[Sven Nilsen]

The following quote (all attribution questions aside) appeared in the RJ/Mickelson discussion thread on Geoff Shackleford's site, as linked in another thread.

"The Masters is all about risk and reward, but the US Open is about control."

I have a hard time reconciling this statement with the thought that the US Open (or championship golf in general) is meant to identify the best golfer.

Love to hear thoughts on these queries:

A.  What does it mean to be the "best golfer"?

B.  Is not risk and reward intrinsically linked with control? 

C.  Does this mean all US Open venues should present similar challenges?  This one bugs me, as the idea of having a rota should be to present variety.  If not, then perhaps the USGA should play the event every year on the course that calls for the most control.

The most disturbing thought resulting from taking this quote to its logical conclusion is that the US Open is not about strategy, but rather a steady march from point A to point B to point C.  Forget contours and angles, just keep it out of the bunkers and rough and make sure you hit the middle of the green.

[Adam Clayman]

Sven, In the case of many us opens, hitting it in a bunker can be preferential, if the rough is of a certain ilk.

The masters is not about risk and reward. That Iowa golfer proved that.

Before reading your post, and just answering the title question I feel strongly that the best golfer is only identified through different venues and conditions. These guys that are the best on pin cushions (soft and shaggy) are not the same as those on a F&F lean and mean canvas.

That's why Tiger's performances were so exceptional. Especially after playing on that beautifully baked out canvas at Hoylake.

[Tim Martin]

To me the "best golfer" as pertaining to your original post means the best golfer for that particular week at that particular tournament. Certainly different strategies and skill sets are required to win the U.S. Open versus the Masters. I also struggle with the moniker Best Golfer .

[Philippe Binette]

only one tournament gives the title  "champion golfer of the year"

at muirfield on 2012, it s a sure bet

[Jud_T]

Rees Jones

[Sam Morrow]

To determine the best golfer for a week you need 18 tees and 18 holes.

[Mike_Clayton]

The one event that has done better than any other at identifying the best player is The Open. Wind,firm conditions, minimal reliance in long green grass as a hazard and pressure.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Before reading your post, and just answering the title question I feel strongly that the best golfer is only identified through different venues and conditions. These guys that are the best on pin cushions (soft and shaggy) are not the same as those on a F&F lean and mean canvas.
...

It sounds to me that you are advocating all conditions including soft be used to identify the best golfer. I disagree. I don't think play in soft conditions identifies the best golfer. I think it just bunches the golfers together, so that more have a chance of winning.

I think a mix of styles would be better for identifying the best golfer. That is why I have suggested a test using a mixed venue. Play nine holes of shot testing Dye, and nine holes of strategic risk reward golden age I or II.
If the risk reward were the second 9, you could get more of the excitement that has put the Masters on the map.

[Alex Miller]

I'm the best golfer.

I have more fun than you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

What's needed is a thorough examination of every facet of the/his game.

[Adam Clayman]

Kalen, I'm not limiting the identification to one tournament or one course. Yes, the best golfer each week is the one who scores lowest. But, a full examination requires more time and different venues.  BTW, What's a risk reward nine look like?

[Terry Lavin]

He or she who gets in the least trouble and who holes the most putts. In the pro game this doesn't always require a thorough examination of all aspects of their game but for us mere mortals a great course is one that does exactly that.

[Sean_A]

What is a thorough examination of every facet of the/his game?

Ciao

[Terry Lavin]

What is a thorough examination of every facet of the/his game?

Ciao

  I would say the ability to put the ball in play off the tee fades, draws, and the dreaded straight ball, the ability to play a solid iron game, a solid wedge game, to be a good long and short putter and the ability to be successfully aggressive when necessary, while being able to remain steady when that is what is required.  I'm not sure it's the "every shot in the bag" description of years past, but more having the game and the mental makeup to win under the most critical examination.

[Anthony Gray]

Sven, In the case of many us opens, hitting it in a bunker can be preferential, if the rough is of a certain ilk.

The masters is not about risk and reward. That Iowa golfer proved that.

Before reading your post, and just answering the title question I feel strongly that the best golfer is only identified through different venues and conditions. These guys that are the best on pin cushions (soft and shaggy) are not the same as those on a F&F lean and mean canvas.

That's why Tiger's performances were so exceptional. Especially after playing on that beautifully baked out canvas at Hoylake.

   The Iowa golfer was the exception to the rule and proved nothing.

  Anthony

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bethpage Black with some minor alterations on tee placements comes to mind........
A course that requires accuracy from the tee, makes the player use alot of different clubs during the round and has taxing  but playable putting surfaces..
A course that can be played from any set of the tees and fulfill that criteria.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bethpage Black with some minor alterations on tee placements comes to mind........
A course that requires accuracy from the tee, makes the player use alot of different clubs during the round and has taxing  but playable putting surfaces..
A course that can be played from any set of the tees and fulfill that criteria.

Course A - pinched landing zones with generally smooth fairways, flat greens surrounded by deep bunkers, water in play on many shots.

Course B - wide uneven fairways, greens protected by preferred angles of attack and undulation and well placed bunkers, little to no water hazards, but thick rough that punishes the severe miss.

Course B asks the golfer to not only execute, but to think their way around as well.  Course A may present some choices, but they're most likely going to be questions regarding laying up or playing a club that takes the bunkers out of play.

The penalty for a miss on Course A is either a bunker shot or a drop which is usually played off of fairway quality grass.  The penalty on Course B is a tougher shot, either out of the rough areas, over or around a contour or out of a bunker.

It seems to me that Course B is the better test of golf.  It asks more from the player than Course A by presenting a wider variety of required shots and taxing execution and mental approach. 

[David Harshbarger]

The idea of a "Test" implies that all the test takers face the same questions.  Are the questions:

1 Execute these shots or pay a penalty/play a more difficult recovery
2 Navigate these holes to the best of your ability

Can't there be room for both types of test, T/F and essay?

[Steve Lang]

  and multiple choice?

what did these guys pass and fail and still win?

Past Champions               
Year   Champion   Club   City   State   Entries
1895   Horace Rawlins   Newport G.C.   Newport   R.I.   11
1896   James Foulis   Shinnecock Hills G.C.   Southampton   N.Y.   35
1897   Joe Lloyd   Chicago G.C.   Wheaton   Ill.   35
1898   Fred Herd   Myopia Hunt Club   S. Hamilton   Mass.   49
1899   Willie Smith   Baltimore C.C.   Baltimore   Md.   81
1900   Harry Vardon   Chicago G.C.   Wheaton   Ill.   60
1901   Willie Anderson   Myopia Hunt Club   S. Hamilton   Mass.   60
1902   Laurence Auchterlonie   Garden City G.C.   Garden City   N.Y.   90
1903   Willie Anderson   Baltusrol G.C.   Springfield   N.J.   89
1904   Willie Anderson   Glen View Club   Golf   Ill.   71
1905   Willie Anderson   Myopia Hunt Club   S. Hamilton   Mass.   83
1906   Alex Smith   Onwentsia Club   Lake Forest   Ill.   68
1907   Alex Ross   Philadelphia Cricket C.   Philadelphia   Pa.   82
1908   Fred McLeod   Myopia Hunt Club   S. Hamilton   Mass.   88
1909   George Sargent   Englewood G.C.   Englewood   N.J.   84
1910   Alex Smith   Philadelphia Cricket C.   Philadelphia   Pa.   75
1911   John J. McDermott   Chicago G.C.   Wheaton   Ill.   79
1912   John J. McDermott   C.C. of Buffalo   Buffalo   N.Y.   131
1913   a-Francis Ouimet   The Country Club   Brookline   Mass.   165
1914   Walter Hagen   Midlothian C.C.   Blue Island   Ill.   129
1915   a-Jerome D. Travers   Baltusrol G.C.   Springfield   N.J.   141
1916   a-Charles Evans Jr.   Minikahda Club   Minneapolis   Minn.   94
1917   No Championships - World War I            
1918   No Championships - World War I            
1919   Walter Hagen   Brae Burn C.C.   West Newton   Mass.   142
1920   Edward Ray   Inverness Club   Toledo   Ohio   265
1921   James M. Barnes   Columbia C.C.   Chevy Chase   Md.   262
1922   Gene Sarazen   Skokie C.C.   Glencoe   Ill.   323
1923   a-Robert T. Jones Jr.   Inwood C.C.   Inwood   N.Y.   360
1924   Cyril Walker   Oakland Hills C.C.   Birmingham   Mich.   319
1925   William Macfarlane   Worcester C.C.   Worcester   Mass.   445
1926   a-Robert T. Jones Jr.   Scioto C.C.   Columbus   Ohio   694
1927   Tommy Armour   Oakmont C.C.   Oakmont   Pa.   898
1928   Johnny Farrell   Olympia Fields C.C.   Matteson   Ill.   1064
1929   a-Robert T. Jones Jr.   Winged Foot G.C.   Mamaroneck   N.Y.   1000
1930   a-Robert T. Jones Jr.   Interlachen C.C.   Minneapolis   Minn.   1177
1931   Billy Burke   Inverness Club   Toledo   Ohio   1141
1932   Gene Sarazen   Fresh Meadow C.C.   Flushing   N.Y.   1011
1933   a-John Goodman   North Shore G.C.   Glenview   Ill.   915
1934   Olin Dutra   Merion Cricket C.   Ardmore   Pa.   1063
1935   Sam Parks Jr.   Oakmont C.C.   Oakmont   Pa.   1125
1936   Tony Manero   Baltusrol G.C.   Springfield   N.J.   1277
1937   Ralph Guldahl   Oakland Hills C.C.   Birmingham   Mich.   1402
1938   Ralph Guldahl   Cherry Hills Club   Englewood   Colo.   1223
1939   Byron Nelson   Philadelphia C.C.   West Conshohocken   Pa.   1193
1940   Lawson Little   Canterbury G.C.   Cleveland   Ohio   1161
1941   Craig Wood   Colonial C.C.   Fort Worth   Texas   1048
1942   No Championships - World War II            
1943   No Championships - World War II            
1944   No Championships - World War II            
1945   No Championships - World War II            
1946   Lloyd Mangrum   Canterbury G.C.   Cleveland   Ohio   1175
1947   Lew Worsham   St. Louis C.C.   Clayton   Mo.   1356
1948   Ben Hogan   Riviera C.C.   Los Angeles   Calif.   1411
1949   Cary Middlecoff   Medinah C.C.   Medinah   Ill.   1348
1950   Ben Hogan   Merion G.C.   Ardmore   Pa.   1379
1951   Ben Hogan   Oakland Hills C.C.   Birmingham   Mich.   1511
1952   Julius Boros   Northwood Club   Dallas   Texas   1688
1953   Ben Hogan   Oakmont C.C.   Oakmont   Pa.   1669
1954   Ed Furgol   Baltusrol G.C.   Springfield   N.J.   1928
1955   Jack Fleck   Olympic Club   San Francisco   Calif.   1522
1956   Cary Middlecoff   Oak Hill C.C.   Rochester   N.Y.   1921
1957   Dick Mayer   Inverness Club   Toledo   Ohio   1907
1958   Tommy Bolt   Southern Hills C.C.   Tulsa   Okla.   2132
1959   Bill Casper Jr.   Winged Foot G.C.   Mamaroneck   N.Y.   2385
1960   Arnold Palmer   Cherry Hills C.C.   Englewood   Colo.   2453
1961   Gene Littler   Oakland Hills C.C.   Birmingham   Mich.   2449
1962   Jack Nicklaus   Oakmont C.C.   Oakmont   Pa.   2475
1963   Julius Boros   The Country Club   Brookline   Mass.   2392
1964   Ken Venturi   Congressional C.C.   Washington   D.C.   2341
1965   Gary Player   Bellerive C.C.   St. Louis   Mo.   2271
1966   Bill Casper Jr.   Olympic Club   San Francisco   Calif.   2475
1967   Jack Nicklaus   Baltusrol G.C.   Springfield   N.J.   2651
1968   Lee Trevino   Oak Hill C.C.   Rochester   N.Y.   3007
1969   Orville Moody   Champions G.C.   Houston   Texas   3397
1970   Tony Jacklin   Hazeltine National G.C.   Chaska   Minn.   3605
1971   Lee Trevino   Merion G.C.   Ardmore   Pa.   4279
1972   Jack Nicklaus   Pebble Beach G.L.   Pebble Beach   Calif.   4196
1973   John Miller   Oakmont C.C.   Oakmont   Pa.   3580
1974   Hale Irwin   Winged Foot G.C.   Mamaroneck   N.Y.   3914
1975   Lou Graham   Medinah C.C.   Medinah   Ill.   4214
1976   Jerry Pate   Atlanta Athletic C.   Duluth   Ga.   4436
1977   Hubert Green   Southern Hills C.C.   Tulsa   Okla.   4608
1978   Andy North   Cherry Hills C.C.   Englewood   Colo.   4897
1979   Hale Irwin   Inverness Club   Toledo   Ohio   4853
1980   Jack Nicklaus   Baltusrol G.C.   Springfield   N.J.   4812
1981   David Graham   Merion G.C.   Ardmore   Pa.   4946
1982   Tom Watson   Pebble Beach G.L.   Pebble Beach   Calif.   5255
1983   Larry Nelson   Oakmont C.C.   Oakmont   Pa.   5039
1984   Fuzzy Zoeller   Winged Foot G.C.   Mamaroneck   N.Y.   5195
1985   Andy North   Oakland Hills C.C.   Birmingham   Mich.   5274
1986   Raymond Floyd   Shinnecock Hills G.C.   Southampton   N.Y.   5410
1987   Scott Simpson   The Olympic Club   San Francisco   Calif.   5696
1988   Curtis Strange   The Country Club   Brookline   Mass.   5775
1989   Curtis Strange   Oak Hill C.C.   Rochester   N.Y.   5786
1990   Hale Irwin   Medinah C.C.   Medinah   Ill.   6198
1991   Payne Stewart   Hazeltine National G.C.   Chaska   Minn.   6063
1992   Tom Kite   Pebble Beach G.L.   Pebble Beach   Calif.   6244
1993   Lee Janzen   Baltusrol G.C.   Springfield   N.J.   5905
1994   Ernie Els   Oakmont C.C.   Oakmont   Pa.   6010
1995   Corey Pavin   Shinnecock Hills G.C.   Southampton   N.Y.   6001
1996   Steve Jones   Oakland Hills C.C.   Bloomfield Hills   Mich.   5925
1997   Ernie Els   Congressional C.C.   Bethesda   Md.   7013
1998   Lee Janzen   The Olympic Club   San Francisco   Calif.   7117
1999   Payne Stewart   No. 2 Course at Pinehurst R. & C.C.   Village of Pinehurst   N.C.   7889
2000   Tiger Woods   Pebble Beach G.L.   Pebble Beach   Calif.   8455
2001   Retief Goosen   Southern Hills C.C.   Tulsa   Okla.   8398
2002   Tiger Woods   Bethpage State Park (Black Course)   Farmingdale   N.Y.   8648
2003   Jim Furyk   Olympia Fields C.C.   Olympia Fields   Ill.   7820
2004   Retief Goosen   Shinnecock Hills G.C.   Southampton   N.Y.   8726
2005   Michael Campbell   No. 2 Course at Pinehurst Resort   Village of Pinehurst   N.C.   9048
2006   Geoff Ogilvy   Winged Foot Golf Club   Mamaroneck   N.Y.   8584
2007   Angel Cabrera   Oakmont Country Club   Oakmont   Pa.   8544
2008   Tiger Woods   Torrey Pines Golf Course   San Diego   Calif.   8390
2009   Lucas Glover   Bethpage State Park (Black Course)   Farmingdale   N.Y.   9086
2010   Graeme McDowell   Pebble Beach Golf Links   Pebble Beach   Calif.   9052
2011   Rory McIlroy   Congressional Country Club (Blue Course)   Bethesda   Md.   8300

[Sean_A]

What is a thorough examination of every facet of the/his game?

Ciao

  I would say the ability to put the ball in play off the tee fades, draws, and the dreaded straight ball, the ability to play a solid iron game, a solid wedge game, to be a good long and short putter and the ability to be successfully aggressive when necessary, while being able to remain steady when that is what is required.  I'm not sure it's the "every shot in the bag" description of years past, but more having the game and the mental makeup to win under the most critical examination.

Terry

Your responses are golfer oriented.  What about the course? 

Ciao

[JESII]

I'm confused by this thread and Sean likely hit the nail on why.

How is the answer to the thread title anything other than...the person who gets the ball in the hole quickest???

All the stuff described on this thread is hypothetical driving range blather...sorry




Now, do I believe in a right way to play and a wrong way to play? Absolutely! But playing properly doesn't guarantee you anything.

[JMEvensky]

I'm confused by this thread and Sean likely hit the nail on why.

How is the answer to the thread title anything other than...the person who gets the ball in the hole quickest???

All the stuff described on this thread is hypothetical driving range blather...sorry




Now, do I believe in a right way to play and a wrong way to play? Absolutely! But playing properly doesn't guarantee you anything.

What they said.The "best" golfer will always be defined by the lowest score--irrespective of how he/she got there.

[Shane Wright]

18 holes and 18 tees seems to be the right answer to me.

But if I think back to the last several years of majors, Padraig Harrington's performance to win the Open at Birkdale was a masterpiece in ball striking.  With all the cross winds prevalent that week. anyone with the slightest insecurity in their game was going to get exposed immediately.  And of course, putting in that kind of wind is very difficult. 

As much as I love the Masters, you can get away with some minor swing issues and still come out on top.

You had to be on top of every facet of your game to win that week at Birkdale.

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