Why doesn't Art Hills get ripped on this site?

[Will E]

From what I've heard he is a great guy and is great to work with. His talent of "telling people what they want to hear" is rumored to be unmatched.

Is this why he gets so much work?

Has anyone played a Hills course that is worthy of more than a 5 on the Doak scale?

Has anyone seen a Hills restoration that doesn't make them ill?

[Tim_Weiman]

Shooter,

I guess we are not equal opportunity critics.

[John_Conley]

I LIKE BONITA BAY.  I don't care what others think of my dissenting opinion - I've always had a great time there.

More than a 5 on the Doak?  I think so, but to be fair you have to remember that a lot of architects who've done work around Naples can't eke out more than a 5 on such flat land.

I also like the Dunes at Seville, but you've all heard that story.

[John Foley]

If we think Pete Dye gets no PR (good or bad), I don't think anyone visiting this site would ever realize that Art Hills is even an active designer! Here is a few more that we never bring up, good or bad.

Mike Hurdzan
Craig Schriener
RTJ Jr
Rodger Rulewich

[A_Clay_Man]

I am getting a little suspicious of these collective posts which always seem to be defining a certain perception which is in no way a group thing.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shooter,

I guess you missed my detailed review here last year on Hill's "Links at Lighthouse Sound" in Ocean City, MD.  I'm not sure I "ripped" Arthur Hills, but I did make the point that the course he built really didn't fit the windy site.  

But generally, I agree with JohnF that we get way too limited in discussing the work of only a very few modern day architects.  I've tried to change that through some posts mentioning courses by architects like Kelly Blake Moran, Roger Rulewich, David Horn, Keith Foster, Steve Smyers, Brian Ault, Stephen Kay, RTJ Jr., etc., but for the most part, those posts have drawn limited participation.

I guess that's only natural due to the ubiquity of Tom Fazio and Rees Jones, for instance, but you're right...Arthur Hills has built courses througout the land and gets very little discussion here.  I bet John Conley would argue that Hill's Dunes at Seville deserves better than a Doak Scale 5, and I'd make the same argument about his Wingpointe course in Salt Lake City.  Even the aforementioned Lighthouse Sound is at least a 5.  I find Hills builds some really superb holes at times, and has a neat "look" especially his green complexes, but I'm never sure that it all fits together in the way it should.  For instance, I find that he puts bunkers almost in the opposite place where they should be, but I've never played a course of his that I found boring....just questionable.

[Steve Pozaric]

We have a course here in St. Louis called Pevely Farms that Hills designed.  It is one of our CCFAD courses that runs about $75 in the summer with mandatory cart, GPS, unltd range balls, etc.    As I type this, I can't locate my copy of the Confidential Guide (I realize this probably borders on blasphemy, but....).  

Anyway, as far as the course goes, I think, for our market it is a bit, but only a bit, overpriced.  My first knock on the course is that it is cart only.  I guess you could walk but there are several green to tee walks that are up significant hills and would almost kill you in the summer.  

Other than 2 really bad holes around a lake (the holes are pushed up to avoid flood plain problems), I think it is a pretty well laid out course.  Definately one that rewards well placed shots but still offers multiple ways to get to the green.  Some holes allow for a ground game and some welcome a shot that can be placed so it carooms off a hill.  Some short par 4's that tempt a driver to reach/get close to to the green (or a par 5 that can be reached, but you had better get it there), but the risk is high as well.  Also, it is usually in very good shape.  

I realize the above is not a very meaty description, but all in all, it is a fairly good course.

Stevepoz

[John_McMillan]

I hope this isn't the start of a "let's criticize Designer X" string of threads.  

There are many more golf courses in the world that I can ever hope to play, and at my current pace, I can play about 10 to 15 new course per year.  I'd like to make those choices in a manner which increases my enjoyment of those courses.  This site is a useful tool in steering me in those choices - suggesting courses I might have missed on my own, and sharpening why there are some designs I enjoy more than others.  

Where I think the forum becomes least useful for me is when it attempts to become a "star chamber" passing sentences on individual designers.  It's useful to discuss a designer's portfolio if that highlights something which helps me to understand a particular course - but in the personal ways some of the threads have developed there is little useful information generated.

It amuses me to think that in some parallel universe, Tom Fazio, Pete Dye, Art Hills, Tom Doak, Mike DeVries et al post and critique the abilities of those who play and analyze their designs.  I suppose on that parallel forum, Art Hills has just posted a thread, "Why doesn't GCA Contributer X get ripped  on this site?"

[Tim_Weiman]

John,

Point taken.

I am wondering, however, if I missed a discussion on Lester George.  The guy wins a GD Best New Private and his name is hardly mentioned.

Any thoughts on that?

[Paul Richards]

Shooter:

I guess the answer to your question is that most of the
GCA discussion revolves around what people perceive as the
best courses.

In your mind, what are Arthur Hills' best courses?

[Jeff_McDowell]

Arthur Hills designed a course in Chaska, MN that I really like. The course has 18 good golf holes, which is a rarity today.

The course has good variety in terms of long holes, short holes, dog legs right, dog legs left, etc. And the routing on the back nine is superb. It makes a big loop around the property with every hole playing a different direction, and utilizing wetlands and hills along the way.

The only thing about the course I would knock is that the course is too predictable. There is absolutely no quirk. Any quirk on the site in the begining was promptly bulldozed. This course seems more like road building than laying out a course on the land.

I'm glad we have an Arthur Hills course in the area, but one is enough. I get the feeling that his courses tend to play, look, and feel similar.

[SPDB]

I'll admit to having been very impressed when I looked at photos of Longaberger. Has anyone played this track? i'd be curious to hear impressions

[David Wigler]

Paul,

Asking what is your favorite Art Hills is like asking which is your favorite meal: Meatloaf, Tuna Fish, or Spaghetti.  All are serviceable but none really stand out.  Hills has two great weaknesses.  First, either by demand of owner or general lack of knowledge, he almost never builds a course that is easy to walk.  Almost all his work in Michigan is cart golf.  Second, his green complexes are very mediocre.  Hills actually has a nice eye for hole design and fits his shots well but falls apart in making interesting greens.  His recent work at Shepard’s Hollow (Which made the top 10 new CCFAD courses in the latest GD ratings) is the best set of green complexes Hills has ever done (Although that compliment rates right up there with the best cook in my wife’s family).  For someone who gets as much work as he does, it is amazing that he has not gotten better over time in his routings, site plans, and green complexes.

The only caveat I will put on this is that Shooter and I live SE lower Michigan and Hills is from Toledo Ohio.  We are inundated with his work.  It might have the same effect that Damien has on Tommy.  We see so much of it and it is so average, that we become overly critical.  Fortunately for us and unfortunately for Hills, we are also in a hotbed of Donald Ross's work and the comparisons on routings and green complexes do not reflect well on Hills at all.

[NAF]

My parents belong to an Arthur Hills design in Delray Beach Florida..Addison Reserve.  It is composed of
three 9s and they are very solid golf.  It plays as a links course but he has innovative use of water with a few
cape like holes and some snaking burns.  It isn't the most memorable course but he threw in some good short
par 4s and very good undulating greens with swales and subtle ridges.  The bunkering leaves some to be
desired though.  The course is manicured perfectly and I enjoy all 3 nines..With the wind up it has some
teeth.  I would say it is a solid 5 on the Doak scale..

[BillV]

In Colorado, Legacy Ridge in spite of 2 awful environmentally impacted holes is pretty darned good and Walking Stick has no really queer holes and is very hard to criticize.

I wsa never able to get to Tammaron or Grandote, but some of my regular partners out there liked them fairly well.  Maybe the air did something to him there.

I generally find his courses unoffensive and some (e.g. Legacy) have outstanding greens.

[Will E]

Dave,
You're right on! Almost every course around here is either a Hills or a course Hills has worked on. His talent for creating average courses is unmatched.

He also seems to have a knack for putting in a hole that is totaly wacked, designed to ruin your day (see #4 at Bay Harbor Links, #15 at Stonebridge, #15 at Fox Hills, #7 at Oakhurst, every hole at Oak Pointe, I could go on and on).
Throw in the fact that I spend some time in Naples where he has designed more courses than anyone and I think you can see where I get my bias.

What he did to the UofM course could have been much, much better. I think that it could be as good as Pasatiempo.
Same goes for what happened up the road at the Donald Ross Barton Hills.

His work about 15 years ago on what was the first course at Bonita Bay is way better than anything I've seen him create since. It was probably a solid 7 on the Doak Scale before it was chopped up. All of his other don't do it for me. I was expecting a gem at his "Legacy by Art Hills" course near Toledo, I'd rather play his earlier design at Maumee Bay (both 5s).

SPDB,
Friends who know how I feel regarding Hills designs have kept me away from Shepard's Hollow, but assure me that I will like Longaberger in Ohio.

Paul,
Don't leave Beverly. If I see a Hills course you need to play I'll let you know. Bay Harbor, where the owner was very hands on, turned out ok. By no means is it worthy of its setting though.

[TEPaul]

Why does Art Hills NOT get ripped on here?? Hmmm! Actually you haven't been paying attention. Jeff Mingay ripped him so bad that Jeff actually got in hot water with his club. But that was quite a while ago and apparently all has been forgiven and forgotten!

The other reason is we are trying to figure out how not to rip anyone these days! Either that or we're trying equally hard to figure out how to rip everyone!! Just give us a little time to figure out how and why to rip Coore & Crenshaw, Doak and Hanse and then we will probably be ripping ArtH like a school of pirhanas.

Pat Mucci (and others) will not stop with this campaign for even-handedness and fairness to all and/or this campaign against Golfclubatlas's double standard in architectural critique. That could be the reason Art Hills hasn't been ripped recently.

But if you think we should rip him I'll start it out and adhere to Pat's even-handed, total fairness quota avoiding any suspicion of a double standard too!

Art Hills bunkering is completely boring and mindless, unnatural looking and devoid of all architectural merit. Not only that but MacDonald and Co has perfected the Art Hills bunker look and that alone should be damnation enough.

And the way Ben and Bill practice their art is almost unbiblical. They are completely guilty of not spreading their God-given talents around enough! It could also explain why they have been given jobs in Quaker Philadelphia first and not in Puritan Boston (Puritan Bostonians believe it's necessary to spread God given talents quickly and a lot while Quaker Philadelphians apparently do not).

So until Ben and Bill get cracking faster instead of wasting all this time on a couple of sites a year they should be ripped as architecturally shiftless footdraggers!!

[Doug Wright]

I've played four Hills courses to my knowledge--Legacy Ridge (Denver, CO), Walking Stick (Pueblo, CO), Tamarron (now The Cliffs)(Durango, CO) and TPC at Eagle Trace (Coral Springs, FL).  Although each of the courses has some fine holes, in my view except for Walking Stick each is marred by a couple of holes that I find either poorly designed or badly routed. BillV mentions this re a couple of holes at Legacy Ridge and says they are "environmentally impacted." What he means is they are routed through environmentally sensitive areas. I think that a change in the routing could have prevented the problems with these holes. Walking Stick is very cleverly routed through and around a bunch of arroyos and is the best of the four from that perspective and also because it has the most interesting greens. As a sidenote, Keith Foster claims design credit for both Legacy and Walking Stick (he opened Hills & Associates' western office in 1985 and was responsible for all their western projects), so it's difficult to credit/blame Art for these courses vs Keith.  Tamarron is on a difficult site in a mountain valley and definitely is forced with some very awkward holes. One of those sites where a golf course probably shouldn't be there. As for Eagle Trace, well, I hated it. I guess the pros did too as they abandoned it for the kinder, gentler TPC at Heron Bay for the Honda Classic. The design just doesn't work in any kind of wind, which you usually get there. Small, perched, unreceptive greens, several do or drown cape greens that are virtually unplayable in the wind, hidden water hazards--you get the point. Again, it's hard to know re the "better" of the four courses whether Hills or Foster did them, but I think I know...

PS to BillV: Grandote is a Weiskopf/Morrish course, and it's better than any of the above. A true hidden gem in nowhere southern Colorado.  

[BillV]

Thanks Doug.  I missed the Mid-Am hte year it was at Grandote and I never went otherwise to check it out.  Where do you decile   it?

[Doug Wright]

BillV,

When I get a chance (hopefully this weekend), I'm going to decile   the Colo. courses I've played. (I know you already did it, but I'll supplement, and maybe even modestly disagree with, some of your placements.)  

[BillV]

I look forward to it.  

I would hope that it's not the same.

[Craig Van Egmond]

In the past there has been discussion about Art Hills and while he doesn't get ripped often he also doesn't get much praise either. I have played 4 Hills courses, Bay Harbor, Half Moon Bay, the Legacy and Palm Valley and my favorite would be the Half Moon course. While none of them are horrible courses, none of them are great courses either, they just seem to lack something. You would think that with as many courses as he's built that he would have at least one that someone would give a 7.  Half Moon bay is the only one I would play again or recommend to anyone.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Jeff
Maybe it has something to do with our names, but I really liked Chaska Town course as well. Like you said, it's a strong test. I did not, however, like the short par 4 on the front nine (the drivable one). The green complex really fails there.
I think the course is hosting a big tournament; maybe an amateur event. I did recall thinking that those studs would tear the course to shreds.  

[David Wigler]

Craig,

Bay Harbor is a great example of the best and worst of Art Hills.  Ignoring the Preserve nine, which is just utter garbage and focusing on the Links and Quarry nines, you see a lot of wonderful hole placement.  Hills has a nice eye for where to fit holes on the property for dramatic effect.  I do not think many architects could have utilized the space better.  Then you get to his greens and see that they are uneventful and boring and his bunkering is outright bad.  This is the epitome of a play it once course.  The first time Joe Golfer shows up at the site, they are so overwhelmed at the beauty of it that they fail to notice its many flaws.  It is the epitome of a CCFAD, except that it is intended to only be played by people once a year so that the flaws are not noticed.  Recognizing what Dye, Doak, Kidd and others did with similar sites only makes its warts all the more obvious.

[John Foley]

I've played two Hills courses, HMB-Ocean & Dunes West in Charleston enjoyed both. There routing on HMB I thought was very good anmd the green sites seemed to work. My only complaint was that they seemed to have the opportunity to have some great chipping area's incorporated into the greens, but chose to keep the grass long. I'm sure it's a maintenance issue, but don't know if it was a design intent. maybee Pete can jump in w/ his thought on that.

W. Dunes west, it's an old plantaion site. Pretty flat and mainly non-descript. The water hazards were prevelent, but not overblown. Had  anice dual green on #18 which was sporty.