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Garland Bayley

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2011, 10:35:18 AM »
Jeff,

Let me guess. Forced carries!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Brightly

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2011, 11:10:15 AM »
At the risk of being serious in the face of so many funny responses...here is what I think:

Forgetting about the top women golfers who can carry the ball in the air as far as the average guy, strategic golf course architecture is probably FAR less important to the average woman compared to length and playability.

I'll bet the average 22 handicap, middle-aged female golfer can only carry a driver 120-140 yards in the air, and irons about 100 to 120. (And some are much shorter.) So they are probably playing away from most of the hazards, not over them. From what I can observe, their judgement of golf courses comes down to:

1) Were the tees far enough forward so I could reach the fairway?
2) Were there forced carries that I could not get over?
3) Was the rough so brutal that I could not get out?
4) Was there a way to run the ball on to the green, or did I have to carry bunkers all day long?
5) Was it a pretty course to play?

I am really not trying to be sexist, but golf to most women seems to be about making sold contact and avoiding trouble rather than overcoming the architectual challenges presented by a GCA. So I'll guess that is why they have no interest in posting here.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2011, 11:31:58 AM »
Bill,

That's not a bad list, and I would include are the tees positioned awkwardly - behind trees (don't laugh, I have seen it more than once), in valleys with no fw view, etc.  Also, do the tees either force a layup or put golfers in an awkward lie after a typical tee shot. 

You are right that its about solid contact and moving it down the fw.  Strategy really doesn't come too much into play for ANY average golfer as we discuss it here.  Sometimes, I hear complaints about holes being "just a bit too long" where they cannot reach the green in two, but its not a full three shotter.

Ward is also right in that the tee itself should be big enough not to look like an afterthought, and located well from the cart path, etc.

I had an employee once who had interviewed with the Dyes and read the Forward Tee document by Alice.  Alice had also reviewed his senior project badly, because some forward tees were poorly placed with forced carries.  Not long after he got hired, we happened to play a Dye course in a scramble and on the first hole we played, they had placed a really deep bunker about 50 yards right in front of the front tee.  He said, I guess they don't practice what they preach!

BTW, we do often run into situations where the cart path is for other reasons on the far side of the tee from the forward tee and it becomes a choice of making them walk to a good tee location or shortening the walk for at the expense of a better tee location.  There is always some give and take in design, and the ladies get taken quite often, I am afraid.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2011, 12:04:02 PM »
It's a numbers thing. How many golfers are there? How many are interested in architecture? Of those, how many found their way here?

Now consider how many women golfers there are. If the same percentage are interested in architecture, that doesn't amount to a very big number. Then when you think about them finding us here, and then discovering it's virtually all men...

If there is going to be growth in golf, it pretty much needs to come from non-traditional sources. Doesn't seem like there is much interest in exploring those sources, to me anyway.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kalen Braley

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2011, 12:23:33 PM »
It is indeed a numbers thing.

According to this article, 22% of golfers are female.  So if we extrapolate, 22% of 1500 GCA.com members = 330.

http://www.golfchannelsolutions.com/markets/usa

So clearly it is not that "particular" numbers thing you referenced or better than 1 in 5 posters on this site would be female.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 12:27:29 PM by Kalen Braley »

George Pazin

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2011, 01:44:33 PM »
Kalen, I'd like to have a little of what you're enjoying if you believe that number, 22%. You do realize that means, on average, that one member of each foursome should be a woman, don't you? Can't say that jibes with my albeit-limited experience at all. I'd guess that less than 10%, maybe less than 5%, of all rounds are by women.

Consider the universe of golfers. How many play often (say more than once a month)? How many of those even notice or care about the architecture, at least to the degree that they're willing to sit around and discuss it? How many of them find their way here? How many are going to stick around?

Now consider what a small fraction of them are women. How many are into architecture? How many will find their way here? How many will stick around?

Lastly, do you think those who post on any sort of regular basis is anywhere close to 1500?

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bill_McBride

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2011, 03:11:26 PM »
Kalen, I'd like to have a little of what you're enjoying if you believe that number, 22%. You do realize that means, on average, that one member of each foursome should be a woman, don't you? Can't say that jibes with my albeit-limited experience at all. I'd guess that less than 10%, maybe less than 5%, of all rounds are by women.

Consider the universe of golfers. How many play often (say more than once a month)? How many of those even notice or care about the architecture, at least to the degree that they're willing to sit around and discuss it? How many of them find their way here? How many are going to stick around?

Now consider what a small fraction of them are women. How many are into architecture? How many will find their way here? How many will stick around?

Lastly, do you think those who post on any sort of regular basis is anywhere close to 1500?



George, while guys are working all week, and women too, there are lots of women who play 2 or 3 times a week during the week.

Just ask my wife.........

George Pazin

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2011, 03:17:01 PM »
Yep, they're playin', not wasting time postin'... :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan Kelly

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2011, 03:29:29 PM »
That's not a bad list, and I would include are the tees positioned awkwardly - behind trees (don't laugh, I have seen it more than once), in valleys with no fw view, etc.  Also, do the tees either force a layup or put golfers in an awkward lie after a typical tee shot. 

I've watched (and played with) my daughter, often, and can attest that the forward tees are VERY often positioned not just awkwardly, but unthinkably. Behind trees? Yes. Several times. Men could hit any kind of a shot they liked from the men's tees, while women were forced to hit a draw or a fade in order to stay on the golf course.

Good list, Bill Brightly -- particularly Point 4: "Was there a way to run the ball on to the green, or did I have to carry bunkers all day long?"

If I were an architect, I would have one cardinal rule: There should be a ground opening to every green, if possible. This would make golf so much more fun not just for women of every skill level, but for every man (IMO).

I'd guess that beyond all of the other reasons cited for the lack of feminine (or at least female!) participation here, there's also this: They know they're nothing more than an afterthought to most architects, and they have no reason to suspect that that will not always be so. They have better things to do than beat their heads against the System.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2011, 03:52:55 PM »
Nice post, Dan, I agree with all of it.

Question: Does your daughter play the type of game described on here? 120-140 yard carry with driver, etc? I know women aren't as strong as men, but the golf swing isn't exactly the toughest thing I've ever done, and the numbers always struck me as almost insulting.

I remember playing Tobacco Road from the forward most tees with my then-girlfriend, now-wife for the first 4 holes. There was a tree directly in front of the 4th tee. I mean, DIRECTLY in the path to the fairway. It was then and still remains the most ridiculous - by a gigantic margin - thing I've ever seen on a golf course in my 15 years playing the game.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Huber

Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2011, 04:37:29 PM »
they are:
- too embarrassed by their game,
- too offended by boorish louts,
- tired of getting hit on,
- don't want to play from the forward tees inrelation to the guys,
etc.

Now that I think about it, why do women even bother WORKING at a golf course?  The tips must be great, but it must get old putting up with us after a while.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2011, 05:06:22 PM »
Question: Does your daughter play the type of game described on here? 120-140 yard carry with driver, etc? I know women aren't as strong as men, but the golf swing isn't exactly the toughest thing I've ever done, and the numbers always struck me as almost insulting.

No. She's a 4 or 5 handicap who drives it, in the calm, on the level, with average roll, something like 215 yards, I'd guess.

She's 5-foot-2 -- and has a very pretty swing.

I don't know how far an "average" woman hits it.

How far does an "average" man hit it?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2011, 05:17:16 PM »
How far does an "average" man hit it?

Exactly!

I think most of the thinking behind the multiple tee theory is badly flawed.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2011, 05:45:36 PM »
This would go well as the icon for the Merion threads here as well as countless others...


Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Jim Nugent

Re: Where the Girls Aren't
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2011, 10:39:02 PM »
Tom Paul used to welcome new posters by saying something like every night at GCA was like Friday night at the saloon after the cowboys got paid. 

GCA has a very male persona.  I suspect that's the reason women don't post much. 

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