[Mark Saltzman]

Can we please get rid of them!?

I'm sure there are many examples of this, but I came across an obvious one the other day playing the 15th hole at Arcadia Bluffs (see picture below, it is the bunker near the bottom-right corner of the photo).

From the white and black tees, where this picture is taken from, only really terrible shots will find that bunker (it's about 150 to get over and nowhere near the ideal line of play).  The championship tees are about 70 yards longer and to the right of where this picture is taken from.  I walked back to look and that bunker is just about directly in the line of play from back there and the player must carry it to reach the fairway. 

Clearly, in my mind, this bunker was designed to impact play from the championship tees, not play from the two forward men's sets.

But, tell this to the 25ish handicap I played with on Tuesday.  He hit his worst tee shot of the day into that bunker.  Three hacks later he was still in there, picked up his ball and sat in the cart for the rest of the hole.

Notwithstanding the architect's intent, I am sure more people have found this bunker playing from the forward tees than from the championship tees.  I am sure this is the case with all bunkers of this type.  Surely whatever visual appeal is gained from the back tee view is far outweighed by the impact these bunkers have on the masses playing a forward tee.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

Just to play devils advocate, if this guy found the bunker off the white tee, clearly it is indeed "in play" for these tees not just the championship ones...and perhaps that was indeed the designers intent.

The problem with bunkers like that or any bunker anywhere on the course...is that no matter where you put it, hackers can and will find them.

To me... its a tricky balance at the end of the day of having a feature that is challenging for the +2, yet not kill the 25.

[Dustin Ferrell]

I see what you mean for the high handicapper, and in general I think having a fairly unimposed route to the short grass from forward tees is generally advisable for most holes.  However, I think the 15th is a par 5 correct?  I think the hole is telling the less skilled golfer to go more towards the right side of the hole/fairway, and leave the more challenging route down the left side to the higher risk takers.  If the same type of scenario was present on a par 4, i would find it more detrimental than on a par 5 such as this hole, as a higher handicap should be fine taking 3-4 shots to get around the green.  

Challenging advanced players w/o punishing the higher handicap golfer seems to be a regular issue on "championship" golf layouts.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

To me, that is a very well designed golf hole, whether it is a par 4 or a par 5 is irrelative.
It needs to be pointed out that the average golfer can only carry a drive just less than 190 yards, so the bunker is theoreticallly well placed.
In good golf design, if the tees are properly spaced, the bunkers should be in play for all the tees, and all levels of golfers.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Just to play devils advocate, if this guy found the bunker off the white tee, clearly it is indeed "in play" for these tees not just the championship ones...and perhaps that was indeed the designers intent.

The problem with bunkers like that or any bunker anywhere on the course...is that no matter where you put it, hackers can and will find them.

To me... its a tricky balance at the end of the day of having a feature that is challenging for the +2, yet not kill the 25.

Kalen,

I agree that when it comes to 25 handicaps, bunkers just about anywhere can be in play.  Even, say, placing a very deep and penal bunker 280 yards from the tee one would think shouldn't be in play for a high-handicap, but he may find it often because that is about the area where his second shot will land.

I think the biggest issue for me is that bunkers like the one in the picture will be found by 100 high handicaps for every guy that finds it from the tips.

[Mark Saltzman]

To me, that is a very well designed golf hole, whether it is a par 4 or a par 5 is irrelative.
It needs to be pointed out that the average golfer can only carry a drive just less than 190 yards, so the bunker is theoreticallly well placed.
In good golf design, if the tees are properly spaced, the bunkers should be in play for all the tees, and all levels of golfers.

Dick,

Understood.  I just Google Earthed it and found that it's only 135 yards to get over from the regular men's tee.  Especially given the extremely penal nature (read depth) of that bunker, I find it really hard to believe that the archie's intent was to penalize the high-handicappers.

[Mark Saltzman]

I see what you mean for the high handicapper, and in general I think having a fairly unimposed route to the short grass from forward tees is generally advisable for most holes.  However, I think the 15th is a par 5 correct?  I think the hole is telling the less skilled golfer to go more towards the right side of the hole/fairway, and leave the more challenging route down the left side to the higher risk takers.  If the same type of scenario was present on a par 4, i would find it more detrimental than on a par 5 such as this hole, as a higher handicap should be fine taking 3-4 shots to get around the green.  

Challenging advanced players w/o punishing the higher handicap golfer seems to be a regular issue on "championship" golf layouts.

Dustin,

Welcome to the board.

My issue is that this bunker protects the short route to the fairway.  I agree a HH often will take 4 shots to get to the green, but with a bunker like this one, a bad tee shot played toward the bailout area will mean he is taking a minimum of 5 and a max of X to get to the green.

I have no problem with the two bunkers down the left, actually I like them.

[Pete_Pittock]

It is a foozle bunker. There are innumerable examples of them, like 16 at Ganton and Sleepy Hollow.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

I can certainly understand where you are coming from on this one.  No one likes to be in a foozle/top shot bunker..but given this one is 150-170 yards from the tee, that's more in the poor shot range for the high capper as opposed to the ball that goes 90 yards off the tee.

And given it serves a dual purpose to intimidate the good player who plays from 70-80 yards back, it would seem its not all that bad.

[JC Urbina]

Mark,

" The ideal hole is surely one that affords the greatest pleasure to the greatest number, gives the fullest advantage for accurate play, stimulates players to improve their game and never becomes monotonous" ( Alister Mackenzie )


 Not that your friend would give a crap that day who Mackenzie was.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Its hard to design a golf course for a 25 handicapper. If you do then it will probably be pretty crap to the majority of the better golfers. I think it emphasises the difficulty in 2011 to produce a one size fits all.

[Eric Smith]

I wonder if it is also placed to serve as a deterrent from an errant shot reaching the ladies tee? I don't have any real experience playing couples golf, but would a foursome of two gents and two ladies ride separately, with perhaps the ladies hanging at this ladies tee while the men play from theirs?

[Michael George]

Mark:

I fully understand your point.  However, I don't have a problem with this hole as there is a direct route to the fairway to the right of the bunkers that allows a high handicapper a way to play the hole.  I don't think it is the role of the architect to determine how many shots it takes to get to a green for a high handicapper (ie. it is perfectly acceptable for a high handicapper to hit 3 shots into a par 4), as long as they provide them a route to take.  If this route did not exist, I would agree fully with your point.

[Mark Saltzman]

It seems there is wide-swept disagreement with my point here, but I will give it one last go.

First, I should  say that it seems that some of you are not seeing the bunker I am referring to (you need to scroll right).  Carrying this bunker is the shortest line to the fairway.

Second, I use this example as one of many.  Look at Mr. Bausch's thread on the Trump Bedminster and there are many examples of what I am talking about there as well. 

These bunkers just make so little sense to me. The idea is to provide a challenge to carry from the back tee, often in the 200-250 yard range, with a carry from the regular tee of 150 yards.  My point is two-fold: First, for the player that plays from the regular tees and hits a tee shot of less than 150 yards in the air, is there really any need to penalize him?  At Trump, these bunkers were often placed 200+ yards from the green.  Surely if there was just rough there the player still is unable to reach the green, but is not forced to chip-out making 6 a good score on the hole.  Second, designing bunkers based on play from the championship tees seems ludicrous as there is probably 100 rounds from the members tees for every play from the championship tee.  Furthermore, the % of players finding the bunker from the members tee will be higher than from the championship tee.  A 250 yard carry is nothing more than eye candy for most guys playing the back tee, but a 150 yard carry can be a very real worry for players playing the members tee.

Now, I understand if the hole is designed with the members tee in mind, and I'm sure that is the case in the vast majority of instances.  But, I have seen on many other occassions (and I wish I could think of them right now), where a bunker protects the intended line of play from the back tee, though as stressed above, I presume is found far more by the HH than the + player.

[Michael George]

Mark:

I now see the bunker that you were referring to.  No purpose.  Agree fully.  The is one stupid bunker.

[Matthew Sander]

Mark,

Without having played the course I can't really make a judgement. One thing that I don't think has been pointed out though is just how massively deep that bunker looks. It may be a visually appealing hazard for someone to take on from the back tees, but if a high handicapper puts a mediocre shot in there and still has miles to the green...yikes...am I right?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Without having played the course I can't really make a judgement. One thing that I don't think has been pointed out though is just how massively deep that bunker looks. It may be a visually appealing hazard for someone to take on from the back tees, but if a high handicapper puts a mediocre shot in there and still has miles to the green...yikes...am I right?

Matt,

I fully agree.  I mentioned that in reply #5 above.  The guy I played with hit his tee shot in there and came out with X.  I'm sure he's not the first person to pickup after hitting it into that bunker.

[JC Urbina]

Mark,

If I may,

" This fact knocks on the head  the argument which is often used that the modern expert tries to spoil the pleasure of the player by making courses too difficult. The successful negotiation of difficulties is a source of pleasure to all classes of players"  ( A. Mackenzie )

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,

I once had a pretty deep discussion about this with Jim Colbert, who saw both perspectives.  In the end, I concluded that there is a very bad cost to benefit ratio for bunkers built only to challenge 300 yard plus drives.  Only 0.1% of players hit it that far, and in reality, rumpling up the fw or changing the fw cut line to put them in rough creates the same effect without the cost of building or maintaining a bunker.

[Matthew Petersen]

Mark I see your point generally, but there is a point when bad golfers will simply makes Xs because they are bad golfers. If that bunker had never been built then your playing partner's ball would have been in the weeds and perhaps he wouldn't have even found it.

[RSLivingston_III]

My take is the friend should probably not be on that course. Arcadia is generally fairly easy from the forward tees and if you miss that badly the player should face up to the idea they are not proficient enough to be on the course and should stay with courses of their skill level until they develop their skills.

[Michael George]

My general position on the placement of bunkers is stated above.  I originally thought Mark was talking about the 2 small bunkers that frame the left side of the fairway and thus defended them.  However, after Mark pointed out that it is the big, deep bunker to the right, I quickly agreed with Mark.

Just look at the picture.  Please someone explain to me any rational purpose for that bunker from ANY TEES. 

From the white tees, it is right of a slanting fairway that goes from right to left up the hill.  It is not on the other side of the dogleg fairway trying to stop a deep shot or short of the fairway trying to catch a risky shot.  It is right of and at the beginning of the fairway where I cannot think of one plausible reason for it.  Accordingly, there is absolutely no rational to have this bunker if playing the hole from the white tees. 

From the championship tees, the hole plays more straight and is not as much of a dogleg.  Accordingly, this bunker is at the start of the fairway.  I could understand if the architect made the area short of a fairway waste area (ala Dunes Club and Pine Valley) to require the player to carry a ball 230 yards to get on the fairway.  However, why do you put a big mouth, deep bunker at the FRONT of the fairway.  Left of the fairway - fine.  Middle of the fairway - where a good player would have to pick either right or left of it - fine.  At the front of it, that is the definition of a bad bunker.   

Mark, if you made any mistake in this post, it is that this bunker is not even in a good place for the championship tees.

I generally believe that people complain way to much about the placement of bunkers on a course.  However, this one is definitely as dumb as I have ever seen. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()