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Garland Bayley

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Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #300 on: February 23, 2012, 04:27:00 PM »
Tom,

I suspected he got greedy on his second shot. However, I see now from your explanation that it wasn't until the third that he started to get greedy.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #301 on: February 23, 2012, 04:32:14 PM »
This topic has probably been beaten to a bloody pulp on any number of threads, but i haven't the stamina to go through them all.  Bottom line... what is the play on this hole?

1. Try to hit driver up the left and if successful, a relatively easy 2nd shot into the green lengthwise.  If unsuccesful, ball rolls all the way down the hill to the right leaving a delicate high-lofted shot over a bunker to a thin green?

2.  lay back with a long to mid-iron on the left side leaving a longer, although still doable, shot into the green.

Do have this correct?

WW

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #302 on: February 23, 2012, 04:39:23 PM »
Howard, I think they widened the #14 green by six feet about 3-4 years ago.

#14 is so hard.  It may the only example I know, of a 320 yard hole being the 1st or 2nd most difficult hole (versus par) on a full-size course.

That's the thing with you low 'cappers. As soon as they make a hole that plays as hard for you as it does for us high 'cappers, you start saying it should be changed. ;)


If you check the record, sir, I don't believe you'll find anywhere I suggest it should be changed.  Neutral on the subject, except to say that the hole plays too great a role in one's total medal score.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #303 on: February 23, 2012, 04:42:56 PM »
This topic has probably been beaten to a bloody pulp on any number of threads, but i haven't the stamina to go through them all.  Bottom line... what is the play on this hole?

1. Try to hit driver up the left and if successful, a relatively easy 2nd shot into the green lengthwise.  If unsuccesful, ball rolls all the way down the hill to the right leaving a delicate high-lofted shot over a bunker to a thin green?

2.  lay back with a long to mid-iron on the left side leaving a longer, although still doable, shot into the green.

Do have this correct?

WW

You have everything right, except for:

1.  In my experience, the layup play is closer to a 5-wood, something that will go 230-240 yards (steeply downhill), leaving a 75-90 yard uphill shot, a full spinning wedge shot.

2.  No matter where you miss the green and where the flag is, the second shot is difficult.  Toughest green to hit from 20-40 yards ever.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #304 on: February 23, 2012, 05:00:04 PM »
Tom,

Not to nitpick, but couldn't you have just not announced other balls you found in the woods that weren't yours?  Is there anything in the rules that states you must report you found his ball if you were only looking for yours?

Its seems this would be especially easy if you didn't know what kind of ball he was was playing....
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 05:01:44 PM by Kalen Braley »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #305 on: February 23, 2012, 05:29:56 PM »
Howard, I think they widened the #14 green by six feet about 3-4 years ago.

#14 is so hard.  It may the only example I know, of a 320 yard hole being the 1st or 2nd most difficult hole (versus par) on a full-size course.

That's the thing with you low 'cappers. As soon as they make a hole that plays as hard for you as it does for us high 'cappers, you start saying it should be changed. ;)


If you check the record, sir, I don't believe you'll find anywhere I suggest it should be changed.  Neutral on the subject, except to say that the hole plays too great a role in one's total medal score.

Notice the plural on low 'cappers. That was not specific to you. I'm sure you will agree there are plenty of low 'cappers that bellyache about the hole.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #306 on: February 23, 2012, 05:32:13 PM »
Tom,

Not to nitpick, but couldn't you have just not announced other balls you found in the woods that weren't yours?  Is there anything in the rules that states you must report you found his ball if you were only looking for yours?

Its seems this would be especially easy if you didn't know what kind of ball he was was playing....

Recalling the playoff at Torrey Pines some years back, I believe once a ball has been found, it must be identified.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #307 on: February 23, 2012, 05:38:12 PM »
Tom,

Not to nitpick, but couldn't you have just not announced other balls you found in the woods that weren't yours?  Is there anything in the rules that states you must report you found his ball if you were only looking for yours?

Its seems this would be especially easy if you didn't know what kind of ball he was was playing....

Kalen,
If no one knows what you're playing its very easy to cheat. If you play a provisional its SOP to announce what it is and reiterate the original ball
markings.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #308 on: February 23, 2012, 05:40:04 PM »
If you check the record, sir, I don't believe you'll find anywhere I suggest it should be changed.  Neutral on the subject, except to say that the hole plays too great a role in one's total medal score.

IIRC, didn't you watch someone have a career round wrecked on the hole?  And didn't that person say that they STILL woudn't change the golf hole?

The single most madening triple I've taken since I began the game.  6 shots from 80 yds away.  Ping pong with myself on the green.  I think it's a great hole and a ballsy way for C&C to get over/off the hill.  If you don't have #14, how do you get #15?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 05:42:24 PM by Ben Sims »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #309 on: February 23, 2012, 06:02:23 PM »
If you check the record, sir, I don't believe you'll find anywhere I suggest it should be changed.  Neutral on the subject, except to say that the hole plays too great a role in one's total medal score.

IIRC, didn't you watch someone have a career round wrecked on the hole?  And didn't that person say that they STILL woudn't change the golf hole?


I can't remember any specific instances.  I do remember reviewing the average scores from the 2009 OGA Mid-Am, and seeing average scores from #14 over 5.00.  I've played the hole over ten times.  It just seems so easy to make a big number here.  In my experience and through anecdotal evidence, scoring 7 or 8 is more common here than any hole I've played, with the possible exception of #18 at Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow.

I see it as being possible to shoot 75 with an 8 on #14. 



William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #310 on: February 23, 2012, 06:50:55 PM »
or a 70 with a birdie
It's all about the golf!

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #311 on: February 23, 2012, 07:00:27 PM »
Bandon has cleared a lot of brush left of the fairway so that balls are not lost on the left side.  Also, as mentioned on this string, they widened the green.  I really hope that they don't change #14 much.  It is a unique hole in golf.   I felt #16 at Pacific Dunes was much more difficult approach and had an equally narrow green - - - and I loved #16 too.  Just don't understand the criticism of either holes.  Both holes are 2 of the most fun golf holes at the resort with some of the most unique shots at the resort - - - and that is why I play the game.  

I can see changes to #16 and #18 so long as they are not to the green complexes - which are both great.   

« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 11:45:07 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #312 on: February 23, 2012, 07:47:18 PM »
I am too lazy to go through this entire thread to find out the answer to this question: Has Coore or Crenshaw ever given his thoughts about the hole? 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #313 on: February 24, 2012, 11:35:59 AM »
Jerry, I seem to recall an interview where Bill Coore spoke fondly of 14, I will try to find it. Could just be me gettin' old, of course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #314 on: February 24, 2012, 11:59:17 AM »
Good article by Thomas Dunne:

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/another-bandon-beauty

In addition, Ran Morrissett's writeup mentions that #14 is one of both Mike Keiser and Ben Crenshaw's favorites.  I also remember another article which begins with Crenshaw at the teebox, admiring the hole.

Bandon Trails is so pretty, so nice.  Great place.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #315 on: February 24, 2012, 12:34:40 PM »
The 14th is a favorite of Coore's and Keiser's, that's well documented.  The specific location of the hole on the property holds a special place in Mr. Keiser's heart, because it was when he stood near the location of the tee box that he decided to buy the property.  Ironically enough, his chosen architects for the first two golf courses never approached that area and when the third did, it was immediately christened as a controversial hole.  There can be no doubt that one can see a majestic sweep of beautiful property from the 14th tee.  There is also no doubt that incorporating that area in the routing for Bandon Trails was the number one issue for the competing architects.  Mr. Keiser told me that one candidate proposed building a tunnel, which automatically disqualified him.  Ultimately, they went with the C&C design, despite the fact that it mandated a very arduous walk from the 13th green uphill to the 14th tee.  I made that walk on the day that Bandon Trails opened and questioned just how long they could get away with such a setup.  I think it was a year before they put in a cart shuttle to take players, caddies and bags up to the 14th tee.

The 14th hole has been controversial mostly because the margin of error was viewed as razor thin, both with the tee shot (which had to be well left, toward the forest, in order to get a flat lie and a decent angle at the green, and with the second shot, which was to an narrow, elevated green that was really hard to hit.  It was the quintessential quirky hole that would be judged acceptable on many a classic layout, but the modern fussy golfers (myself included) felt that the quirk was too forced and too unfair and too easy to correct.  I know the hole has been tweaked and I highly doubt that a substantial redo is in the works, I cannot help but speculate that another significant tweak is coming.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #316 on: February 24, 2012, 01:18:19 PM »

#14 creates the typical controversy due to the tiny surface area of the green.  For me, I used to tell my players to try to keep their tee shot on the left third of the fairway to have a look at the green.  The second shot is definitely exacting...but isn't that why we play?  And, should you knock one stiff to make an easy 3 like I did the very last time I played it...there is no better feeling!  I did see a one-time Quaker Ridge club champ make a 5 the first time he played it after driving the front.  Back pin suckered him into trying to make a 2 and he proceeded to putt off the back and, well, be severely penalized.  #16 is a completely unique par-5 with perhaps the widest effective landing area off any tee on the property.  Just a great hole where you certainly have to work to make your way to the green - but what a view you are rewarded with!  Nothing even remotely unfair about it.  #6 also has a HUGE landing area left of the first fairway bunker that, properly played, should be relatively easy to hit.  


I just had to bring up these points about 14 again having seen it far more than most of you - as a caddie and player witnessing probably 75-100 plays.  I am still amazed that some of you find it unfair and/or a weak link.  14 is unique and the resort is better off for having it.  It is an exacting short par-4 that, if you aren't greedy and can have just a little bit of a short game, you should not make worse than a 5 period.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #317 on: February 24, 2012, 01:23:39 PM »
Will,

How many times have you played it, and what were your scores?

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #318 on: February 24, 2012, 01:27:41 PM »
I played #14 with a 20 handicap and he made 5.  He hit down and to the right off the tee.  Hit second shot left of green in collection area (actually hit 10 yards left of it and it rolled down into the collection area).  Putted onto the green and 2 putt.  Might have been one of his only bogeys that round.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #319 on: February 24, 2012, 02:10:15 PM »
I have played the hole once as a 10 handicap and made 7. I really chopped it up though. Hit a 3-iron that leaked a little right. Had that tough pitch up to the green, and knocked it over. Flubbed a chip. Then I tried to either chip or putt from just off the green. It went off the green to the right. Put it on the green and 2-putt for a nice triple.

It's a polarizing hole, but I don't think you can say that half the guys that play it are nuts. Personally it is not my favorite hole on the course at all, though that's not because I made a triple when I played it.

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #320 on: February 24, 2012, 02:41:10 PM »
hybrid,  gap wedge to center of the green.  2-putt.  move on.


the next time I play the hole, i might hit less club off the tee so I can have a fully wedge into the green.  I think this is more of a course management hole than anything else.

Hitting driver or 3-wood doesnt really increase chances for birdie, but dramatically increases changes for 6 or more.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #321 on: February 24, 2012, 02:47:42 PM »
My thought is that Bandon Dunes is a very good American golf course with outstanding views.  But I don't go to Bandon to play American golf.  I can get the ocean crescendos at Pacific Dunes with what I consider to be much more compelling movement and ultimately better golf.  

I was just reviewing the back pages of this thread and found this quote from Ben.  I thought it interesting because many people would say that Bandon Dunes, particularly with its bunkering, is the most Scottish of the courses.  And of course it is designed by a Scot.  I understand the view that BD is the lesser of the courses at Bandon, but I don't think it's because it's the most American.

Regarding BT, I hope #14 isn't further altered.  It's one of the most unique holes on the property.  I humbly submit that its detractors are either too enamored with score or don't know when to take their medicine.  

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #322 on: February 24, 2012, 03:03:03 PM »
...
Regarding BT, I hope #14 isn't further altered.  It's one of the most unique holes on the property.  I humbly submit that its detractors are either too enamored with score or don't know when to take their medicine.  

Play match play with a partner. The hole is very likely one where a hole will be won or lost. Once you are out of the hole, concede the hole and move on, and don't worry what final number you might have taken on the hole.

Haven't many of the great holes of the world been very controversial on creation? Why change what may be one of the great match play holes of all time?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #323 on: February 24, 2012, 03:08:51 PM »
Will,

How many times have you played it, and what were your scores?

Kalen,

I probably got in 20 rounds at BT as it was the most accessible course for caddies.  I believe I made only two doubles and remember making birdie twice (including the last time I played it en route to a 73).  I am anywhere from a 3 to 7 handicap (depending on my piss-poor putting) which makes my experiences there seem less pertinent to most arguments here that have argued the hole is unfair for the average player.  And, admittedly, I saw my share of very high numbers as a caddie.  However, I took many poor players through #14 in 5 or less strokes simply by playing the percentages - especially if they missed the left portion of the fairway, in which case you must miss left of the green from where nobody should take more than 3 shots to get down.

Cheers

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...
« Reply #324 on: February 24, 2012, 10:57:21 PM »
Good article by Thomas Dunne:

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/another-bandon-beauty

In addition, Ran Morrissett's writeup mentions that #14 is one of both Mike Keiser and Ben Crenshaw's favorites.  I also remember another article which begins with Crenshaw at the teebox, admiring the hole.

Bandon Trails is so pretty, so nice.  Great place.

+1 Love Trails and great article by a GCAer
It's all about the golf!

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