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Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2011, 12:58:26 PM »
re The Ekwanok CC question.  I have contacted the Chairman of their Library and Museum Committee and have informed him of the challenges to the belief that Travis worked with Dunn in the original design of their course.  And, have asked if he can obtain copies of records pertaining to the January 1900 meeting of Board of Governors.  Just a side note.  Someone indicated that Travis was a very popular fellow at that time, suggesting that his popularity was the basis of the Governor's decision.  Granted, he had become renown as an Amateur golfer, having been in the semi-finals of the '98 and '99, but it wasn't until 1900 that he won his first U.S. Amateur. 

A question was raised about the Pasadena entry.  We have correspondence that Travis carried on with the "Office of City Manager" in Pasadena about the construction of sand greens on the 9 hole course they were proposing.  The Max Behr reference has an asterisk, indicating that we are lacking in documentation of Behr's involvement with Travis.  But, one of our researchers, and I, can remember an brief item reporting that connection.  Unfortunately, neither of us saved it, and we have not been able to locate it.  Probably should just delete that reference.

As a general rule of thumb, I have found that relying on the memories of "old folks" who were around 60-70 years, or more, ago is shaky, at best.  I have found those memories to be of great interest, but often unreliable when checked against other evidence.  As a person in that category, I can present personal experience of the problems with "memories".  Just a word of caution for those who might seek out such sources to confirm their beliefs.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2011, 10:16:35 PM »
Ed
I'm curious to know what the chairman has to reveal....nothing would surprise me at this point.

I agree completely on relying on long term memories.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 10:20:44 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2011, 11:08:20 PM »
1.  I agree with you that relying on long past recollections is tenuous at best, especially when such recollections are usually second hand and those doing the recollecting were not even directly involved.  Most people are eager to help, and unfortunately are they often very open to whatever an overzealous interviewer might suggest.  So it should be of no surprise when such interviews only produce false confirmations.

2.  Regarding Pasadena, I think we are talking about the same proposed project.  Pasadena had long considered building a public golf course in Brookside Park and at one point around 1924 they were discussing the possibility of a nine hole course with Travis.  While researching Brookside a number of years ago I recall seeing correspondence from Travis where he discussed his process for sand greens, and touted a recent project (somewhere in the South East US) where he had had success with the technique.   It has been a while since I have seen those documents, but as I recall John Duncan Dunn was involved with Travis on the proposal. I could be mistaken but I also have a vague recollection that is was actually Dunn who had been out to see the land or who would be coming out to see the land.  Is this consistent with the information you have about the proposal?

Also, as I mentioned above,  I am pretty sure that Pasadena never built the course proposed by Travis and/or Dunn.  As near as I can tell, the project never got off the ground in the mid 1920's, and then a few years later the city hired a Pasadena local, William P. Bell, who had worked with George Thomas at Riviera, LACC and on a number of other high profile projects.  Bell designed two eighteen hole, grass-green courses for the park, one was completed in the late 1920's, and the two nines of the second course were added over time.  (Tillinghast had some involvement on the second course and on repairs after flood damage.)  Both courses still exist.  

If you have information indicating that the nine hole, sand green course was actually built, I'd be very interested in seeing it.  If not, the project may still be appropriate to list the project on the list, but perhaps the society should consider a notation for proposals which were never enacted?

(As for the Behr connection, I don't recall ever seeing anything about it.   I do have a recollection of a letter from Robert Hunter to Travis encouraging to come out to California to design courses.)

3.  Regarding Ekwanok, I am very curious to hear what you find out and hope you will let us know.    

I was the one who mentioned WT's popularity.  While his fame obviously grew as he piled up victories and accomplishments, I was somewhat surprised how well known he was even before winning an Amateur.  By 1899 his exploits were being covered by New York and Boston papers regular basis, and he seemedto have playing in one well publicized tournament and/or match after another, often competing against not only the top Amateurs, but also the top professionals.  In fact, given the reports of his busy golf schedule, I find it difficult to believe that Travis could have spent a month in Manchester directing and supervising construction of Ekwanok during September/October 1899.   He was reportedly busy golfing in and around New York, New Jersey, and Maryland during September and October of 1899.

But then there is no need to speculate about why he might have received an honorary lifetime membership, is there?   If there are contemporaneous club records establishing that Travis and Dunn laid out the course, then those records would be dispositive.  If no such contemporaneous records exist, then it would be difficult to ignore the multiple contemporaneous reports indicating that Dunn first laid out the course.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 11:14:50 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2011, 11:12:15 PM »
I almost forgot to mention that Travis apparently was in Manchester Vt. during August of 1899 --he reportedly lost a match on the first extra hole to Harry Rawlins, the pro at the nine hole Equinox course on August 26, 1899.  But the trip doesn't appear to have been an extended one.  He had been playing on Long Island the week before, and was in Newport two days after.  So the visit doesn't jibe with the version of the story I recall reading --that he was in Manchester for a month ins Sept. - Oct. 1899, directing and supervising construction of the course he and Dunn had laid out.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2011, 07:00:41 AM »
Ed
I think your date for the redesign of Columbus is off a little. Early in 1919 it was announced Columbia would attempt to secure the 1920 US Amateur, and Travis was being called in to strengthen the course. Work began later that year; WJT was assisted by Robert White. They did not get the 1920 US Am, but they did host the 1921 US Open.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2011, 07:07:59 AM »
In March 1924 these are the courses Travis advertised as his designs and redesigns:
Arundel GC (r)
Canoe Brook (r)
Cherry Hill
Columbia (r)
Garden City CC (r)
Grand Mere (r)
Hollywood (r)
Kirkwood
Lakewood, NJ (r)
Lookout Point
Milwaukee (r)
North Jersey
Northpenn
Onondaga (r)
Park
Poland Springs (r)
Potomac Park
Round hill
Westchester Biltmore
Yahnundasis (r)

Potomac Park could be played reversible and one of the Westchester courses was reversible as well. He did not list his early courses for whatever reason. I suspect he considered himself full amateur golfer who dabbled in golf design back then, with the emphasis on amateur, and starting around 1916 he became full time professional golf architect. These courses are from that era.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2011, 12:00:14 PM »
Regarding the discussion of Pasadena, the only information we have in our files about that project is the correspondence that Travis had with the the City Manager, C.W. Koiner.  Initial discussion was about greens.  The manager reported that a contact had been made with Kirkwood Links, where undulating sand greens had been constructed according to Travis's plans.  In one of the letters, the manager states that because of construction of roads, they "will not be able to locate our course as you have laid it out and it necessarily has to be changed".  The letter goes on to state that "We are planning ultimately to place an 18 hole course six miles from Pasadena, where we have plenty of water and a wonderful layout for a class course."  Later, on Feb, 1925, Travis suggests, "If you will send me a tracing showing the layout of the first nine holes, together with the proposed roadways, I shall be very glad indeed to make the necessary changes to adapt the holes to the best advantage to the roads, as I have a clear recollection of the topography of the ground."

The next letter in our collection is an April 18, 1925 letter from the Manager who reports "that we have not yet completed our nine hole course, which we were to have built".  The Chamber of Commerce had not raised sufficient funds. 

We don't have any record of it being built, or not.  Where we have knowledge of one of Travis's plans not being carried out, we have made a note of that in our listing.  Perhaps we should have a note concerning Pasadena that we have no record of the outcome of Travis's consultation with them?

I have not seen any records indicating that John Duncan Dunn was involved, with Travis, in this project.  But, if there is documentation of his involvement, we would like to have that information so that we can cite it.

Thanks to Tom for publishing the March 1924 Golf Illustrated ad by Travis.  I trust that everyone will take not that the list is prefaced by:  "The following are some of my creations:"  I've wondered why he didn't include Stafford Country Club, the short course at Westchester-Biltmore, White Beeches, and others.  There are other listings that he provided prospective clients that differ slightly from the GI ad.  If you want a comprehensive listing of Travis golf course projects, i.e. his original designs, his redesigns, and his consultations, you can find it at www.travissociety.com.  We recognize that the listing is a 'work-in-progress'.  New information has been discovered each year of the existence of the Travis Society, and we fully expect that the listing will continue to need updating and revising.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2011, 02:54:15 PM »
One other comment.  There have been comments regarding dates of some of the citations in the Travis Society listing of Travis golf course projects.  We welcome any corrections to our listing that are documented.  The information that is in the current listing is based on the best information available to us.  Some sources are more definitive, compelling, and, perhaps, more reliable than others. Still, there is a basis for all entries in the listing.  We did not imagine it, or make it up.  So, if you have information that conflicts with ours, it would be great if you would present it, either through this GCA site, or to us directly at TravisSociety@yahoo.com.  That will enable us to make an informed judgement about changes that should be made to our listing. 


Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2011, 06:59:47 AM »

Thanks to Tom for publishing the March 1924 Golf Illustrated ad by Travis.  I trust that everyone will take not that the list is prefaced by:  "The following are some of my creations:"  I've wondered why he didn't include Stafford Country Club, the short course at Westchester-Biltmore, White Beeches, and others.  There are other listings that he provided prospective clients that differ slightly from the GI ad.  If you want a comprehensive listing of Travis golf course projects, i.e. his original designs, his redesigns, and his consultations, you can find it at www.travissociety.com.  We recognize that the listing is a 'work-in-progress'.  New information has been discovered each year of the existence of the Travis Society, and we fully expect that the listing will continue to need updating and revising.


Ed
Travis did list two courses at Westchester. He did not list Lochmoor, most likely because John Sweeney designed the course and he was only 'consulting architect,' and I'm not sure he wanted to be associated with the finished product. Have you seen or played the course? I suspect there is a good reason why he did not list White Beeches and Stafford. What information do you have about those projects? I would also question the extent of his involvement at Sunningdale, Spring Brook and Longue Vue. What documentation do you have on those projects?


Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2011, 11:54:38 AM »
Tom--You must be spending every waking hour perusing our course list.  I'm not willing to spend all of my time justifying every entry that you question, but will tell you that I have been Historian of Stafford Country Club since 1997 and have Travis's original course layout, original hole maps, original green elevation maps, and a signed letter from Travis, from August 1921, expressing his great satisfaction with the course.  Re Longue vue, I'm looking at an ad from the GI May 1922 issue, with WJT's signature.  The add is for Longue Vue, and it quotes Mr. Travis as follows:  "I have designed a golf course at Longue Vue, which, 'although I( says it as shouldn't', is going to be a corker'.  Oops, I just noticed that he used the word "designed".  Did you not correct me in an earlier post, that "designing" was not a word used back in those days?  Designed is different from designing, I suppose.

Re Sunningdale, one of our documents is a copy of "Green Committee Report" dated Nov. 26, 1920.  It was faxed from a staff person at Sunningdale to one of our researches in May 2002.  In the third paragraph, it reads, "In accordance with the plans of Mr. Travis, we have put in the bunkers on the 2nd, 4th, 8th, 13th, 14th, 15th, and 17th holes.  We have built new greens for the 1st, 8th, 10th, 13th, and 14th holes and have commenced the construction of the new fairway for the changed 10th hole."  It goes on to mention construction of new tees on several holes.  The document is signed by Chairman Edgar A. Levy.

About 3 years ago, a member of Spring Brook was looking into the clubs history and learned that the person credited with "designing" their golf course did not exist.  This aroused his curiosity and drove him to spend hours in the Morristown library searching old newspapers.  He found a series of articles from April through May describing Travis inspecting the R.D. Foote estate and later laying out a course of 6000 yards.  Four articles in three separate newspapers, The Jerseyman, True Republican Banner, and The Morristown Topic.

You will scoff, I am sure at our documentation for White Beeches.  It is from their 75th anniversary book, in which they describe Walter Travis as redesigning their course in 1920.  I would like to have more info than that, and when I get some time, I'll do some newspaper searches.

While I am at it, just a brief comment regarding Mr. Moriarty's comments about Travis, and his popularity in 1900.  Let's go back to what started thiis particular discussion.  I had mentioned action taken in 1900 by the Ekwanok Board, where they awarded an Honorary Membership to Travis in recognition of his "work in designing and supervising the constructioh" of the golf course.  Some one responded by saying that the award was probably just because he was a popular guy.  I pointed out that, though one of the leading amateur golfers, at the time, his career had certainly not reached it's zenith.  He had not won any Met championships, but had advanced to the semi-finals of the U.S. Amateur in '88 and'89, losing to Findlay Douglas on both occasions.  If it were a popularity thing, why did they not pick Douglas, or C.B.?  They had certainly accomplished more than Travis, up to that point.  And, bottom-line, why did they announce that the award came about because of his "designing and construction" of their golf course?

Ed Homsey

www.travissociety.com

DMoriarty

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2011, 06:10:10 PM »
Mr. Homsey,

Let me start by saying again how much I appreciate you taking the time to consider the comments here.  I am sure it must be frustrating to have your good work and the work of your organization publicly scrutinized by total strangers, but hopefully the comments and questions will ultimately help your organization come up with an even more accurate list.

1.  Regarding Pasadena, the letters I have seen come from the other end of the correspondence --letter(s) from Travis to Pasadena, but it was definitely the same project.  If my recollection about Dunn is correct, then the reference would likely be in  these letters (I don't remember if there was one or several.)   As I said earlier, I have found no evidence that the course was ever built. As I recall, Pasadena had some trouble raising the money, and there were some questions about roads or other possible uses for the land. 
     Anyway, In 1927 William P. Bell was hired to design and build what Pasadena Municipal (now Brookside) in the shadow of the Rose Bowl. A second course by Bell followed a few years later.  I doubt I will be back to review Pasadena's records anytime soon, but if someone from your organization wishes to follow up to try and establish that the Travis course actually got built, that would be a good place to start.  But as I said, I have seen no evidence that it ever existed.

2.  Regarding your comments to Tom MacWood about the use of the term "design" and its variations, I wanted to say that I agree with Tom.   I am not nearly as schooled as he is on these issues, but have nonetheless read extensively from the era and I agree that it is very unusual to find terms such as design, designing, designer, etc. in reference to golf courses as early as 1900.  You quoted an advertisement from 1922, but as I am sure you are aware there had been a sea change in golf course architecture between 1900 and 1922.  While such terminology was rare in 1900, it was much more common by 1922.

3.  Speaking of the quote about Ekwanok . . . you again provide the quote about Travis' "work in designing and constructing" the course.  But what is the source of this quote?  
-- If you are quoting the Board of Governor's records from January of 1900, well then that would seem to be dispositive.
-- If on the other hand you are merely quoting the opinion of some later Ekwanok historian, then the probative value of the quote would pale in comparison to the various contemporaneous reports, all of which indicate Dunn designed the course.

4.  Regarding whether or not Travis was a popular figure in golf by 1899, the dozens or hundreds of newspaper articles documenting his play speak loudly to the issue, but I am not sure it is worth debating.  If Ekwanok's contemporaneous records from January 1900 indicate that Travis designed and constructed the course, then that would settle the matter.
    
  5.  You ask why Ekwanok would "pick" Travis instead of CBM or Findlay Douglas? "Pick" him for what?  If you mean to help design the course, then I am not sure they "picked" him at all, at least not initially.   If you mean for an honorary membership, then how do you know that they picked only him?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 06:19:01 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2011, 09:45:55 PM »
Mr. Moriarty.  No, it is not frustrating to have our work scrutinized by "total strangers" or otherwise.  I would expect that if we put our listing up online, it would be scrutinized; especially by participants in GCA.  And, if the scrutiny results in greater accuracy of our listing, that will be great.  Thus far, I'm finding that many of the comments, including some of yours, are of no help in that regard.  I would wish that those who respond to our comments would be more precise in their reading of our comments.  For example, in your reference to why Ekwanok would "pick"---whomever.  From your earlier post, and other references, it was clear that we were talking about their selection of a person to award an honorary membership.  You implied, in an earlier post of yours, that Travis was selected because of his great popularity.  I was merely raising the question of "why would they have picked Travis over much more successful and popular golfers of the day, such as Douglas or CB.  I was questioning your speculation that Travis' Honorary Membership was based on something other than, "having designed and constructed" the Ekwanok golf course.  And, I think I know as much about Travis's success pre-1900 as anyone (we are very near to having every article written about every tournament that Travis ever entered) and I say you're dead wrong if you think that he was the dominant amateur golfer of the years 1897-1900.  I'd love to say he was, but I would characterize him as a leading, and amazing amateur golfer who was yet to reach his zenith, in terms of success.  He was certainly on the radar as a rising star, but nowhere near where he would be in the general consciousness of American golf as he would be by the end of 1901.

re: the use of any derivation of the word "design".  I was instructed that it was not used in 1900 or through the 1900s.  I have no idea how far that extends.  I was being sarcastic in my comment, because I believe that comment was the height of absurd nitpicking, and putdown.  Who really knows, specifically, the vocabulary of a particular era, and when exactly did it change?  Was it on December 1921??  It is true that the Ekwanok letter of 1904 uses the phrase, "Laying out", and, if it is reallytrue that words such as design, designing, were not used prior to 1920 or so, I stand correct.  I shall await authentication of that particular fact.

re Pasadena, from your comments, it appears I was not explicit enough.  I should have emphasized that our files contain correspondence that went both ways.  From Travis to the Office of the Manager, and from the Office of the Manager to Travis.  There were several letters, and as I mentioned earlier, there was no reference to Dunn, nor to Behr.  Whether the course was built or not does not change the fact that they consulted with Travis.  Thus, I believe it is a legitimate citation in Travis's listing of golf course projects.  It was still a moment in his career when he was consulted about a proposed golf course.  A note that there is no evidence that the course was built would be appropriate. 

Ed

www.travissociety.com
 

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2011, 09:07:06 AM »
I believe that Ed will ascend to YABBGod based on this thread alone!

Thanks for your patience, friend. I do agree that the WJT site will be better for this investigation/quarrel, when the dust does settle.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2011, 09:59:37 AM »
Ed
I think I may have discovered why Travis did not list Stafford....his plan was never completed. Travis designed an 18-hole course in 1921 and for whatever reason the club only completed 9-holes. At the time of the March 1924 adv it was only nine holes, in fact it appears it was still nine as late as 1930. Did Stanley Thompson and RTJ add the second nine in 1931? I was looking at your club website you seem underplay their involvement.

The term 'design' was used often in the 1920s in relation to golf architecture....I've never seen it used in that way in 1900. Do you have a different understanding?

Regarding Longue Vue, conventional wisdom says the course was designed by Robert White in 1920, but you may be on to something. In 1920 White and Travis had just collaborated at Columbia, and its possible they did the same at Longue Vue. On the other hand the fact Travis never listed the course may also be illustrative. A more thorough look into the course's history might be called for, don't you think?

As far your other documentation I've noticed you rely heavily on club historians, and also put a lot of stock in a single document if it supports Travis, even if you have nothing to corroborate it. I would think some independent research corroborating one way or the other might tighten up your list. I suspect there is a lot more to the story than we know today.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 10:02:42 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2011, 10:09:17 AM »
Ed
Strike what I said about Longue Vue, the LV White designed was in Pittsburgh, the LV Travis designed was in NY.

LV in NY was a nine-hole par-3 course, which may explain why it was not listed.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 10:18:37 AM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2011, 02:25:19 PM »
Ed,

Glad to hear you are not frustrated. I must have mistaken your defensiveness and your "sarcastic" comments for frustration.  My mistake.  

I am sorry you didn't find every single one of my comments helpful.  I assure you a carefully read and considered your posts before commenting.  Perhaps you would have found my comments even more helpful had you taken heed of your own admonition and been "more precise in [your] reading" of my comments?  

1.  Regarding the popularity of Travis, pre 1900, had you been "more precise" in your reading you would know that our views are very similar on this issue.  I have never claimed that Travis "was the dominant amateur golfer of the years 1897-1900."  I'd appreciate it if you quit putting words in my mouth to set up straw-man arguments.  
    While I am not interested in quibbling with you about his popularity, you should know that the reason I was confused by your question (why would they  "pick" Travis "over" CBM or FD?) is because the hypothetical is based on unreasonable assumptions and therefore makes little sense.  What makes you think Ekwanok would have had to "pick" Travis "over" anyone?  Did Ekwonak's bylaws limit the number of honorary membership based on popularity to one?  Did the bylaws require that this single honorary membership only go to the most popular and well-known player in the country?  My guess is that we have no idea how many honorary memberships they gave, or to whom, or why.   I see no point in entertaining far fetched assumptions about why they would "pick" one guy "over" another.
   More importantly, it just doesn't matter.  So far, our respective opinions about why Travis might have received an honorary degree have nothing to do with the contemporaneous evidence regarding the initial creation of the course. Either compelling contemporaneous evidence explicitly identifies Travis as the "designer" or it does not. That is why I've asked you a few times for the source of that quote, and why I am asking for a third time now.

2. Regarding the usage of the derivations of "design," I wish you had been "more precise" in your reading of Tom's comments and mine.  From "earlier post(s) and other references, it was clear that we were talking about" the usage in or before 1900.  After all, the key quote - the one I have asked about but you haven't answered - was presented as if it was from January 1, 1900.  So there is no issue of how the word might have been "used prior to 1920 or so" or whether the usage changed in December 1920, or even what Tom meant when he said 1900s (in context it seems he meant the first decade of that century.)
   Frankly, I'd have no idea why you characterize Tom's comments (or mine) about the common usage as being "the height of absurd nitpicking, and putdown."  Understanding the context of the times in which these courses were built is hardly nitpicking, nor was it meant as an insult to you.
   I am also surprised by your comment that you are awaiting "authentication" regarding the usage. The only way to understand usage is to dive into the thousands of articles, letters, and documents written in or before 1900 and addressing the creation of golf courses.  Tom M has done that, and I have although to a more limited extent than Tom.    If you or anyone else here had done the same, I trust you would agree that it is extremely uncommon to see design used in this context in and before 1900.  
    But again, all this bickering is in vain.  The easiest and most straightforward way to resolve the Ekwanok issue is to  examine the source of the quote about Travis having designed and constructed the course.   If the quote is indeed from 1900, then that would settle the question as regards to Ekwanok.  If not, then we have only the multiple other contemporaneous sources addressing the creation of the course, all of which point to Dunn.

3.  Regarding Pasadena,  again I think this discussion would be more productive had you been "more precise in [your] reading of [my] comments."  I never once questioned nor even suggested that including Pasadena was not a "legitimate citation" on your list. (I may be a lot of things, but I am no Jay Flemma.)  To the contrary, I acknowledged and believe that it is appropriate  to list it, and lightly suggested adding a notation to indicate it may not have been built. (". . . perhaps the society should consider a notation for proposals which were never enacted?")  So while your words and tone suggest some sort of disagreement or conflict, we seem to be in agreement on this issue, and I applaud your decision in adding a clarifying notation.  If I ever come across anything confirming the course was built, I'll be sure and let you know.
    As for my recollection that Dunn was involved in the proposal, I was merely offering it as a helpful tidbit that might be worth looking into, especially by an organization interested in understanding Travis and his work.

Thanks again for your patience and hard work.

David.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 05:26:32 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2011, 06:18:27 PM »
Tom--The first nine holes of the Stafford CC Travis design opened on July 1, 1922.  The construction of that nine, plus clubhouse, roads, bridges, pump houses, and irrigation was as much as their financial resources could manage, at the time.  However, four years later, construction of the Stafford CC second nine was begun, with the building of what is now the first and ninth holes.  The remainder of that second nine was completed over the next couple of years with the full 18-hole Travis design formally opened in 1929.  The nines were reversed from Travis's original design.  Travis was well-aware that only nine holes would be completed in the beginning.  Travis was suggested for the project by a close friend of his brother-in-law, by marriage, who lived in Buffalo, NY, and was one of the prominent founders fo the CC of Buffalo.  Travis and his wife often traveled to Buffalo to visit her sister and husband.

I have conducted a detailed search of every newspaper database I can find to identify what Thompson/Jones did at Stafford CC in 1930.  Among the founders and early Governors of Stafford CC were the owners/publishers/editors of the two major newspapers in Genesee Country, Batavia's The Daily News, and the LeRoy Gazette-News.  As a result, both of those papers were very generous in covering every detail of the club's early years.  I'm amazed that they mentioned nothing about Thompson and Jones.  I talked with Roger Rulewich, at RT Jones' office, and he confirmed that their files listed Stafford CC for RT Jones and Thompson in 1930, but indicated that any record of what they might have done is buried in a massive collection of project files.  I spent quite a bit of time with RT Jones, Jr, about 5 years ago when he was a guest at Stafford.  Talked with him before and after he went out on the course.  He knew his Dad had been there.  After playing, he would not venture any guess as to what they might have done.  As far as his father's involvement, the most he would say was that, given where his father was in his career, he was probably more of an observer.
As I look at our course, it is apparent to me that some of our tee pads are very different from the early design, or pictures from early 1920s.  So, I'm guessing that they might have done tee work.  But, not having anything to go on other than the Cornish/Whitten listing, and what I learned in my contact with the RTJones office, there's not much to talk about.  So, I guess I wouldn't say that we "underplay their involvement".  It's just that we have nothing to say other than that they were at Stafford CC in 1930.  There is nothing to point to and say, "That's what Stanley Thompson and RT Jones did here in 1930".  It is apparent from a 1928 map that was drawn by a local engineer, that the original Travis design was completed as he had planned, with the exception of our par 3 fourth hole where the tee needed to be moved because of space problems.  With the exception of that minor modification the routing as shown on the original Travis map, the 1928 map, and today's is identical to what exists today; exception being that the original 278 yard, par 4 8th hole was reduced to a 199 yard par 3 hole, by moving tees up.  That was done in the late 1950s, with no architect involved.

If you check www.travissociety.com, you'll find the original Travis map posted.

BTW--in at least one other ad---and, though I have the ad hanging on the wall next to me, I can't tell you right now where and when it appeared--where Travis listed Stafford CC.  And, he included it in a list he submitted to Dr. Nilsen of Sunapee, NY, but not in a letter to Mr. Clarence Clark in regard to Philadelphia CC.  Both letters written in 1924.  To try to read his mind, as to why he listed it in a couple of places but not in a couple of other places is beyond me.

There is a mystery that I would invite you to investigate, if you will.  In both his letters to Clark and Nilsen, he mentioned Westchester Hills G.C. as a course he designed.  The folks at WHGC, and other sources, insist that it was Pete Clark who designed it.  Do you have anything different?

Glad we got the Longue Vue question resolved.  I have not spent much time about that course.  We have an interesting aerial image of the area where the course was located, but it doesn't show much.  We have an image of a 1926 postcard that shows the entrance into Longue Vue, referring to it as "New York's Most Fascinating Suburban Resort.  Naturally Beautiful. Beautifully Natural".  And, we have pictures of the main building, and other materials, none of which say much about golf.

Ed


Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2011, 07:31:44 PM »
Mr. Moriarty--

I can't fault your response at all.  I wish I had just stuck with the facts, and left out the sarcastic comments.  I was frustrated; even exasperated.  No excuse.  My response did not contribute to the growth of our knowledge.  I can promise you that I will concentrate on facts, and not attitudes, no matter how exasperated I may feel.  I want to be sure we have the best knowledge available in the creation of our Walter J. Travis golf course project list. 

Thanks--my apologies.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2011, 10:57:00 AM »
Ed
I think it is pretty obvious why Travis did not list Stafford, only nine of his 18-hole plan had been executed. The course was not completed until after he died. He also did not list Longue Vue, a nine hole par-3 course, and White Beeches, a new nine added to an existing nine. Tilly redesigned on top of his redesign at Sunningdale, so that is probably why he did not list that course. I don't believe Travis designed Spring Brook; Lochmoor was designed by Sweeney, so its pretty obvious why those two are not listed. He did not list courses where he was just consulting.

What information do you have regarding Travis's involvement at Essex County, Mass?

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2011, 11:03:28 AM »
Ed
Regarding Spring Brook, if the club was looking for Robert Hucknell as the designed of their course and discovered he did not exist, they right, as far as I know he did not exist. But Thomas Hucknall, pro at Morris County CC, among other courses, did exist, and he was in Morristown in 1921.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2011, 11:38:15 AM »
Tom--

They're aware of  Thomas Hucknall (not Hucknell, as reported in a 1924 Met Golfer).  According to Spring Brook research, Hucknall was Professional at Morris County Golf Club from 1916-1923, when he went to Essex County CC.  He had developed a reputation as a "shaper", according to these reports and built a couple of holes at Morris County under supervision of Raynor.  They speculate that he may have been involved in the construction of Spring Brook, but have not evidence to support that.  They believe that the series of newspaper articles published April through May 1921 is the best evidence available of the designer of Spring Brook's course.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2011, 08:32:44 PM »
Tom--You asked about information we have about Travis's involvement at Essex County CC. A Narrative of Essex Golf, Chap 5 pg 81, May 1909, The American Golfer, pg 396, The American Golfer, Aug 1909, pg 54.

ed

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2011, 06:49:18 AM »
Ed
You wrote that when Spring Brook discovered their architect did not exist they began suspecting Travis was their man. What is the name of the fellow who did not exist. Have you seen the newspaper reports that claim Travis designed the course? What exactly do they say?

Do you know what changes Travis made at Essex County, and what have you found regarding the collaboration with JD Dunn there? I don't believe Dunn was even in the country in 1908.


Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2011, 10:22:38 AM »
Tom--Please refer back to reply #59 for my answers to each of your questions about Spring Brook.  I see that, for the most part, we're going over old ground here that was covered in our email exchanges a couple of years ago. 

One final comment on this thread:  The bottom-line interest of the Travis Society is to produce an accurate and comprehensive listing of Walter Travis golf course projects, whether original designs, redesigns, or consultations.  We understand that some of the "consultation" listings may be relatively insignificant in terms of their lasting impact on a golf course, but we feel they are worthy of mention.  We would welcome any, and all, documentation that sheds light on any one of the entries in our list, whether or not it supports inclusion of the entry.  I believe that the Travis Society's email would be an appropriate forum for these types of communication.  Thanks for your interest in furthering our knowledge of one of the great pioneers of the game in North America.

Ed

TravisSociety@yahoo.com

DMoriarty

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2011, 03:52:32 PM »
I am curious as to why Travis didn't do more work in California.  I forgot this earlier, but I have seen at least one article indicating he spent at least one winter in Pasadena in the early to mid-1920's.  I have often wondered if it perhaps was just bad timing relating to his contoured sand green approach.  Many of the courses in California were switching to grass greens right about the time he was pitching the use of sand greens in Pasadena.   

______________________________________________

Ed,

If you are still reading, one thing I forgot to mention earlier is that "Pasadena Golf Club" was already in existence at the time in question and was private, and I have never seen a connection to Travis.  The proposed Travis project was for a Pasadena Municipal Golf Course

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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