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Joe Bausch

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more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« on: October 01, 2011, 07:26:27 AM »
I heard NGLA was jealous b/c of all the discussion PV has been getting here.   ;)

From the July 19, 1908 edition of the NY Herald.  Maybe the bickering will move from the PV thread to this latest on NGLA...

Sorry, but this is a full page article which this site doesn't display well w/o the blue slider bar.  But as an alternative click here for a full size view:

http://oi51.tinypic.com/wwglc3.jpg

« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 01:07:55 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Michael George

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Re: another early NGLA article
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 08:12:49 AM »

Great stuff Joe.

Good luck with the weather this weekend for Crump and Phily Cricket.  Hope all of you guys have a great time.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Mike Cirba

Re: another early NGLA article
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 11:00:29 PM »
Joe,

Like the other 1908 articles posted in the long running NGLA thread, I find it very interesting that Walter Travis was still heavily involved over 2.5 years after course planning was begun.


Tom MacWood

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Re: another early NGLA article
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2011, 06:55:29 AM »
Joe,

Like the other 1908 articles posted in the long running NGLA thread, I find it very interesting that Walter Travis was still heavily involved over 2.5 years after course planning was begun.



I don't believe Travis is mentioned in the written article, but why do you find it so interesting? A NY Daily Tribune article from August 1908 (that Joe posted a while back) mentioned he was involved, he was writing about the course well into 1909 and he played in the first tournament on the course in July 1910.

Mike Cirba

Re: another early NGLA article
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2011, 06:59:59 AM »
Tom,

I find it interesting because his design assistance is barely mentioned in "Scotland's Gift".   In fact, the only mention is that he started the project with him and then says, "I later dropped Travis", or words to that effect, making it sound as though it was short order.

One would never get an understanding that Travis was with the project through basically the entire design and construction phase from that statement, would they?

And as you said, it seems the two men remained close even through the course's opening...aren't they sitting next to each other in the 1910 photo of the course opening informal Invitational tournament?

What happened...any idea why he was written out of the script later?

And aren't you the one a few years back who argued with Patrick that Emmet played a bigger role in the design of NGLA than he was ever given credit for?   Did you learn something new that caused you to change your mind?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 07:22:22 AM by MCirba »

Joe Bausch

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Re: another early NGLA article
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2011, 08:08:54 AM »
What do we know about this fellow mentioned Mort Payne?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re: another early NGLA article
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2011, 01:07:21 PM »
The fine British golfer Harold Hilton liked what he saw at NGLA in Sept, 1911:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

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Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2011, 03:58:13 PM »
Thanks for posting these Joe.  

Mike Cirba,

Where does this article indicate that Travis played a larger role than for which he has been credited

Where does it say he was actively involved in the project throughout the design and construction of the course?

Where does the article say he was still "heavily involved" at the point the article was written?

Are you reading the same article?  Because the body of this one doesn't even mention Travis.  He is mentioned in the caption of a photo as one of six men who were apparently out there at some point in time, but it doesn't say when.  They look to be standing in a meadow with tall grass, not on a golf course, so it it is possible that the photo may have been taken quite some time before the photo was taken.

You seem to be making things up again, with little basis for so doing.
__________________________________

I notice that Travis is not listed among the Founders.   Perhaps he was dropped from the project when he found out that CBM was going to make him pony up just like everyone else?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 04:02:07 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 04:24:01 PM »
March 24, 1906



December 15, 1906



August 10, 1907



August 26, 1907



August 23, 1908



July 1910 – Travis seated next to Macdonald at Informal Invitational Tournament which unofficially "opened" NGLA



1928 – Scotland’s Gift




« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 04:47:43 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 04:52:33 PM »
Why on earth would you clog up Joe's thread?  He was kindly posting NEW, NEVER BEFORE POSTED articles on NGLA.  Yet you bury his posts under the same old tired articles that have been posted dozens of times before?  There is nothing new in those articles you posted, nothing we haven't repeatedly covered.   You were commenting on the above article, the one from the NY Herald, July 19, 1908, and I was asking you about that article and that article only.

Upon reading the first article Joe posted, you  found it "interesting that Walter Travis was still heavily involved over 2.5 years after course planning was begun."   And you draw other stretched inferences is well.  So far as I can tell, THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION adds absolutely nothing to support those inferences.    Unless of course you could see all you infer in a single photo of six men, one of whom was apparently Travis.   

But maybe I misread the article, so I will ask you again . . .

Where does this article indicate that Travis played a larger role than for which he has been credited?

Where does it say he was actively involved in the project throughout the design and construction of the course?

Where does the article say he was still "heavily involved" at the point the article was written?

Other than in the caption of one photo, where does this article even mention Travis?


And don't bother reposting any more articles or rehashing your various theories yet again.  I am specifically asking about the article above and only the article above.   The one from the NY Herald, July 19, 1908.

I have no interest in covering ground we have covered.   I was simply curious what it was about the article above which lead you to your tenuous inferences.    Is there anything at all aside from that photo?  Or were you just making things up again?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2011, 05:07:50 PM »
David,

The photo caption on that article published in 1908 only echoes what the articles I just posted already pointed out...that Travis was involved prior to the site selection, through the design and construction process, and on opening day.    A picture of him in the field with the others laying out the course simply emphasizes his involvement, and the articles document it from 1906 through 1910.

Here is what he said about that design process at course opening;

Suffice it to say that nature has
been exceedingly generous in providing
ground which is admirably suited
in every respect, in contour, quality of
soil and situation, for a really first
class links. Undulating, without being
hilly, a sandy subsoil and contiguity
to salt water, fenced in as it is on
three sides by Bull's Head, Peconic
and Sebonac Bays, the whole lay-out
is as near perfect as can be, and Dame
Nature has been most ably seconded
by the infinite and painstaking care
which has been bestowed on the arrangement
of the holes
, no two of
which are alike, furnishing a most
charming diversity of play.


Travis also gave great credit to CBM for the course, saying it must always be a monument to him.   However, these articles also make clear that CBM has lot of help from many around him, as any good project leader does, and Travis was among the most prominent.

As far as what YOU want to do on this thread, I could really care less.

After reading Joe's new article, I found it remarkable that Travis could have been on the the project that long as reported contemporaneously for years in the newspapers and magazines only to receive the brush-off he got in Scotland's Gift.

Unless you have some insight you'd like to share that describes what may have happened between the two to cause a falling out, I think your posts are simply a waste of time and energy.

If you have any thoughts on Joe's article, feel free to share them with the group here.

Otherwise, bugger off.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 05:11:06 PM by MCirba »

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 05:10:59 PM »
Do you guys ever PLAY golf or just argue the same points over and over and over...........
Mr Hurricane

Mike Cirba

Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2011, 05:15:07 PM »
Jim,

Actually, I just drove several hours to play Saturday, thanks.

I hate arguing here...it makes the site no fun at all.

However, I've been stalked on virtually every post I've made here since my return in April 1910..it's very strange really...I've tried ignoring and I'm at a loss on how to respond but I also refuse to be bullied off the site.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 05:16:47 PM by MCirba »

Alex Lagowitz

Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2011, 05:33:47 PM »
I'm wondering why the first article calls the 17th hole the "perfect bottle hole"...
I have not played the course, but I do know that the current 17th is not a bottle hole.  Is the current 8th a bottle?
That would mean the nines were reversed.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2011, 06:17:48 PM »
Andy,  the nines were initially reversed, although some doubt that the reversed arrangement was meant to be permanent.

Here is a recent thread where this was discussed.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49760.msg1127642.html#msg1127642
_________________________________________________________________  

Jim, I play whenever I can.

As for Mike's growing martyr complex, as usual he is wrong on the facts.  
______________________________________________________

Mike Cirba,  So then it is as I thought.

1. The article does NOT indicate that Travis played a larger role than for which he has been credited.

2. The article does NOT say he was actively involved in the project throughout the design and construction of the course.

3. The article does NOT say he was still "heavily involved" at the point the article was written.

4. Other than in the caption of one photo, fhe article does NOT even mention Travis.

5.  We know no more about Travis' involvement (or lack of involvement) at NGLA than we did before Joe posted the article.


You just assumed the first four items (and more) into the article based on an undated picture, and your desire to promote your conclusions no matter what the facts..  Naturally.  You let your preconceived conclusions drive your understanding of the facts, rather than letting the facts shape your conclusions.  Otherwise, you'd not be able to jump to these conclusions based on nothing but an undated photo of Travis at NGLA.

If you bother to look at actual article, you will notice that Travis is not listed among the Founders.   The others involved in the design process - Whigham, Emmett, even CBM are listed, but no Travis.   Earlier in the process Travis had been listed yet as of this point, he was not listed.  Yet you still contend that he was not only involved at this point, but that he remained involved up through the opening tournament?  You assume he was involved in the opening because Travis, the editor of American Golfer, was at the opening tournament and sat next to CBM in a group photo? Amazing.  

This reminds me of you inferred perfect knowledge to AWT of all of Crump's activities at Pine Valley based on a photo of AWT sitting between Crump and another golfer.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 06:25:55 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Niall C

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Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2011, 01:44:25 PM »
I hesitate to stick my toe into this one but I was reading a Country Life article by H.G.Hutchinson where he refers to the design of the bottle hole and that CBM was having second thoughts on some aspects of the design and was asking advice from abroad with Hutchinson one of those asked. Do we know what he was having second thoughts on and who he might have been consulting with ?

Niall

Mike Cirba

Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2011, 02:04:09 PM »
David,

Would it be fair to say that NGLA was designed between November 1906 and the start of construction in late spring of 1907?   Was Travis involved during that time?

Would it be fair to say that Travis was involved prior, during the planning stages, as evidenced by that March 1906 letter from abroad sent by CBM to Travis?

Would it be fair to say that the course was essentially constructed in the period of late spring 1907 through the summer of 1908?   Does the record show that Travis was involved at that time?

Would it be fair to say that due to agronomic problems on the greens that the opening of NGLA was set back, so instead of opening in two years as they had hoped, instead the first tentative play by CBM and friends was during 1909, followed by an informal Invitational "soft opening" in July 1910?   Did Travis participate in that Opening Day tournament among a small group of top players?

Perhaps you are correct and Travis objected to ponying up cash for membership...I don't know.

But, I do know from the contemporaneous record that Travis was significantly involved in the NGLA project during 1906, 1907, 1908, and played in the Opening Day tournament in summer 1910, photographed seated next to CBM on his right.

You would never know any of that from reading "Scotland's Gift", so my question is simply, why and when did these men have a falling out that led to CBM's terse statement after at least three years of cooperative effort on NGLA, "Eventually I dropped Travis", without any explanation?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 02:07:17 PM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2011, 07:31:47 AM »
Joe,

Mortimer Payne was the man charged with supervising construction of NGLA who came from Shinnecock and served much the same role as Fred Pickering did at Merion.

Which leads to an interesting question...what was his relationship to Seth Raynor on the project?

This article below from August 1908 references Payne and what he had to overcome on the site.


Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2011, 01:59:38 PM »
Jim,

Actually, I just drove several hours to play Saturday, thanks.

I hate arguing here...it makes the site no fun at all.

However, I've been stalked on virtually every post I've made here since my return in April 1910..it's very strange really...I've tried ignoring and I'm at a loss on how to respond but I also refuse to be bullied off the site.

I am glad you had time to play. I will be honest with you, I do not understand what you guys are arguing about. I love NGLA, Pine Valley, and lots of other classics, and it doesn't matter to me whether Macdonald did this, Travis that, Raynor did whatever. I love to play.

And you should not be bullied off the site. When are you coming to Baltimore?
Mr Hurricane

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2011, 02:35:32 PM »
I hesitate to stick my toe into this one but I was reading a Country Life article by H.G.Hutchinson where he refers to the design of the bottle hole and that CBM was having second thoughts on some aspects of the design and was asking advice from abroad with Hutchinson one of those asked. Do we know what he was having second thoughts on and who he might have been consulting with ?

Niall

Niall,

Interesting.  Some of the earliest accounts list the "bottle hole" as the 9th hole (then the 18th) but the 8th (then the 17th) became the bottle hole, so I have long wondered about this.  I'd love to see that article if you still have it and it is not too much trouble.  

As for with whom he may have been consulting, there is quite a long list.  There were reports of CBM seeking advice abroad regarding the holes as early as October of 1906 (right after he had apparently found the land) and Scotland's Gift contains a number of references to advice given by various overseas experts.  His January 1912 Statement to the Founders probably provided a pretty good list of with whom he was conferring.  In the Statement, CBM thanked a number of people who helped in some way or another on the project, whether it be legal advice, design and construction of the clubhouse, the furnishings, or the course itself.   While discussing non-members who contributed, he listed a number of prominent golf me from abroad:

We have also been helped by some of the most eminent men in the game of golf abroad, who have taken a most friendly interest in the undertaking, and I have to thank among these Mr. Horace G. Hutchinson, Mr. John L. Low, Mr. Harold H. Hilton, Mr. J. Sutherland, Mr. W. T. Linskill, the Messrs. Walter and Charles Whigham, Mr. Patrick Murray, Mr. Alexander MacFee, and the late Mr. C. H S. Everard, for the maps, photographs, and suggestions which they have given us.

So it is likely among these men with whom he consulted.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2011, 02:48:03 PM »
While we are on the topic, I might as well copy the rest of the thanks relating directly the creation of the course.   Of the members, he thanked the following:

For aid in the original purchase of the land and in the laying out of the course we must thank Mr. H. J. Whigham and Mr. Devereux Emmet. Since then Mr. James A. Stillman and Mr. Joseph P. Knapp have been most deeply interested in the development of the course, and have expended much time and energy in helping to bring it to perfection. In this connection we must also thank Mr. S. L. Schoonmaker, Mr. Urban H. Broughton, Mr. Howard Page, Mr. Daniel Chauncey and Mr. R. C. Watson for their advice and help in obtaining and developing the accessories of the course.

CBM was profuse in his praise of Raynor, even recommending that he be given lifetime privileges to the clubhouse:

It is but proper, too, that I should say a word of thanks to those outside of our organization who have aided the undertaking. I cannot speak too strongly of the work of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, civil engineer and surveyor, of Southampton. In the purchase of our property, in surveying the same, in his influence with the community on our behalf, and in every respect, his services have been of inestimable value, and I trust that the club will extend to him the courtesies of the clubhouse during his lifetime.

And as I said there were many thanks to those involved in other aspects of the project as well.

A few comments about this.   

First, the statement seems to fly in the face of the image sometimes promulgated here that CBM was an arrogant Ogre who took credit for everything and never gave credit where credit was due.   He may or may not have been an arrogant Ogre, but he was rather profuse in his thanks and praise of others in this instance at least.

Second he makes no mention whatsoever of what (if anything) Travis actually contributed to the project.   This is consistent with Scotland's Gift, where he wrote that while Travis was originally attached to the project, he was dropped from the project and the course was laid out by CBM, Whigham, etc. using the information CBM had obtained abroad.  It is also consistent with the reports that it was CBM and Whigham who first road the land, then went over the land in detail to determine the locations of the holes.

__________________________

I see Mike Cirba has again pronounced that Travis was "significantly involved" throughout the design and construction of the NGLA.   Ironic given his efforts to cut CBM out of all recognition at Merion, despite substantial evidence that CBM was significantly involved from the time he helped chose the land until he chose the final layout plan.   Were Cirba to apply the same standard of proof to Travis at NGLA as he does to CBM at Merion, then he'd have to advocate that CBM's name be added to Merion's scorecard.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2011, 09:40:01 PM »
Mortimer Payne was the constructor of NGLA ....... usually it is listed as 'Mortimer Payne and his team' - the "team" consisting of his mules and his workers.

He continued working on National during the various modifications Charlie made to the course over the years. I have seen and have a lot of the expense records for NGLA for the late teens an twenties

He (and his team) did a lot of the work at Shinney and at Maidstone

one wonders how large or small his team was
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Peter Pallotta

Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2011, 09:57:47 PM »
There's a wonderful essay buried there, George, though probably one that would be hard to write/substantiate because of a lack of records/information, i.e. the men who built the great American courses - Payne and Pickering and the team that worked for Donald Ross etc.  The best of them must've had insight and imagination and skills and commitment, all in the service of building fields of play that, in most cases, they knew they'd never be allowed to play.

Peter   

Mike Cirba

Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2011, 08:02:38 AM »
David,

There's a major difference between CBM at Merion and Travis at NGLA.

Merion recognized and appreciated CBM's advice, as noted in all the contemporaneous reports by the Wilson Brothers, the MCC Minutes (HG Lloyd), Robert Lesley, and Tillinghast's news accounts.

And though the contemporaneous news accounts during the design and construction of NGLA from 1906 through 1908 credited Travis's direct and ongoing involvement in the project, CBM when he wrote his book twenty years later essentially dismissed him.  

Something happened between these men to negatively affect their relationship...do we know what it was?   We know by 1910 the two men still seemed quite close, with Travis writing a glowing review of NGLA and pictured seated next to CBM in the group photo for the Informal Invitation tournament that opened NGLA.

We also know Travis had a falling out with Dev Emmet...was it related?


Jim,

Thanks...I love to play as well, and this constant contentiousness on here and having to defend every word I write about historical matters does get to be a bore.   Would certainly enjoy coming down and playing sometime...love Five Farms and played with David C. a few years back.   Foster's restoration work there is really very good.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 10:46:48 AM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: more early NGLA articles (HH Hilton likes it)
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2011, 04:34:46 PM »
A 1921 letter from Emmet to Travis;


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