[Jay Flemma]

Kyle, calling new Genesis "progressive" is just pure, weapons grade bolonium!    And heresy to boot.  You are way way way too much of a fan.

And I hope Phish plays Seconds Out one Halloween, even though the rumor is that when they discussed Genesis it was Selling England...

And you are right though - in the UK - the first single was I know What I like - but the 1st top 40 single in the US was "Follow You Follow Me"

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, calling new Genesis "progressive" is just pure, weapons grade bolonium!    And heresy to boot.  You are way way way too much of a fan.

And I hope Phish plays Seconds Out one Halloween, even though the rumor is that when they discussed Genesis it was Selling England...

And you are right though - in the UK - the first single was I know What I like - but the 1st top 40 single in the US was "Follow You Follow Me"

I've explained how I think it's progressive. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean I don't think it is. The process is progressive. Just like certain golf design processes are progressive.

We're on to taste and definitions. No more to discuss.

[Jay Flemma]

New Genesis is about as Progressive ***music*** as sushi is Italian.  When we talk about progressive music we don't talk about the process, we talk about the musical style, and as a Genesis fan you know that.  Dude, I luv ya, but your way too much of a homer.  And however the song was written, "Illegal Alien" was an embarrassment to any true Old Genesis fan.  Put down the Video Box Set and slowly back away...

[Jud_T]

I'm with Jay on this one.  They kinda hung on till Hackett left the band (I saw the Trick of the Tail tour at the Garden).  "And Then There Were Three" heralded the point when 3 accomplished musicians put all their effort into making top 40 radio and video hits, which of course they did quite successfully.  The artistic legacy pretty much left with Gabriel.  His first 3 solo albums crushed anything Genesis did after '77.

[Niall C]

Since when don't the so-called minimalists (ugh) use any sort of special effects or tricks?

Jay, I think you need to research more about the process of both making music (your Genesis comments are laughable and idiotic, for example) and building golf courses before attempting to make sense of these comparisons.

Please Kyle, I was listening to Genesis since close to before you were born.  I remember the release of both Seconds Out and, a few years  afterwards, the first radio single "Follow You Follow me" which ws the beginning of the end of the prog songwriting and the move to pop. You can't say with a straight face that anything Genesis wrote after that was anywhere near as interesting as what they wrote before.  Why do you think it's called Old Genesis and New Genesis

Besides I thought all you hardcore Genesis fans were supposed to hate "New Genesis"

It was the Phil Collins hate fest you spewed that is idiotic. The band began writing as a group again with Duke and honed the sound with Abacab and the Mama album. Your favorite track, "Illegal Alien" is actually a Tony Banks number that came out of a jam - pick up the Video Box Set that was released a few years ago and check out all the documentary footage. Same with "Mama" and "Home By The Sea" and "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" and "Hold On My Heart" and well, you get the point. Prog Bands were Prog because the were progressive and embraced new sounds and technologies. The calibre of songcraft did not diminish with the introduction of new sounds, or would you rather the bands have stuck with the ARP ProSoloist, Mellotron and Farfisa Organ from 1973? How is patching the Prophet 5 through the MIDI input of the Linn Drum Machine to get the pulsating rhythm of Mama (a drum track programmed by Rutherford, by the way) NOT progressive?!

It's the ignorance of the above that really limits this idea. You have no idea, nor really attempt to know the creative process on both ends, which makes the comparisons fall really short. It seems you just took your favorite bands and compared them to your favorite architects, etc - which is fine and dandy, just not terribly insightful.

Oddly, there is probably some substance to this idea. Sticking with the Genesis comparison (a songwriting collective where individual ideas are brought to the table and melded together) or the Yes comparison (A rather strong dictatorship of Jon Anderson and eventually R*ck W*keman) one could probably make some very good comparisons to the creative process of architects in the field.

P.S. The first radio single was actually "I Know What I Like" from Selling England By The Pound.

P.P.S. Save the fallacy of the argument from experience for Mucci.

Kyle

You seem to have learned an awful lot about a band that was completely shite. If getting lost up your own arse was considered progressive then I'm proud to be a retrograde punk. BTW whats with the astericks on Rick Wakeman's name ? Surely you haven't got a grudge against one of the funniest men of the age.

Anyway, which gca would be Status Quo, endlessly banging out the same three cords (to great effect I might add) ?

Niall

[Jay Flemma]

Okay, first things first, please be nice to Kyle, because it is great to have a Genesis fan on here who can play Watcher of the Skies and Return of the Giant Hogweed on keyboards  His loyalty to his band commands respect, though I am just as flabbergasted at his defense of New Genesis as Jud is.  Jud I am impressed, I wish I saw Trick of the Tail tour, that is an excellent album.  Entangled, Ripples, and Mad Man Moon - awesome.

Look, every fan has to know their band's limits.  Phish's was cocaine and pills.  Phish 2.0 was at best a hit-or-miss affair.  Now they are breathing fire again.

I'm  curious what your beef is with Wakeman as well.

And yes, I think Old Genesis is much, much stronger than Yes, and as for my personal tastes, Old Genesis is still by far my fave prog band - even more than Floyd.

And here's Collins himself proving the point -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnkyd01ZEes

telling the crowd at Knebworth "we'll play some new songs"

Crowd - BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

"and the inevitability of some old songs"

Crowd - ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAR!!!!!

Collins - "some you'll like some you wont..."

He was at Knebworth!!  What artist says that too fans at a festival crowd except Phil Collins when talking about Genesis??!!

[Marty Bonnar]

There was always something kinda amusing about watching those Public schoolboys (that's Private School to you Septics) trying to be cool. Seeing the members of Genesis and the Floyd being interviewed is quite surreal. You just KNOW that if either of those bands had failed, the 'chaps' would simply have gone off and either squandered daddy's money on horses and ferraris, snorted themselves into oblivion or married well and still be living the high life in the sodding Cotswolds.
Through the 70s, I LOVED prog rock - still do in many ways, but the excess eventually far outweighed the music and New Wave/Punk was such a breath of fresh(stagnant?) air.
Phil Collins WAS a great child actor - so he's got that going for him...
F.

[Kyle Harris]

Jay:

I think we can reach some common ground.

It's very fine to simply say you prefer the older Genesis to the newer Genesis. However, do let your taste misrepresent the process. The word progressive means keeping on the forefront of the field and making progressive innovations for your sound. THAT is the genre, to me. You could pretty much guarantee that any new Genesis album would feature something new and even innovative like the gated reverb drum sound on Abacab or the MIDI patched drum machines (central to the jamming) on the Mama album. Take a listen to Rutherford and Banks' solo work to see how much they actually contributed to the sound throughout the process. Phil Collins already had a successful solo career - he didn't need Genesis to carry it. (Let's not forget his work with Brand X too). 

As with pretty much any successful artist, they got better and better with their process and the songs naturally got tighter. In short, the band discovered the cutting room floor and what worked and didn't work. To say they fell into writing pop numbers is, at best, myopic.

Really, I believe some of the aversion to newer Genesis is a product of groupthink - much like how many people here can't swallow a golf course by Fazio or whomever. (Our mutual friend Stephen Kay suffers from this as well - if people would understand WHY he makes the choices he does as part of his process, the golf courses become much more enjoyable). Try to avoid the preconceived notion that the later albums sold really well and you'll hear a band that is just as progressive as it was in the 1970s.

I don't understand how fans of progressive rock would expect the bands to continue using the same instruments and sounds album after album. What is so progressive about doing that?

But this is really where the tie in to golf architecture comes full circle. How does the creative process of an architect (or architecture firm) translate and develop from course to course. What changes? What stays the same...

I think Jay, you could make some really insightful comparisons if you were to explore THAT subject much more fully.

Also, any real punk band would just play acoustic sets. Amplification is a form of sound synthesis too.

I find Rick Wakeman to be lacking in both taste and artistic restraint. First one to the minor pentatonic wins! Psssh. He just wasn't very crafty and the sound is too dense and muddy for my ear.

[Sven Nilsen]

Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Christy, take off your robe. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. Sabrina, remove your dress. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Sabrina, why don't you, uh, dance a little. Take the lyrics to Land of Confusion. In this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority. In Too Deep is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as anything I've heard in rock. Christy, get down on your knees so Sabrina can see your asshole. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In the Air Tonight and Against All Odds. Sabrina, don't just stare at it, eat it. But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is Sussudio, a great, great song, a personal favorite.

[Jud_T]

let's see....1st this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwVo27KJ1I

the this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIqf38cbwRo

then this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W35wtfcByIY

then........this? (check out that synth programming!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwXalDEsI7w&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL69BCBAE9F59E799A

[Jay Flemma]

"The word progressive means keeping on the forefront of the field and making progressive innovations for your sound."

No it doesn't!

Progressive rock is defined as "the movement to elevate rock music to new levels of artistic credibility. John Covach, in Contemporary Music Review, says that many thought it would not just "succeed the pop of the 1960s as much as take its rightful place beside the modern classical music of Stravinsky and Bartók."[3] Progressive rock bands pushed "rock's technical and compositional boundaries" by going beyond the standard rock or popular verse-chorus-based song structures. The Oxford Companion to Music states that progressive rock bands "...explored extended musical structures which involved intricate instrumental patterns and textures and often esoteric subject matter."[4] Additionally, the arrangements often incorporated elements drawn from classical, jazz, and later world music. Instrumentals were common, while songs with lyrics were sometimes conceptual, abstract, or based in fantasy. Progressive rock bands sometimes used "concept albums that made unified statements, usually telling an epic story or tackling a grand overarching theme."[2] Progressive rock developed from late 1960s psychedelic rock, as part of a wide-ranging tendency in rock music of this era to draw inspiration from ever more diverse influences. The term was initially applied to the music of bands such as Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and Emerson, Lake & Palmer,[2] reaching its peak of popularity in the mid 1970s."

Kyle you are dead in the water wrong with your definition and are being an apologist for the movement from prog top pop which is unquestionably what happened.  The whole world saw it unfold before their eyes.  Phil Collins sold out and the band went mainstream, abandoning the prog influences of Gabriel completely more and more with each passing year.  They became a dance band/pop act for girls and Euros:)

And the only thing good about Land of Confusion was the funny video.

[Jay Flemma]

Right on, Jud...but please put back the Dancing with a Moonlit Knight and Watcher videos!

Crikey, what passes for fan fanaticism these days:)

Selling England - definitely my fave Genesis album...then Live, Seconds Out, Trick of the Tail, The Lamb (a little too weird for me to listen to all the way through too often, plus I feel bad for poor Rael.  Tough penalty for spray painting!)

Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout!

[Kyle Harris]

Jay:

Outline Gabriel's influence on the band for me, specifically.

Keep in mind Gabriel didn't want the outro to "The Cinema Show" on the album! My all-time favorite Genesis moment - and strictly the Rutherford/Banks/Collins trio to boot! Furthermore, the music for The Lamb almost happened in spite of Gabriel and the band was so locked into his concept they had to pull musical ideas from their early early days for songs like "Lilywhite Lilith," "Anyway," and "Chamber of 32 Doors" just to complete the album.

To wit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf6vMQU837Y (one of the most sought after boots in Genesis history!)

The other great irony is that it was the addition of Collins that added musicianship to the band. He was the one that pushed the rhythmic boundaries and brought in some jazz influence from hanging around the likes of Bruford. For me, the biggest change in the band's sound wasn't from Wind and Wuthering to Duke/Abacab but from Trespass to Foxtrot! Give those early albums another listen and you can hear the jump in musicianship.

Here's an interesting look at what became The Musical Box in 1969 (before Collins), it's quite lovely but you can hear how/why Collins really pushed the band forward with his drumming in this era: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80BOtrPvnpc

As I said a few posts ago, our argument will devolve to one of definition and taste. It has.

Also, which music video beat out "Land of Confusion" for Best Video in 1986?

Jud:

Invisible Touch was lifted from the extended jam that ultimately became Domino. The lyrics were an 11th hour edition. It's not their best, but again, the process by which they came to it was the same. The band DID NOT set out to write a pop song. They got together and jammed. A lot.

Here's the Monkey/Zulu jam that ultimately became Tonight Tonight Tonight. The instrumentation was to 1985 what the Mellotron and ARP ProSoloist were to 1974.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omBJdZVx1yY

Now, as for those sweater.... hideous!

[Jud_T]

either way, Phil Collins probably still has nightmares about Bruford and Muir:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCed47HdRu8

[Kyle Harris]

Jud:

Doubtful.

Here's Bruford sounding completely lost trying to play Phil Collins' drum part in Squonk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BZ9aUqOGeM&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL8E8D7CF4F7CB477A

Shows you that EVERYBODY had their weaknesses.

[Jay Flemma]

Kyle, enough thread-jacking.  Argue Genesis off-list.  Let's get back on point.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, enough thread-jacking.  Argue Genesis off-list.  Let's get back on point.

Jay:

Everyone of my posts but for the last two have attempted to tie this back into the design process of golf courses. You, Sven and Jud have ignored those points. I even lobbed a softball for you to hit with my Stephen Kay comparison.

I will tell you this - the so-called minimalists.... they're using plenty of subtle techniques to hide and hone their craft.

I think your punk movement is really encapsulated by Jim Engh - you can tell where golf course begins and native ends. No time spent tying features into their surrounds. Hard lines which focus the eye. Etc.

[Jay Flemma]

Thank you for your input Kyle.

So, who wants to talk Rush? Kidding! Kidding!

[Jay Flemma]

jay

Come stumble my mirth beaten worker
I'm Jezmund the family berzerker
I'm bought for the price of a flagon of rice
The wind buffs the cabin
You speak of your life
Or more willingly Locust the Lurker

Confuse what you can of the ending
And revise your despise so impending
'Cause I soak on the wrath
That you didn't quite mask
I'm getting it clearly through alternate paths
Or mixed in with the signal you're sending

But who can unlearn all the facts that I've learned
As I sat in their chairs and my synapses burned
And the torture of chalk dust collects on my tongue
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun
All my vasoconstrictors they come slowly undone
Can't I live while I'm young?

But no peace for Jezmund tonight
I plug the distress tube up tight
And watch what I say as it flutters away
And all this emotion is kept harmless at bay
Not to educate somebody's fright


is all I need to know about phish


oh that and the parking lots full of trustafarians sucking down nitrous balloons  asking for a free ticket

Oaky so what about Led Zepp - "In the darkest depths of mordor I found a girl so fair?" (DORK ALERT!!!)

Or Bruce Springsteen -

let me in I wanna be your friend
I want to guard your dreams and visions
Just wrap your legs round these velvet rims
and strap your hands across my engines

That sound like a bad Penthouse Forum letter!  Please..everyone has dumb lyrics..it's rock:)

[David Harshbarger]

Jay,

I've warmed a little to Phish in the two months since this started...for 3 reasons:

1.) The local radio station WEQX regularly plays Phish - and why not, they are both Vermont natives
2.) Same radio station's cool morning host included Phish song in his "all-time 4" for the station's birthday party ("Live While I'm Young" was the refrain.)
3.) Same radio station has been playing a Phish cover of Talking Head's Cities
4.) Same radio station's same morning host played a 1 hour rendition of "Runaway Jim" without interruption during their Saturday morning Jam and Toast show.  I'd listen, stop, run errand, get back in car, listen, stop....and it was the same song!  That was just cool.

I don't know if that makes Phish the Mike DeVries of GCA or not, but hey, that was a lot of cool Phish exposure, and at no extra effort on my behalf!

Dave

[John Kirk]

Bill Coore is the Willie Nelson of golf architecture.

Why?  Because that's some funny shit there, that's why.  We'll let Ben Crenshaw be the Waylon Jennings.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay,

I've warmed a little to Phish in the two months since this started...for 3 reasons:

1.) The local radio station WEQX regularly plays Phish - and why not, they are both Vermont natives
2.) Same radio station's cool morning host included Phish song in his "all-time 4" for the station's birthday party ("Live While I'm Young" was the refrain.)
3.) Same radio station has been playing a Phish cover of Talking Head's Cities
4.) Same radio station's same morning host played a 1 hour rendition of "Runaway Jim" without interruption during their Saturday morning Jam and Toast show.  I'd listen, stop, run errand, get back in car, listen, stop....and it was the same song!  That was just cool.

I don't know if that makes Phish the Mike DeVries of GCA or not, but hey, that was a lot of cool Phish exposure, and at no extra effort on my behalf!

Dave

Can't I live whiule I'm young is "Chalk Dust Torture," the same song Dave Faulkner pans as having stupid lyrics - which it does - but it also rocks like few other songs ever written...

Try this video

http://www.youtube.com/user/HarpuaFSB#p/c/BDF8C3786AB0B3FD/1/x1N5q3H41lE

The 1 hr runaway jims were the problem...they'd get to self indulgent during the drug haze days (daze) of the late 90s/200-2003 era.  Now they rock again.

[Ian Andrew]

I tried a few and gave up, but here’s what I got:
(Rock n roll only)

Mike Strantz – Prince
Herbert Leeds – Muddy Waters
Max Behr – Lou Reed
Herbert Strong – Howlin Wolf
Hugh Wilson – Buddy Holly
 George Crump – Tom Morello
Tom Simpson – Jimmy Hendrix
Old Tom Morris – Chuck Berry
Seth Raynor – Jimmy Page
Donald Ross – Johnny Cash
Charles Blair Macdonald – Robert Plant
Albert Warren Tillinghast – Keith Richards
Harry Shapland Colt – Bob Dylan
Alister MacKenzie – John Lennon

[Jay Flemma]

There's some good stuff there, Ian...I see we agree about the Beatles and Mackenzie.  Prince is too weird to be Strantz.  Do you know he (Prince) never allowed anyone interviewing him to record or take notes?  It was actually brilliant...that way not only could he never be misquoted, but he only allowed the interviewer the ability to gve his/her general impressions of the conversation.

Anyway, Ian, the goal here was to match the cultural zeitgeist/social importance of each act with each designer...not just to superficially see whose music is like whose holes.  You can make an argument that Raynor could be Page, and CXB is Plant - hence the Bloodline is Zepp - and that has serious merit.  I just happen to disagree and feel more strongly that Tillie is Led Zepp while the Bloodline is the Stones...more poeple like the Stones than Led Zepp...is more accessible to a broader range.  But I find solid comparisons on both sides of that coin.  The only one who comes close also to Led Zepp MIGHT be Pete Dye...but in the end I made a more solid case for Dye as Pink Floyd.

Donald Ross - Johnny Cash???  I don't see that at all...I have Ross as far more lyrical, hence Dire Straits.  Emmet - Billy Joel!

[Ian Andrew]

Emmet is Little Richard - that the easiest connection to make of all of them.

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