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Michael Goldstein

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An insight from China..
« on: September 24, 2011, 10:32:06 PM »
Treehouse,

If you are interested in china golf industry I'm tweeting from the club managers conference now & for the next 2 days. It's a fascinating place and there are intriguing discussions about the government moratorium and future golf development in China.

Apologies if this is poor etiquette -  I will contribute with a fuller post at the end of the day.

Michael
@Pure_Golf

Joel_Stewart

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2011, 05:39:55 PM »
What are they saying about Stone Forest and Shanqin Bay?

Mac Plumart

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 06:58:16 PM »
Michael...

Please post more on here about golf architecture in China.  That seems to be where the action is and we've got too few boots on the ground over there.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 09:19:23 PM »
It is certainly interesting tog et firsthand information on any place in the world where golf is played and courses designed and being built or restored.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 11:35:02 PM »
Michael:

I didn't think to look for you yesterday ... I was getting a quick tour of courses #1 and #3 at Mission Hills before heading to the airport.

Mission Hills did not look busy on a rainy Sunday ... plus or minus 50 players on each course.  A lot of twosomes.

Ryan Farrow

Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 11:46:58 PM »
Tom,

They seem to have been doing shotgun starts during the GM Conference... Rounds have been very slow in the summer but have been getting 500+ rounds on the weekends for the past few weeks. Mission Hills was averaging around 800 on the weekends during the peak season last year.

Rounds come in spurts here, they do a lot of events with big spikes in play and a lot of down time. Brian always compares it to Mission Hills Shenzhen, he used to be the only person in the hotel, now its packed daily.



Enjoying the comedic relief on the Twitter page Michael, I'll give you a call later.

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 01:32:10 PM »
I've had an interesting few days in Haikou.  The sky is really the limit about potential threads for golf club atlas - there is so much going on. 

This is only my second trip to China and I have little background in the industry (asides from playing a few games here and there) so am reluctant to pass too many sweeping comments.

But there are a couple of fantastic articles that have been published on Planet Golf from guys who have been based over here.
I'll link through this one by James Duncan, part of the C&C team that has worked for the last two years at Shanqin Bay. http://www.planetgolf.com.au/index.php?id=1538

Am visiting the course tomorrow and can't wait.

@Pure_Golf

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 05:06:39 PM »
Do golfers walk or ride in China?  ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 05:30:47 PM »
from what I'm told...ride all day. It's humid and a round takes anywhere ~ 6-8 hrs; there are tea houses along the way.

what's more on the future/moratorium though Michael?
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 08:00:50 PM »
For me it is a combination of walking and riding - mainly because tee to green is very difficult.  For most walking off the front of a tee box is never a consideration. (BTW, yesterday seemed insufferably slow but only took 5 hr). 

The weather is humid in the south and it is still very hot.  But China is obviously a huge country so there are more temperate climates.  For example the Yunnan province (where Spring City is located, the new MH branded development and loose talk about upwards of 50 new developments around Fuxian lake).

The moratorium? Who knows.  There is no industry body and so no communication between the industry and the govt.  People have been suggesting November/December/January there will be news.  Golf should have a huge future in China but given the current golfing culture and attitudes to the game I am starting to understand why the government doesn't necessarily agree. Obviously this is a complex discussion worthy of more than three lines of text.  Michael, I will try to link through a thorough article for you to read.

 
@Pure_Golf

Matt Day

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 09:04:14 PM »
I played five rounds at Mission Hills in February. All were carts and caddies.

Pace of play is monitored consistently, the caddies clock in with a time card at the start of play, after nine holes and on completion. The two weekend rounds were five hour jobs, we played the world cup course as a two ball in less than four hours midweek.

The main issue seeemd to be the lack of awareness some had for people behind them, was common for one or two to have a a couple of minutes putting after the completion of the hole.

Michael Goldstein

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2011, 06:49:29 AM »
Shanqin bay - unreal.  Culture shock meets world class GCA.

I'm here now about to scuttle out as a cat4 typhoon is on its way.

The site shows that hard work and passion will have success in China.  More to follow!!!
@Pure_Golf

Mac Plumart

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2011, 09:24:13 PM »
I thought this made some sense to post here...

It is China-based post after all.

http://planetgolfusa.com/index.php?id=1538

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2011, 11:16:52 PM »
Just beautiful

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2011, 11:28:04 PM »
Wow, I read the article the other day, but didn't see any photos with it at that time.  Are those your photos, Michael?  The waves look pretty big, like it was taken the day before the typhoon that just hit Hainan Island on Thursday.  [And there is a second typhoon on its way.]

I have been feeling pretty good about my day at Mulan Bay last week, thinking there was no way Bill had something as dramatic as we will have to work with.  Perhaps I was wrong!  But don't count me out yet.  ;)


Ryan Farrow

Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2011, 12:40:19 AM »
Looks pretty sweet! James Duncan's article is a great read.

One of the new perks of living in Haikou, the course is just a 1 hour train ride away!

Michael,

I was out there early during construction but this looks a lot different, is it wider than it looks? Some areas look pretty tight, also is the native mix playable at all? Again, it looks as though there is a lot more "thick jungle" than native mix.

The native sand thing is not that hard of a sell... considering how far away and how expensive the white stuff is. At Mission Hills we used our capping sand as bunker sand. It all came from the local river and is probably the same stuff that Tom Doak's Island project is made of, just a little screening and washing, and there you have it. Nice, yellow sand. We used it on 5 of our 10 courses at Mission Hills and used a grayish sand on 2/3 courses at Stone Forest.

If anyone is really interested in whats going on in China, Darius Oliver is your man, he's all over the place. I still find it odd how some other "writers" are just ignoring what is going on over here.



Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2011, 01:38:29 PM »
Mac, thanks for referencing that article.

Tom, the typhoon hit the night/day after we were there and it sounded like it hit Hainan pretty badly.  For example the windows blew out at the Mission Hills resort...  I heard plenty about Mulan bay and, after looking at the photographs again, that place could be sensational.  16m of pure sand.  Four golf courses.  And looks like terrain to rival Cypress.   If you stick to your guns, Hainan could seriously become a mecca of the golfing world.

Ryan, Shanqin bay is very wide - particularly compared with other courses in China.  I stood on the first fairway for about 10 minutes talking but also taking in the width.  It's unlike anything of the 40+ courses I have seen here.  Because of the penal nature of missing the fairway there are one or two moments where you feel a little claustrophobic, but generally it's really wide.  That said, the good player will search for the aggressive line and will be far more likely to lose golf balls than the average 12 handicapper.  You are correct that the long stuff is not playable and in it's current form is instantly a lost ball (this might change soon).   

The article referenced is really cool and it was great of James to share it.  Darius has been writing a review which will also be posted soon.

Personally, I've never had more fun walking a golf course. It was awesome to see first hand a course that will have such a sharp impact on the Chinese golf industry.  Shanqin bay is high quality and will be ranked in the world top 100 despite the quirks that James has referenced.  The closing three short par fours are very unusual yet they fit the extreme terrain and the 17th is outstanding.  This hole plays right along the ocean in a natural sand dune yet the architects resisted tempation to bunker it at all and the result is a brilliant rendition of a hole morphed between the 4th at Woodlands and the 7th at Ballybunion - the epitomy of great golf.     

As I eluded to in my earlier post, the project shows that architects can't always hide behind the excuse that the client was difficult - here Bill C spent 120+ days in China on site and the outcome is as clear as day.   



   

@Pure_Golf

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2011, 04:17:39 PM »
I heard plenty about Mulan bay and, after looking at the photographs again, that place could be sensational.  16m of pure sand.  Four golf courses.  And looks like terrain to rival Cypress.   If you stick to your guns, Hainan could seriously become a mecca of the golfing world.

-----    

As I eluded to in my earlier post, the project shows that architects can't always hide behind the excuse that the client was difficult - here Bill C spent 120+ days in China on site and the outcome is as clear as day.   



I think you meant "alluded," Michael ... unless you are trying to fool me!

From whom did you hear about Mulan Bay?  I didn't know anybody really knew much about it; it's so hard to get to right now, I have only been out there 5 days myself.  I think it's going to take a crew full of Rambo types to get it built. 

The project is always in flux, and though they have plans now for three golf courses, and potentially even more down the road, they are only really seriously planning the first course, on the point itself.  I don't know if I will get to design the others, although the client has asked me to be involved in everything out there -- the land plan, the routings for the other golf courses if someone else designs them, the hotels, the clubhouse, everything.  In fact, I just did the siting for the clubhouse and first hotel yesterday, and I have my fingers crossed that they will go with my concept for the hotel, which I haven't seen at another golf course to date.

The elevations range from 45 meters down to beach level, and judging by some of the holes dug nearby for titanium mining, it is sand down way beyond 16 meters.  [In America, when we had a sandy site we sometimes used to say it was "sand all the way to China," and I guess we meant all the way to Mulan Bay!]  The only thing I can think of when I go out there is that it should be Pine Valley by the Sea.  Now I've just got to figure out how to make that work, and withstand the occasional typhoon.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2011, 08:45:59 PM »
What are the current "must plays" in China and what are the big courses in the works?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2011, 09:45:14 PM »
What are the current "must plays" in China and what are the big courses in the works?

There are better qualified people than me to answer the first question.

The answer to the second is easy -- nobody knows!  Nobody knows which projects will be allowed to go ahead, and many developers are keeping their plans under wraps for that very reason.  I was told that no one involved with Mission Hills Haikou would even acknowledge they were building a golf course up there, until a few days before they opened five of them.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2011, 11:15:13 PM »
As I read this post several things come to mind. First is how envious I am of you guys getting to work on such great pieces of land. This is especially so when the clients let you do you job. Second is everything i have ever heard from friends doing business over there fits the discussion. Third is how much crazy money must be there for that kind of money to be spent before you even know you have a project that can open.

Michael Goldstein

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2011, 11:37:23 PM »
Mac, there is a moratorium on building golf courses in China.  So like Tom said many projects are very hush hush.

Must plays: Tiger Beach, Shenzhou West, MH Lavafields and now Shanqin Bay which is the only true 'must-travel-half-way-around-the-world-to-play'. Probably Stone Forrest C too as it is so unique.

Tom, excuse my spelling. I'm going to call tsingtao for my excuse there... I had a good night out in Haikou with Chris who was hugely enthusiastic.   
@Pure_Golf

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2011, 09:12:16 PM »
http://www.planetgolfusa.com/index.php?id=48&region1=Asia&country=China&flags=&designer=&pg100=&page=1

Here is some scoop on some China courses...most of the one's you name on on there Michael.  Some look amazing!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2011, 09:52:54 PM »
Mac What do you think of the Planet course reviews?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insight from China..
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2011, 09:59:06 PM »
On the China reviews, I have no idea.  It is some of the only first hand knowledge pieces I've seen.  So, I'll start here if I want China golf information...I suppose.

On the other reviews, I agree with them for the most part.  For example, here is the Ballyneal review on the site (http://www.planetgolfusa.com/index.php?id=908)...I think he's nailed it.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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