7, a Cape-style green (sharp fall off on the left), 16, a Hogs-Back green

17 was an interesting hole, a short -very par-4, diagonal drive over a running brook to a fat green -= but, I've been convinced that the green originally had a rear shelf that had been removed over the years, similar to the 14th Knoll Yale where, it seems, they took out the rear raised shelf on the green as well.

The hole ended up to be a 125-130 yard Short rendition

George,
In the original plans of the lower course, I think i saw the 17th green being a double plateau green.
Also, I do not remember where I read/heard this, but I was under the assumption that it was a cape-style tee shot...the cape definition defined as what most people misunderstand it to be; biting off as much as you can chew...
I am not sure the validity of this claim, but i can potentially see the green having the tiers.

Also the current third hole at FB has a large mound surrounding the right side of the green, which gave me the impression that it was once a punchbowl?
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George_Bahto

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Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2011, 08:30:13 PM »
" George,
In the original plans of the lower course, I think i saw the 17th green being a double plateau green.

..........  the 17th on the UPPER COUSE IS a DP - a great one ...... the ORIGINAL 17th on the lower, West course is now the Cape-style green we have been talking about below, the present 7th at Francis Byrne



Also, I do not remember where I read/heard this, but I was under the assumption that it was a cape-style tee shot...the cape definition defined as what most people misunderstand it to be; biting off as much as you can chew... 


............ that's the definition now often thought of but, as we have talked about a zillion times here on GCA, the C B Macdonald definition is that of a green stuck out in some sort of hazard or just hanging out in mid air ....  examples: at Essex County West (FB) even the Bottle hole is to a Cape green - also a great example according to Charles Banks, the 2nd green at Yale

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 08:44:36 PM »
Alex: the present 1st hole on Francis Byrne is now the piss-poor, 458-yard, version of the original Banks Road hole (now only a Road Hole green complex) - Raynor and Banks designed the upper course, but Banks (alone) designed the lower course.

On the original routing when both courses began at the the Upper's clubhouse, the first hole was the present 8th at FB, you then played the present 10th, and went on from there.

When you got to the present 1st, it was the ORIGINAL 12th hole.

At that time it was the hefty 575-yard hole Road Hole ..................  see that practice green directly behind the present 9th green? - that was the forward tee and if you look way over in the corner to the right, you will see the original back tee - the 575-yard tee

When they opened the lower course to the public, they needed a new clubhouse (starting point) so they shortened the hole by the nearly 100-yards. building the resent pro shop/clubhouse. The original landing area was just forward of the present first tee. It was certainly a three-shotter.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2011, 08:49:27 PM »
Back to the original question about two courses; Aside from those noted above, Raynor also routed the two courses for Monterey Peninsula CC but died before he even completed the dunes course

I found an very early stick routing of both courses

The two courses for Essex County Country Club was the only 36-hole complex ever completed by Raynor or Banks
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor and second courses
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2011, 09:22:32 AM »
Thanks, George! Always nice to have the world's leading authority answer one's question!
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04
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