Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...

[Jim Franklin]

Jim: My comment wasn't directed to Baltimore but simply to point out that he had time to think about what he would say when asked about BT.  BTW: What's up with the Ravens? 

Flacco stinks.

[Dustin Ferrell]

I just got off the phone with my buddy and he was telling me how bad #3 at Old Mac was too. He says that was the worst designed hole he has ever played. He did not like the fact that you had a blind tee shot to a fairway with so many humps. I told him it was only blind the first time you play it. Personally, #3 was one of my favorite holes on the complex.

Why my buddy is a panelist for Golfweek is beyond me. I guess he wants everything in front of him and to never get a bad bounce or uneven lie in the fairway. I guess that sounds like your typical American golfer. WOW!

Wow...specific to no.3 at Old Mac.  I actually didn't love Old Mac as much as the others (although I still love the course), but no. 3 was one of my favorite holes on the course and one of the more memorable for me on the trip.  Just a really cool tee shot, and if you hit a good one....a birdie opportunity into a HUGE green.  Just found it very fun and the blind tee shot enhances that hole if anything.

[John Kirk]

He said there were too many quirky bounces (at Bandon Trails).

I must be fully indoctrinated into the GCA way of thinking.  I don't see any of the four Bandon Dunes courses as being quirky.  There are some lumpy fairways, and greens perched above the fairway level will yield some demoralizing bounces and results, but these features introduce difficulty.

One problem with this statement is the small sample size.  If a rater plays a course and gets four or five memorable "bad bounces", he or she might be tempted to generalize, and say the course yields too many "unfair" bounces.  I think that's a bad way to rate courses, and that's why it's so important to watch every player's shots to develop the largest sample size.

I think the primary difficulty of the 18th fairway at Trails is a large hill in the center of the fairway, which redirects balls hard left and right.  If you land one yard right of this feature, balls get kicked hard to the right, into deep collection bunkers, with no chance of reaching the green in regulation.  During my last round, this was a severe penalty for a half decent fade down the right center.  Not unlucky, just severe.

In general, I've found you don't need a lot of club, even a long iron will do, but you must talk yourself into hitting the tee shot left, over the high spot in the fairway and down the speed slot to short iron distance.  Such a difficult finishing hole.  There are no easy shots here.


Hi Lou,

Thanks for the response.  I had a great time with you that day.  If you remember, Alex Stavrides played great don the stretch, including a 3 at #14.

John

[Will Lozier]

Here's an alternative that I'm sure C&C considered. More forested holes in exchange for less risk in design. Also an epic tee shot on 16 which would make it a slight dogleg and a down and up hole. I'm not sure a change to the course would be for the better, but it's the simplest change that would make 14 and 16 less offensive to those who don't like them.

Could this eliminate the shuttle ride? Would 16 be a better hole? Would the new 13th and 14th be better? The ground over there is fairly flat and I'd imagine would look similar to 9 and 10 once cleared. Food for thought.

Alex, How would this eliminate the "long" walk?...up that same hill?

[Alex Miller]

I'm not saying it would, but it is slightly shorter and a shuttle ride might not be needed. I don't really know. Getting back to the ocean-side of that hill was going to be difficult no matter what.

[Mike Hendren]

One of my favorite memories of time spent with GCA'ers was on the 13th tee at Bandon Trails at this year's KP.  As Mike Benham, Alex Miller, Rich Goodale and I stood there the sun burst through the clouds and the light but steady rain glistened.   Mike casually commented:  "boy my dog would love this meadow." 

I have long loved Bandon Trails, more so than the other wonderful courses at the resort.  It's a tough walk greatly enhanced.

Bogey

[BCrosby]

There is something about BT that got under my skin. I mean that in a good way. It's hard to describe. It didn't happen with the other BD courses, as good as they are.

Bob

[Sven Nilsen]

I LOVE Trails. It is with that statement I present the following. 14 seems to be the high point in criticism, or perhaps controversy about the course. There is a necessity for a shuttle ride from 13 green to 14 tee, and I can see how that could affect many people's opinion on the course.

14 and 15 are not two of the strongest holes in my eyes, but I don't hate them either. I would not blow up the course, nor would I abandon 1,2 and 18 because they are different in scenery than the other holes. By the way, I think 17 is a world class transitionary hole and one of the best holes on the entire property.

Here's an alternative that I'm sure C&C considered. More forested holes in exchange for less risk in design. Also an epic tee shot on 16 which would make it a slight dogleg and a down and up hole. I'm not sure a change to the course would be for the better, but it's the simplest change that would make 14 and 16 less offensive to those who don't like them.

Could this eliminate the shuttle ride? Would 16 be a better hole? Would the new 13th and 14th be better? The ground over there is fairly flat and I'd imagine would look similar to 9 and 10 once cleared. Food for thought.

Alex:

A couple of quick points:

1.  The shuttle was not part of the original plan for the course.  It was added after an unfortunate incident, most likely at the behest of the course's attorneys or insurance providers.  As others have mentioned, its a climb, but the payoff of the view is certainly worth it.
It was to this spot on the property that Keiser took C&C to show them the land he had in mind for their course.  Perhaps this view and the terrain they saw made it a little easier to for C&C to accept a job building a course at Bandon that wasn't on the water.  

2.  14 may be polarizing, but there's a large population that would think Trails to be a lesser course if it wasn't there.  

3.  As for 15, go back and read Ran's review of the course.  I agree with him that 15 is one of the best holes on the course, and the green setting may be the best of the 18.  Even if they ever decide to make some more changes to 14, I'd be very upset if 15 was significantly altered or done away with.

4.  Moving the tee box on 16 to the east completely changes the nature of the hole.  The drive is very interesting from its current angle, as the further you are able to play it up the right the more benefit you receive from the slope.  Someone mentioned playing a soft fade into the hill.  Unless the commentator was a lefty, the play should be a hard shot with a bit of draw to maximize the bounce and roll.  And for those that complain about the walk, you really don't notice the climb if you're in the process of playing the hole correctly and being rewarded for reading the terrain to achieve the best results.

[Alex Miller]

Thanks, Sven. I agree with your points. I was just trying to show that C&C had more options. I, for one, am glad they pushed the envelope a bit and while I haven't tamed 14 yet, I don't dislike it. The tee shot is obviously thrilling, but no matter what direction they routed the course, the tee shot at the top of that hill would have been awesome. Ran hit the nail on the head with what he said in the review

"Perhaps the most merciless hole that Coore & Crenshaw have ever designed, the student of architecture (more so than the golfer!) delights in seeing them push the design envelope with this sliver of a green complex. Especially on a public access course, one might have thought that they could have tempered its severity one way or another."

As for 15, I really love that greensite too, but that doesn't necessarily make it one of the best on the course in my eyes (there are many great ones). I do love the way it is tucked in to that dune and it encourages a run up shot the farther back the pin is on the green.

[Jud_T]

I think one of the big issues with Trails is that it plays like a member's course at a remote resort.  Local knowledge and comfort are quite helpful.  My first trip out I was having the round of my life until I carded an 8 on 14.  It wasn't till my second trip, and third round, that I began to get comfortable with the course and learned to tack my way around successfully.  One can certainly question the concept of such holes at a course that some will only make one pilgrimage to, but not the quality of the holes themselves, at least by this metric.  I'd also venture a guess that a significant portion of Bandon's guests are repeat visitors, and it's exactly this type of challenge that keeps 'em coming back for more...

[Ted Cahill]

I would be interested to get feedback on a "correction" for BT that, I believe would make 14&16 better holes and ideally, leave the player with some gas in his tank to enjoy 17 and tackle 18.

14:  Push the green back 80-100 yds into the low hollow east of the current green.  Players would be able to see the green from the tee- and if they hit a good drive would have a look at the green on the approach.  But if a poor drive is hit, the current green location would create a blind shot into the new green.  The new green location would be level with 15 tee box and be an easy walk.  The beauty of the tee box at 14 would be preserved and 14 would become a decent risk, reward par 4.

16:  Fill in the fairway bunkers (not the one for pulled tee shots- thats a great bunker).  The second shot at this hole is already difficult enough (into the wind, hanging lie)  Too often those conditions create a pushed long iron into those nasty bunkers on the right and the hole becomes a chore.  I think a "bathtub" fairway all the way to the green would be more interesting and linksy.  The fact is, 16 is a connecor hole getting you home and should not present such a difficult, spirt depleting challenge.  17 is a wonderful hole and I sincerely believe it is enjoyed less because it follows a beating on 16. 

You can usually count on me posting alot on BT topics.  I believe it is one of the few, if not only, true Heathland type courses in the USA and a very important course. 

I just believe that parts of it were, in hindsight, poorly considered.  Any of us, when honest with ourselves, make bad decisions in areas where we are experts- even though, at the time, we believe these decisions are sound.  It's not malpractice- just mis judgement.  I think that is the story of a couple holes at Bandon Trails.  Bandon Dunes resort is an incredible resort- the result of amazing foresight and unconventional wisdom.  That streak of good decisions came to an end at 14 and 16- I hope the powers that be eventually just accept that and improve it. 

[John Kirk]

Jud,

I would argue that Old Macdonald requires even more course knowledge than Bandon Trails, and that both require at least a couple rounds before having a good game plan.

[Bill_McBride]

One of my favorite memories of time spent with GCA'ers was on the 13th tee at Bandon Trails at this year's KP.  As Mike Benham, Alex Miller, Rich Goodale and I stood there the sun burst through the clouds and the light but steady rain glistened.   Mike casually commented:  "boy my dog would love this meadow." 

I have long loved Bandon Trails, more so than the other wonderful courses at the resort.  It's a tough walk greatly enhanced.

Bogey

I love the way that deep, deep green side bunker on the right plays with your head and brings the left side fairway bunker into play!

[Dean Stokes]

Jud,

I would argue that Old Macdonald requires even more course knowledge than Bandon Trails, and that both require at least a couple rounds before having a good game plan.

One hundred percent true. BT is a lot more in front of you than OM and the greens/green complexes at BT are a lot less penal. I also think BT has a lot more room off the tee than the other 3 courses - there is so much room from room from trouble left to trouble right.
I will say that in our two groups the 'general concensus' seemed to be that they liked BT the least of all the courses....I get the feeling that as the 4th round in two days, playing in the stiff breeze and mist(light rain)......most of our group was tired and ready for dinner before they got to #14!!!!

[Jud_T]

Jud,

I would argue that Old Macdonald requires even more course knowledge than Bandon Trails, and that both require at least a couple rounds before having a good game plan.

I can't really argue with this as I clearly need a couple more plays on OM to get a clue, hopefully in less than 40mph winds.  I guess I was more prepared for quirk at OM.  Hell it's practically advertised as a course that champions virtues of another era, while one gets lulled into complacency by the beauty at BT only to get bitchslapped after the 14th tee...

[Tim Pitner]

I think one of the big issues with Trails is that it plays like a member's course at a remote resort.  Local knowledge and comfort are quite helpful. 

If you're worried about score, take a caddie.  If you're not, what's the problem?

I'd also venture a guess that a significant portion of Bandon's guests are repeat visitors, and it's exactly this type of challenge that keeps 'em coming back for more...

I think this is exactly right.  

Perhaps something should be done about #18 fairway repelling drives, but I don't understand the motivation to change #14 and #16.  #14 is difficult, really difficult, from some places impossible.  But, almost invariably, the people who take big numbers there took on more than they should have.  If you screw up and can't puzzle a way to the green, pick up.  The issue with #16 for me is that it's no fun uphill and into the wind.  Not much you can do about that.  I agree that ##15 and 17 are great holes.

Just because you don't like a hole doesn't mean it should be changed.  Maybe it's just not your favorite hole.  

[Ken Fry]

Sorry, "quirky" was the chosen word.


He says there is not a course in the top 100 that should have a blind hole or quirky bounces. Wow, Brad has a keeper on his hands. Because Pine Valley has never been called quirky, is his starting point. I would argue that 4 and 8 are blind and somewhat quirky.

Jim,

Just a couple questions about your friend:  How long has he been a Golfweek rater?  How well "traveled" is he regarding the courses and countries he has played in?

Ken

He has been a rater for a little more than a year I believe. He is a low handicapper of around 3 or 4. He has been overseas to play. He has played a fair amount of golf and travels fairly frequently. As Michael said, his opinion is idiotic, but he really isn't an idiot. I just do not happen to agree with his views on Trails or Old Mac.

Thanks Jim.  As Tom mentioned, your buddy can have whatever opinion he wants.  I asked about his playing experience to gain perspective on what he's been exposed to.  Sometimes, certain places just don't click with people but knowing where they've been and what they've seen can help explain.

Ken

[Dean Stokes]

I am amazed that people think #14 is so hard. From the tees we played, #12 and #13 were way harder than #14. #15 is just a great hole that stood over my 2nd shot I felt just like I was hitting into 16 green at Friars Head.....#16 is only tough because you might be tired at that point.....17 is a great hole and 18 did not trouble any of us. Lovely golf course....elevation change. Room off the tee. Not too undulating greens. What did I miss

[Dean Stokes]

ps. all my photos are in a flikr account...how the heck do I post them on these threads!

[Ben Voelker]

I am amazed that people think #14 is so hard. From the tees we played, #12 and #13 were way harder than #14. #15 is just a great hole that stood over my 2nd shot I felt just like I was hitting into 16 green at Friars Head.....#16 is only tough because you might be tired at that point.....17 is a great hole and 18 did not trouble any of us. Lovely golf course....elevation change. Room off the tee. Not too undulating greens. What did I miss

Dean,

Where was the pin on 14 when you played it?  I played BT the day after the USAPL this summer.  14's pin was up front between the bunker and slope.  Based on my one play, with one pin, and pretty fast greens, the hole seemed very Mickey Mouse.  Only a perfect chip from the right would manage to stay on the green (and out of the bunker) and the bunker shot was basically impossible.  I hit both shots more than once.

Granted, on a second play with the same conditions, I would not aim for the pin from either spot and take my 1 to 1.5 stroke penalty...

[Steve Kline]

BT is my favorite at the resort. I love #14 and would be sorely disappointed to see it changed. I have no problem with 16. It is a difficult par 5, but my playing partner in the Mid-Am almost made double eagle there. Love the par 3s. I don't see the big deal with 18 either. I've hit the fairway in all 4 rounds - with little wind and a gale force wind in my face.

[Dean Stokes]

I am amazed that people think #14 is so hard. From the tees we played, #12 and #13 were way harder than #14. #15 is just a great hole that stood over my 2nd shot I felt just like I was hitting into 16 green at Friars Head.....#16 is only tough because you might be tired at that point.....17 is a great hole and 18 did not trouble any of us. Lovely golf course....elevation change. Room off the tee. Not too undulating greens. What did I miss

Dean,

Where was the pin on 14 when you played it?  I played BT the day after the USAPL this summer.  14's pin was up front between the bunker and slope.  Based on my one play, with one pin, and pretty fast greens, the hole seemed very Mickey Mouse.  Only a perfect chip from the right would manage to stay on the green (and out of the bunker) and the bunker shot was basically impossible.  I hit both shots more than once.

Granted, on a second play with the same conditions, I would not aim for the pin from either spot and take my 1 to 1.5 stroke penalty...

The pin was middle of the green. I hit driver down right center and had 85 to the pin. Hit lob wedge 20 ft behind and right of the pin and lipped out for birdie. I still think #13 was a harder hole.

[Carl Rogers]

Does degree of walking difficulty (not just the trek from 13 green to 14 tee, even with the mechanized assist) bring the course down a knotch?  

It was so hard a walk for me in the two rounds last February, it was hard to borderline impossible for me to appreciate the course down the stretch.  That's my real critique of BT.

[Ben Voelker]

I am amazed that people think #14 is so hard. From the tees we played, #12 and #13 were way harder than #14. #15 is just a great hole that stood over my 2nd shot I felt just like I was hitting into 16 green at Friars Head.....#16 is only tough because you might be tired at that point.....17 is a great hole and 18 did not trouble any of us. Lovely golf course....elevation change. Room off the tee. Not too undulating greens. What did I miss

Dean,

Where was the pin on 14 when you played it?  I played BT the day after the USAPL this summer.  14's pin was up front between the bunker and slope.  Based on my one play, with one pin, and pretty fast greens, the hole seemed very Mickey Mouse.  Only a perfect chip from the right would manage to stay on the green (and out of the bunker) and the bunker shot was basically impossible.  I hit both shots more than once.

Granted, on a second play with the same conditions, I would not aim for the pin from either spot and take my 1 to 1.5 stroke penalty...

The pin was middle of the green. I hit driver down right center and had 85 to the pin. Hit lob wedge 20 ft behind and right of the pin and lipped out for birdie. I still think #13 was a harder hole.

Dean,

That's funny because I liked the strategy on 13, but found it very straight forward and not particularly difficult.  14 was maybe an easier birdie, but had the potential for a much higher number.  Of course, I went 4-8 on those two holes, so I guess I would think that!

[David_Elvins]

It was so hard a walk for me in the two rounds last February, it was hard to borderline impossible for me to appreciate the course down the stretch.  That's my real critique of BT.

I know this has been raised before, but how much of the "it's a hard walk" argument is caused by so many people playing it as their second course for the day? 

I didn't think it was particularly hard but have grown up on some courses with decent hills.