[Niall C]

Just off the course at Old Moray and the tenth hole is a short par 4 off the back tees. The yellows are about 50 yards on and while still a par 4 can be rweached in the right conditions, however if you miss, you're struggling to get your four. Personally I would use this tee as the back tee, call it a par 3 and have a few tees forward of it. If you did that I think you would have one of the best par 3's in Scotland.

Now I imagine there will be a few out there saying what difference does it make whether its a three or a four but to my mind it definitely alters players attitudes. What was humdrum suddenly gets the adrenalin flowing.

Niall

[Ken Moum]

If you have that kind of distance control with your driver, then hats off to you.  My point was limited to the (what I think is a) fact that for most golfers, given a certain level (I guess truly elite players might be exempt), distance on drivers is way more of a variable than distance on any other club.

I geenally agree w/ Andy, aand it's not because I have such exquisite distance control with my driver.  My home course has a par three that is 208 from the "regular" tees, and we play a mens league at match play every Wed. night. Because I am the lowest handicapper on my team at about 10, I end up playing other teams' A player who are often longer and better than me.

Nevertheless, I do very well on that hole, because it's right at the limit of how far my driver goes. In 13 years I only recall going over the green a handful of times.  It has a right-front bunker, and pretty thick rough on both sides of the green, at that distance, even the good players rarely put it on the surface, and Ii am just as adept at getting up and down as they are. The holes they kill me on are between 400 and 500 yards, regardless of par, because they either have a MUCH shorter iron in or they can actually reach them in two. At 500 yards, I am often hitting my third from ~150 yards.

K

[Will MacEwen]

I'm a big fan of par 3s that call for a driver.   My only hole in one ever came on the 216 yard 16th at Stevinson Ranch in the 2005 Kings Putter.   into a brisk wind over a pond.

A couple of months later at Mid Pines, I hit driver to 3" directly behind the hole on the 230 yard hole on the back nine, slightly uphill and semi-blind.  

Did I say I LOVE driver par 3s?  

Bill - I have seen you tee off once and you hit a pub.  On the fly.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm a big fan of par 3s that call for a driver.   My only hole in one ever came on the 216 yard 16th at Stevinson Ranch in the 2005 Kings Putter.   into a brisk wind over a pond.

A couple of months later at Mid Pines, I hit driver to 3" directly behind the hole on the 230 yard hole on the back nine, slightly uphill and semi-blind.  

Did I say I LOVE driver par 3s?  

Bill - I have seen you tee off once and you hit a pub.  On the fly.

And your point would be?

[Will MacEwen]

I'm a big fan of par 3s that call for a driver.   My only hole in one ever came on the 216 yard 16th at Stevinson Ranch in the 2005 Kings Putter.   into a brisk wind over a pond.

A couple of months later at Mid Pines, I hit driver to 3" directly behind the hole on the 230 yard hole on the back nine, slightly uphill and semi-blind.  

Did I say I LOVE driver par 3s?  

Bill - I have seen you tee off once and you hit a pub.  On the fly.

And your point would be?

1.  The flagstick helps you harness your shotmaking and accuracy
2.  That pub is right where the green should be if the hole was a par 3

[Andy Stamm]

Justin,

Certainly if the par 3 is reachable to the long hitter and not the short hitter, that favors the long hitter, just like a par 5. So, I was thinking more of reachable for both, but less than a driver for long hitter.

I think the distance control is the hardest part, by far, so you definitely have a good point there. But, in my mind a good par 3 of this length will not be too exacting/punishing, so there should be room for imperfection. The hole may come down to my having to get up and down from 50 feet and the bomber 40, but if I'm giving up a lot of length, hopefully that plays to my advantage. Especially now, the gap between driver and 3 wood can be quite large, more so for bombers, so that can be an issue. I'd like my chances taking something off a driver compared to someone trying to lean on a 3 wood, for example. And at this distance, all players distance gaps should be fairly big, so everybody's adjusting to various degrees. And if a dinker is to be competitive at a high level he's probably got relatively good distance control even on the driver as he's not hitting it that hard, etc.

At the end of the day, I feel that any hole that makes scoring more of a contest of course management, a long two putt, getting up and down, etc. should help the shorter man as he should be better at this (given that the players are of the same total skill level). But if only one can reach or the shot requires a towering soft shot the short man can't produce, this is all out, and it's obviously in favor of the bomber. (Here I agree very much with Ken's assessment of the situation.)

This is how I feel with regard to my game, but I typically think it's generally applicable. I think you're right that it's different for the truly elite, if you can hit a high 270 2 iron on a dime, you're in much better shape than anybody else hitting driver or any wood. I'd love to see some statistical analysis on this, but I don't know how that'd be possible with existing data.

[Jed Peters]

What about number 12 at Rock Creek?

Pretty fantastic tee box. I thought it played nicely from there.

I hit 4 wood from the standard "I" tee (238), but from the back tee (268) I hit driver high and right, didn't turn it over.

[Mark Chaplin]

17th at Galloway National plays up to 290yds.

[Matthew Petersen]

15 at WeKoPa Saguaro surely is for most players. 255 from the tips and 230 from the next set up. The hole is downhill but only maybe half a club or so. Good hole with the option to go at it if you're really long, plenty of room to lay up short, or run a shot on including a hillside coming in from the right. Huge green.

[Ken Moum]

This is how I feel with regard to my game, but I typically think it's generally applicable. I think you're right that it's different for the truly elite, if you can hit a high 270 2 iron on a dime, you're in much better shape than anybody else hitting driver or any wood. I'd love to see some statistical analysis on this, but I don't know how that'd be possible with existing data.

Maybe... it includes more than par threes, but this chart http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02377 shows score relative to par for approaches from the fairway of over 200 yards with the proviso that the the shot has to end up in the vicinity of the green.  It's pretty clear that long hitters aren't over represented in the stat.

This one http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02377 shows the same stat for 225-250 and it too has a fair number of short hitters in the top ranks.

K

[Andy Stamm]

This is how I feel with regard to my game, but I typically think it's generally applicable. I think you're right that it's different for the truly elite, if you can hit a high 270 2 iron on a dime, you're in much better shape than anybody else hitting driver or any wood. I'd love to see some statistical analysis on this, but I don't know how that'd be possible with existing data.

Maybe... it includes more than par threes, but this chart http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02377 shows score relative to par for approaches from the fairway of over 200 yards with the proviso that the the shot has to end up in the vicinity of the green.  It's pretty clear that long hitters aren't over represented in the stat.

This one http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02377 shows the same stat for 225-250 and it too has a fair number of short hitters in the top ranks.

K

That's very helpful, thanks. I looked at the scoring average on par 3s (http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?142). Now, of course that's not limited to really long par 3s. But par 3s for the tour really represent some of the longest approaches that players hit, mid and long irons are more common than on par 4s for example. Of course, scoring average, distance to the hole, and greens hit in regulation are lowest on par 3s, so short game should really play a big part. This list really seems to favor the short hitter (e.g. Furyk in 3rd, notorious "pea shooter" and 50th in scoring).

I've always thought it was a big misunderstanding that long par 3s hurt the short knocker, at least if we're talking about fairly proficient players.

[Alex Lagowitz]

One that pops straight into my head is 6th at Trump National Bedminister New
Even TFazII said in his description for the pros, its in between driver and 3w.  THE PROS

Another could be at Essex County CC hole 15,
its listed a 255, and even with the downhill, into the wind it can be a driver for the mid-length hitter...it can play anywhere from 225 (not a driver for most) to 270 (driver for most)

[Ron Csigo]

The 13th (Biarritz) hole at Knoll Country Club.  250 yards from the back tee.  Definitely driver when into the fan.

[Will Peterson]

The course that still surprises me to this day is the Ross course at French Lick.  Three of the four par 3's are driver holes.

University Ridge at UW Madison number 17 is also a driver hole, but I despise that one with water short and nowhere to really bail out. It's probably only a driver from the tips, but it's still too long and hard from the other tees.

This hole was changed when they added new tees a few years ago.  It used to be 190ish from the back and 165-180 from the men's tees.  The new tee has completely ruined the hole.  At the old distance, I really like it.  It has a great green for a hole that length.  A front pin would be a short to mid iron and the water was waiting for a slightly mis-hit shot.  If the pin was back it would be a mid to long iron, and it was difficult to get the ball all the way back.  The green's highest point is the middle and it slopes gently to the front and back from that point.  That little bunker on the right was no place to be, but the large mound on the left seemed to push the eye right.  They would also put the tees on the box on the far right from time to time which looked like an easier angle, but I think it brought the water much more into play.

It was a good par 3 before, but not so good now.  If they wanted to change the hole to accommodate today's longer hitters, they should have added one box at 215-220 and left the men's tees where they were.  It was definitely the worst change they made.

[Tom ORourke]

I agree with the 10th at Rolling Green Golf Club. Even a driver may not be enough club for me there. The 15th at Jericho National out in New Hope, PA is 240 from the back, and obviously shorter from the whites. Sometimes I would rather smooth a driver from 220 than hit a hard 3 wood. Both holes are open in front so bouncing it on is an option. These are holes I will not birdie but feel like I can make a par. The 17th at Merion can be stretched way back until I need a driver, but I only carry a ball 220 to 230, so longer guys can still get there with something else. I think this can be a decent idea if you only have one per course, and leave it open in the front.

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