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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2011, 01:26:40 PM »
What I meant by saying that you cannot fault Rees Jones is that Cog Hill wanted the US Open and got the guy to do exactly what the USGA would want done to the course.  I am not a big Rees Jones fan.  However, I think that he probably did what he was asked to do re: Cog Hill.
Michael,

He did "exactly what the USGA would want done to the course?"  Then when are they playing the US Open there?

So summing up your argument, Mickelson is disliked by most people associated with the PGA tour and if you disagree it is because of some sort of love for him, players shouldn't criticize a course because Bobby Jones didn't like The Old Course when he first played it and he changed his mind, as a PGA pro you shouldn't criticize a golf course because in essence you are criticizing "the club, the city, the business community and volunteers" associated with the event, Rees Jones gave the Cog Hill exactly what they asked for which also happened to be "exactly what the USGA would want done to the course."

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2011, 03:51:18 PM »

Tim:

I have been involved with a PGA Tour event for fifteen years.  There is no doubt that there is a broad tent as to who hosts an event.  There are over 1,000 volunteers for the event and most give a week's vacation to the tournament - mostly because they realize the impact that an event has on the community.  Most volunteers don't know the difference between Phil Mickelson and Duffy Waldorf.  I have been fortunate to run several committees including player hospitality.  Likewise, the members of the club give up their course for over 2 weeks and put up with a ton of inconveniences due to the importance of the event (club members actually have to buy tickets to come to their club for the tournament).  Also, business leaders buy overpriced suites mostly because of the economic impact of the event to the community.  

I just think that a player that is walking into town for 5 days and being treated like a king and walking out with a big check, should be grateous to his hosts at least in public.  If there are problems with the event or the course, I don't have a problem with the player making them known privately to Finchem.  If they are serious and cannot be corrected, maybe the site loses the event - fine.  But you don't publicly blast the broad group of people that are hosting you for a week.  It is just poor form.    

Most players are exceptionally good people and grateous to the club and volunteers (the european players are exceptionally good to deal with).  Some unfortunately are not.  My statement that most Tour employees dislike Phil is true.  However, I will tell you that he does some good things - like signing autographs for kids longer than any other player.  He just follows it up with demands and actions that are "difficult".  

The last thing I knew the host club for any PGA Tour Event benefits financially in a big way. Additionally the host club`s members get reciprocals at some fine area clubs both before,during and after the event until it is reopened for regular play. When you say that "you don`t blast the broad group of people that are hosting you for a week" according to you that means the corporate and civic leaders,volunteers and club members. I don`t recall Phil Mickelson or any other tour player ever demonizing any one these groups at Cog Hill or anywhere else but by your definition they should all feel personally slighted about comments made about the golf course. Give me a break. For someone that is intimately involved with a PGA Tour event I have to question the wisdom of publicly attacking a marquee player regardless of your personal feelings toward him. As far as the Bobby Jones analogy it`s apples to oranges. At $155 a crack the average player is probably better off for Phil`s comments because they can play one of Cog Hill`s other courses which will be far easier on their wallet as well as their ego. I am a fan of the Jemsek`s and what they have done for the game of golf but I think you miss the mark entirely.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 04:07:49 PM by Tim Martin »

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2011, 04:15:49 PM »


Tim:

I am a nothing volunteer and help sell tickets.  I hardly think I speak for the town, tournament or club.  If I did, I would never say anything as it would hurt the tournament.

Any ciriticism of the course, is criticizing the tournament also.  It devalues the tournament, which hurts all of those involved.

 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2011, 04:39:55 PM »


Tim:

I am a nothing volunteer and help sell tickets.  I hardly think I speak for the town, tournament or club.  If I did, I would never say anything as it would hurt the tournament.

Any ciriticism of the course, is criticizing the tournament also.  It devalues the tournament, which hurts all of those involved.

 

Mike-I am really not interested in sparring any more over this issue. You said you have been involved for 15 years with a PGA Tour Event and that you chaired several committees including Player Relations. That sounds like more than a ticket seller.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #104 on: September 19, 2011, 04:47:35 PM »
Cog Hill benefits only from the publicity.  For years the Jemseks donated the facility as a means of increasing the contribution to the Evans Scholars.  I cannot be sure whether that remains the case but I believe it is still true.

Nonetheless, I think that players should be free to make architectural comments.  This is particularly true because the average fan thinks they are authoritative.  As noted by Shivas, while Phil's comments are somewhat generic, they at least come from a perspective that most of us would support.  But I wish that those who criticize the work could leave the personalities out of the discussion.  Phil comes across as having a vendetta against Rees.  This deflects attention from the substance of the discussion.  Criticism of the Jemseks causes those of us who know and respect them to rise to their defense even if we don't like the changes to the course.  Again the GCA gets lost in the controversy.

This was an exceptional opportunity to focus the public on the issue of "what makes a good golf course?".  But all of the side issues took us away from that issue.  So we get Johny Miller telling the world its a great job because the best ball strikers are leading.  His cheap shot at Mickelson, who he views as, heaven forbid, a scrambler is lost.  No one stops to explain why players and critics don't like the work, not even on the Golf Channel which has all the time in the world to do so.  Perhaps they wouldn't anyway due to their contract with the tour but the ease with which they categorized the criticism and avoided any meaningful discussion was aided by the manner in which the players presented it .

Moreover, some of the criticism was unfounded.  I heard a suggestion that there were too many uneven lies.  Who supports that as appropriate?  Even the greens within greens concept is a good one; it is the execution that may be a problem in this case.

If the players are really interested in the architecture and are not merely interested in what is good for their game, then it behooves them and us to be clear in identifying what we think is wrong and why that harms the course.  That will force the other side to respond in kind.  But that would result in a rationale discussion that might achieve something and who wants that?

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2011, 04:48:15 PM »


Any ciriticism of the course, is criticizing the tournament also.  It devalues the tournament, which hurts all of those involved.

 

Really? You think people are too dumb to distinguish between criticism of a course and its architectural changes -- regardless of their merits -- and the efforts that go into hosting a tournament?


Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2011, 05:26:50 PM »

Phil:  You may be right, especially in Chicago, NY, LA and SF.  However, for smaller markets, the tournament is irrevocably tied to the course.  If the course falls out of favor or gets bad publicity, the tournament can be lost.  Plus, no tournament wants to be known as the "one on that bad course".

Tim:  Trust me, making sure players get their cars for the week and seeing to it that the wives and kids can get rides around the area is not that exciting.  Plus I stopped volunteering a year ago and now only help sell tickets.  I'm a nobody.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2011, 05:32:36 PM »
Nice post, SL.

What's interesting is not only the fact of the complaint but its nature.  If as several have suggested PM is trying to position himself for a career as a name/signature designer, the complaints suggest that a) he's optimistic there'll be work/room at the table for him in the future, i.e. that golf course design and construction will rebound in the US, and b) that the courses to be designed and built will mostly be in the C&C and Hanse etc style/ethos. i.e. that clients will ask for and promote such courses.  Setting everything else aside for a moment, those are two quite striking 'predictions'.

Peter

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #108 on: September 19, 2011, 05:36:00 PM »
So the rule for pros is now say only positive things or say nothing?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2011, 05:41:40 PM »
As usual, Shelly has it about right.  But while I agree that it would be nice if these things didn't get personalized, it seems inevitable.  It is not as if the so called "Open Doctor" has been changing these courses in obscurity.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #110 on: September 19, 2011, 05:50:38 PM »
George:  That is a good point.  I don't know where the line is re: their public comments.  It would make for a worthwhile discussion, of which,based on my experience on this one, I will not comment.  
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2011, 05:56:34 PM »
George:  That is a good point.  I don't know where the line is re: their public comments.  It would make for a worthwhile discussion, of which,based on my experience on this one, I will not comment.  

Mike-I believe that George Pazin was asking a rhetorical question.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Phil Mickelson quandary
« Reply #112 on: September 19, 2011, 09:26:10 PM »
As usual, Shelly has it about right.  But while I agree that it would be nice if these things didn't get personalized, it seems inevitable.  It is not as if the so called "Open Doctor" has been changing these courses in obscurity.  

Yep.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

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