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Lou_Duran

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Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2011, 05:14:26 PM »
Richard,

Great.  I'll take yours and Sean's word for it.  I believe it was Dr. MacKenzie who spoke about the importance of maintaining a high level of conditioning on a consistent basis (not manicured, but conditions that enable the course to be played throughtout the year consistent with its design- TE Paul's maintenance meld- an impossiblity perhaps due to weather conditions in many places).  I haven't played Chambers Bay but twice, so I am sure that your impressions are much more accurate than mine.

The problem, if there is one, might be that if the course is financially dependent on visitor play and they do follow an "aggressive sanding schedule" as you say, how many visitors are going to encounter what I did and not look past it?  BTW, I know the difference between a heavy top-dressing and weak grass.  The GM alluded to an unusually cold and wet winter and spring for the conditions.  My thought was that nearly every time I've been to the Seattle area it has been wet and cold.  Might there be a better grass than fescue for the greens given the weather?  I do love the course. 

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2011, 05:46:02 PM »
Lou, I agree that a course that charges over $150/round has no business being anything other than perfect (conditioning). But it is what it is.

This was an unusually cold and wet winter even for perpetually cold and wet Pacific Northwest. That certainly has not helped grass growing, but that is no excuse. They should have bitten the bullet and resodded #1 like they did with #12 and #13 earlier. Since #1 does get more sun than either #12 or #13, I am hoping that the new green will be vibrant and healthy.

I love the fescue and I hope it stays as it is since it is so unique. The fairways are just great, firm as you want with nice brown hue to them during the high season. The greens have had it rougher and I am hoping they will figure it out as they mature more and more. But at least they are rolling true and fast enough during the high season so it is really not affecting play. The course would lose a great deal of character if it ever went away from all fescue playing areas...

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2011, 06:39:58 PM »
Jason:

I think your point is a good one.  I want to be clear.  I have no idea whether the changes to Chambers Bay are good ones or not.  And as I have said, sometimes the USGA has some good changes and I am hopeful in this case. In fact, I think Mike Davis in general does a good job.

My concern is a general one about a golf course and its architect giving control to the USGA to do what they wish to the golf course.  Especially in this economic climate, there is intense pressure on clubs to go after the Open and I cannot blame them for doing so.  I just hope that great and interesting features that some might find quirky are not removed for hospitality or fairness reasons because those features are what I love about many golf courses.  For instance, if the Open were ever at Old MacDonald, i would hate for the USGA to make 1 single change to #7, but would be fearful that they would level out areas on top of the hill by the green to have more collection areas - which I would find tragic.  

I don't know if the USGA has this rule, but it should.  If the architect is alive, he should be consulted on all changes to the course and provided great deference on issues of dispute.  

Michael,

I think your point is a good one in general. I don't believe a course should change for one week to hold a tournament, even if its the Open.

However, Chambers is a bit of a different story since it is so new. RTJ was out there for the Amateur as well and he'll probably be the first one to tell you that they had some concerns about some of the things they were building, and a course is rarely perfect when first built.  If we've learned anything from coming on this website its that great courses evolve. From what I gather,

Chambers would really have a hard time surviving long term if not for the notoriety and publicity that comes with getting an Open, and on a much smaller scale, Amateur.  I believe part of the reason the USGA chose Chambers is because they knew they would have free reign of the place. But I really think Mike Davis is being cautious to the everyday golfer here, and on a whole they will leave Chambers better then they found it.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2011, 07:18:16 PM »

Jason:

Good to hear.

BTW, when I say RTJ, I mean the old man, not II.  I find II's courses to be much more strategic in design than RTJ, whose courses are the example of penal architecture or "straight, fair tests of golf". 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2011, 09:38:59 PM »

 perpetually cold and wet Pacific Northwest.

Welcome back Richard, have not seen you on here in a long time...

You know the Seattle area is colder and wetter than Oregon which is also the Pacific Northwest...sooooo the wet fall weather you are getting is not necessarily being shared in Oregon where Bandon was great this week...lol, love to hassle you, where have you been??? all good with family etc...
It's all about the golf!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2011, 01:59:34 AM »
...
The problem, if there is one, might be that if the course is financially dependent on visitor play and they do follow an "aggressive sanding schedule" as you say, how many visitors are going to encounter what I did and not look past it?  BTW, I know the difference between a heavy top-dressing and weak grass.  The GM alluded to an unusually cold and wet winter and spring for the conditions.  My thought was that nearly every time I've been to the Seattle area it has been wet and cold.  Might there be a better grass than fescue for the greens given the weather?  I do love the course. 

Bandon is dependent on visitor play. The greens at Pacific were atrocious when I was there this year. Never seen anything remotely as bad at Chambers Bay. Also, there is little difference between Seattle and Bandon weather, other than Bandon gets more wind. You think fescue is the wrong choice for Bandon?

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2011, 02:02:34 AM »
...
You know the Seattle area is colder and wetter than Oregon which is also the Pacific Northwest...

Not true.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2011, 08:08:47 AM »

Greens at Pacific Dunes definitely have a Poa problem.  Don't know what they are going to do being a resort either. 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2011, 11:13:39 AM »
...
You know the Seattle area is colder and wetter than Oregon which is also the Pacific Northwest...

Not true.
Thanks Garland, i do want to be truthful.

There is a moderating effect on temps in Seattle, but it's just not true that the PacNorthwest including Oregon is perpetually cold and wet.

Yesterday on Bandon's course cam I watched folks teeoff on #1 in Bandon in shorts and short sleeves...

maybe it is just my perception but,

would it be true that Seattle has less annual days of sun than western Oregon and it's summer high temps don't break 100??
It's all about the golf!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2011, 11:54:24 AM »
...
The problem, if there is one, might be that if the course is financially dependent on visitor play and they do follow an "aggressive sanding schedule" as you say, how many visitors are going to encounter what I did and not look past it?  BTW, I know the difference between a heavy top-dressing and weak grass.  The GM alluded to an unusually cold and wet winter and spring for the conditions.  My thought was that nearly every time I've been to the Seattle area it has been wet and cold.  Might there be a better grass than fescue for the greens given the weather?  I do love the course. 

Bandon is dependent on visitor play. The greens at Pacific were atrocious when I was there this year. Never seen anything remotely as bad at Chambers Bay. Also, there is little difference between Seattle and Bandon weather, other than Bandon gets more wind. You think fescue is the wrong choice for Bandon?



I don't know enough about fescue to have a strong opinion.  I've been to Bandon three times and have played maybe eight rounds on Pacific Dunes, including two this past March.  The greens at PD had problems with poa and were substandard relative to the fees charged by the resort.  However, in comparison to the greens I putted on in the fall of 2008 and the spring of 2011 at Chambers Bay, PD's were much better.  I felt I had a chance to make a few putts at PD; not so at Chambers.

BTW, I don't have much faith in the business model for Bandon long term.  I talk to too many people who though they speak highly of the experience, say that they have made their last trip to Bandon due to a combination of expense, difficulty of travel, weather, and walking-only policy.  Based on what I've heard from locals like Cos regarding Chambers' future, at least its management appears to be adjusting.  Maybe the US Open will help turn the corner financially and agronomically.  Next time I am in Seattle, I will likely make the trip to Tacoma again.  Third time might be a charm.   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2011, 12:02:36 PM »
William,

When you look at Historical averages.

Portland:

http://www.intellicast.com/Local/History.aspx?location=USOR0275

And Seattle:

http://www.intellicast.com/Local/History.aspx?location=USWA0395

...are almost virtually identical in both rainfall and average high and low temps.  The only difference seems to be in those occasional hot days as the record highs in Seattle never gets into the 100s.

Bandon on the other hand gets alot more rain, and the average temps are a lot more stable year round. The average daily high year round only varies by 15 degrees...compared to Seattle and Portland where it varies by 30-35 degrees.

http://www.intellicast.com/Local/History.aspx?location=USOR0023

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2011, 03:09:40 PM »
Here's Bandon's course camera...

http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pages/on_course_cameras/114.php

Does Chambers Bay have an on course camera?

thanks
It's all about the golf!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2011, 10:06:34 PM »
Lou it is interesting that you do not see Bandon as a long term success. It made money the first year it was open which is as rare as rare can get for golf courses. It is a skillfully applied business modal as I have ever seen in golf. I actually see it as Pebble Beach 50 years ago. all he negative you mentioned are real. yet, there are hundreds of courses for those people to play within a few hundred miles of their home all over America. When you are at bandon you know you are somewhere special. I also agree they are starting to push the costs. I would love to spend a week each year there for the rest of my days. I love to meet golfers in the bar there. It is a home for golfers not guys who are on a trip paid for by goldman saks or morgan stanley for meeting revenue goals. Naturally this has nothing to do with Chambers bay or the USGA, lol

Lou_Duran

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Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2011, 01:01:13 AM »
Tiger,

Unlike the creators of Chambers Bay, Keiser is a genius and his cost basis probably gives him considerable wiggle room.  On the operating side, I suspect that golf course maintenance is run lean, though the labor costs for the rest are probably scary.  I doubt that Kemper is cheap.  I have no idea what break-even capacity utilization might be, but each time I've been to Bandon, there appears to be more open times on the courses than previously (it is my understanding that Trails gets relatively little play). 

I can see why Pebble works, though those numbers too are mind boggling.  Bandon is not the same animal and, I think, its potential client base is probably much smaller.  Like you, I would like to spend a week in Bandon every year during the good months, but I just don't feel comfortable spending that kind of money on golf.  When one considers that we are not very typical even among the core group of golfers, I have to wonder what will drive demand for Bandon golf in a future where the sport and the industry may continue to decline.  Perhaps by that time Bandon will be deeded to a charitable foundation and the fee structure adjusted to a lower-profit objective.  Or perhaps my general pessimism is mostly irrational and Bandon will continue to approach the Monterey Peninsula model.   

Jim Nugent

Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2011, 03:49:00 AM »
Lou, I think Bandon's future depends entirely on the economy.  If things get better, Bandon will do fine.  If things get worse, Bandon will lose more and more business.  I know if I were Keiser, I would definitely want a contingency plan. 





 

Anthony Gray

Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2011, 10:50:17 AM »


  If CB was so broken before and needs to be fixed why was it selected in the first place? CB is charming because of its uniqueness and making it more like other US Open venues defeats the purpose of why it was chosen. My third wife went thruogh so many procedures I couldn't recognize her anymore. She liked the shrimp cocktail that comes in that upside down beer glass at CB. They didn"t even have that on my last trip to CB. Don't change what works.

  Anthony

 

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2011, 12:38:18 PM »
Matt Allen the GM at CB knows that CB was largely created anyway...it's not like the course was there waiting to be discovered...it was brilliant by Pierce County to obtain an agreement with the USGA to host a US Open...however, the whole course set-up gig with the USGA is tiresome at best...hope the changes improve the course for us hackers...I'm most interested in #9
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 11:29:57 AM by William Grieve »
It's all about the golf!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2011, 09:54:38 PM »
Lou, the key to this is Pebble 50 years ago. It was a different time under different ownership. It was a golfers place to go. Bandon is a golfers place to go. Times have changed, but there are still very few public access places on earth that are true golfers places. I am one who feels Bandon will always thrive. I do not have a feel for when it becomes too big with too much overhead for its market. I was there in May on a Sunday. The place was far from full. It was also far from empty. these are not good times for anybody but the 1%. Hopefully things will not stay this way for too many more years. And I hope you and I have the opportunity to play there each year too. I am only a summer Bandon guy by the by. It is too far for me to travel with winter, spring and fall weather risk. I have played my rain golf and those days are behind me.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2011, 10:14:18 PM »
Matt Allen the GM at CB knows that CB was largely created anyway...it's not like the course was there waiting to be discovered...it was brilliant by Pierce County to obatin an agreement withe USGA to host a US Open...however, the hwole course set-up gig withe the USGA is tiresome at best...hope the changes improve the course for us hackers...I'm most interested in #9

The course basically follows the contours that were there before the course was built. However, since they were dealing with the leftovers of a rock and sand mine, there was a lot of clearing and cleaning up to do. In the opinions of the hackers of the GRUDGE match, the course suits hackers quite well with it's width and options for playing risk vs. safe. There is no need to improve the course for hackers. It seems someone thinks the course needs to be less random for the top players. Hackers deal with random day in and day out, so the course can have its quirks and not bother us.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay ... and so it begins
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2011, 11:34:36 AM »
The USGA does not like randomness unfortunately...I think that is a mistake on their part...however if CB is firm and fast in June 2015 there should be lots of randomness...the "improvements" by the USGA hopefully will not continue ad infinitum at each and every US Open venue..thanks
It's all about the golf!

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