[Tom_Doak]

There's an article in the most recent GOLF WORLD (US) about the PGA Tour's newest statistic, which uses Tour averages from every distance to compute how many strokes above or below average each player is on the greens.

The pros' averages mostly didn't surprise me:  they make 75% from five feet, 50% from just under 8 feet; 25% from 14 feet and 10% from 25 feet.

The number that did surprise me is that from 60 feet, even Tour pros three-putt 24% of the time!

And really, that's what the debate over the design of Old Macdonald is all about.  Nobody minds it if you say they only get down in two from 20 yards 3/4 of the time, but nobody likes to three-putt 24% of the time ... even though it's the SAME statistic, just viewed negatively instead of positively.

The truth is that missing by 60 feet is a bad shot for a good player -- even if he's still on the green.  Shouldn't that result in a bogey more than once in a blue moon?

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

When I was at Pac Dunes and Old Mac (for the preview loop), I found it hard to reconcile a bogey made by a GIR and a 3-putt vs. 3 shots to get on and a two putt.  That's what the argument is all about.  In the end, I was much happier with GIR's--even on the huge greens--than not having a GIR.  3-putting didn't really kill my mood, based mostly on the fact that I can do that from 20 feet at Pac just as easily as from 60 feet at Mac.

I think this is the MAIN reason why score oriented handicap golfers tend to dislike Old Macdonald versus us high handicap beard pulling raters.  

Oh, and yes, I agree that a GIR 60 feet from the pin should result in bogey just as much as a 60 foot miss off the green.

[Jeffrey Stein]

Well put, but the average golfer who gripes about 3 putting at Old Mac just isn't used to hitting a 60 footer that breaks 3 ways in 15-20 mph of wind.  One needs to have some serious lag skills out there.

I've also heard more than once about how much the greens shed balls away at the edges (with the exception of 3, 16, 18) I'd say considering the size of the greens, if you can't come up with the right club to gain the putting surface one should be penalized accordingly.

[Kalen Braley]

I wonder how many greens are setup on the PGATour with faster than normal green speeds and difficult than normal pins which leads that amount of 3 putts?

That is to say, if a PGATour guy visited that same course during a "normal" setup for member play if the number of 3 putts from that same distance wouldn't be significantly better.

Really interesting topic Tom, I've never really thought much about this....

[Michael Moore]

"On a par four, if your ball is on the fringe of the green in two strokes, and you require three more strokes to get into the hole, you might as well have whiffed your tee shot.

The penalty is the same - the loss of one stroke.

If you whiffed your tee shot, you would be embarrassed. But if you take three from the fringe, you are apt to say, 'Well, that's just my game.'"

Harvey Penick

[Mike_Trenham]

Saw and interesting stat about 4 putts on the PGA Tour.  Afraid to state numbers as I don't have the facts but it was likely that more PGA Tour pros had four putted in a given day or round than most club members at a similar sized club would admit. 

Most of us not playing official events pick up after two stokes if not one...  Four putting is not that hard if you insist on putting out and play agressively on each stroke.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - I'm reminded of the 1998 Masters, when Jack Nicklaus finished 6th, at 58 years old, on a soon-to-be-replaced left hip, with a short game that was nothing to write home and in the rain the first two days (such that he was quite short off the tee).  From what I watched and can remember, he managed that finish by playing his approach shots brilliantly - hitting them from the correct spots in the fairway to the correct/safe spots on the greens and, when he missed the greens, missing them in the correct/safe spots.  It was a fine lesson in "Course Management on a Second Shot Golf Course" -- a dying art, I think, especially amongst so-called "good" (i.e. not as good as they think) golfers, who in the last decade have benefitted a lot from the new equipment/technology, and so have gotten used to hitting more greens with shorter irons, and have equated those GIRs with playing good golf.  What they haven't noticed is how rarely they're hitting it to the right part of the green, or missing it in the right place. And one of the reasons (besides ego) that they don't notice is that there are so few courses around that force them to notice, and/or that penalize them when they don't.  I think the old greats (Hogan, Nicklaus, Trevino, Miller) would've been quick to point that out to them.

Peter

PS - I might be confusing this with another stat, but I thought I heard mention on a recent telecast that someone Luke Donald does very well in this regard, while Phil Mickleson (he of the 7 degree driver and 320 bombs and 4 wedges) doesn't.  It's telling I think.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom the green speeds at OLD Mac the day I played made a 60 foot put fell like 100 feet. Also with wind and the firm nature of the greens, a decent shot can end up 60 feet away. The golfer probably thought it was 10 to 20 feet away when he/she hit it. I think that is just a weakness of Old Mac until the greens are just a little faster or about the same pace as the other courses there.

[Michael George]

Tom:

You are entirely correct.  Distance to the hole should be the only criteria.  To illustrate your point, you only have to look at the tournament that no tour player ever criticizes - the Masters.  At Augusta, it is much harder to 2 putt from several spots than to get up and down with a chip.  For instance, on #14, would you rather be chipping from 15 feet behind a back right hole location or putting from the left side of the ridge.  On #16, would you rather be chipping from the bunker short of the green or putting from on top of the ridge behind the green.  

I think some are critical of Old MacDonald because, although modeled after MacDonald holes, it is unlike any place in the US.  1st, the idea of missing a shot by 2 feet and having it be so dramatically effected (see approach on #7) is different - although it was my favorite part of the design.  2nd, the idea of having multiple options over every shot (even putts - where you have multiple lines depending on how you want to use slopes) was certainly new to me.  Much more so than any course at Bandon, I think that you have to play it at least 10-15 times before you realize a lot about the golf course. Unfortunately, being a resort course, it rarely gets that amount of play.   While some holes can be appreciated from the first time you play it - like #3, #7, #16 and #18, I think it takes a couple of rounds to truly appreciate some great holes like #4 and #13 and #14.  I was in Bandon all of last week and loved it, especially the greens.  The stretch of holes from 3-8 and 11-16 are really, really good and I think 18 is the best finisher at the resort.  One thing that I thought was interesting is that most caddies put Old MacDonald last on their list likely  because it is the most difficult on them (and their tips) -due to wind, difficult greens, difficulty.  Unfortunately, caddies impact views of the player and may be doing so in this case.        

[Tom Jefferson]

Jeff Stein;  "Well put.............did you mean to say "Well putt"?  Just kidding, friend!   How is the life away from the ocean?  In the land where you have convinced yourself that you are in "linksland"?  Lotsa empty waves breaking here!

Tiger; Rest assured that the surfaces at Old Mac are 'up to speed'!, i.e., consistent with other resort green speeds.  Truth be told, the real challenge from here into November is keeping the green speeds from getting too fast.

Michael George;  Your comments re: the caddies and their opinions of Old Mac are right on target, IMO. 

[Jeffrey Stein]

Tom,

Great to hear from you.  No we don't have the ocean (which I miss dearly) , but plenty of sand and wind!  Its gonna be good...

[Tom_Doak]

Tom the green speeds at OLD Mac the day I played made a 60 foot put fell like 100 feet. Also with wind and the firm nature of the greens, a decent shot can end up 60 feet away. The golfer probably thought it was 10 to 20 feet away when he/she hit it. I think that is just a weakness of Old Mac until the greens are just a little faster or about the same pace as the other courses there.

Tiger:

I have actually heard a lot more complaints about the greens this year, from good players who have complained that they were TOO FAST given the wind and all the contour.  I don't think it's the same as when you played.

Remember, when the course opened, half of the greens were only 12 months old while the other half were two years ... they were babying all of them a little bit until the newer greens could take the traffic and a lower height of cut.  Starting this spring, they didn't have to worry about that factor, plus they were trying to prepare them for faster speeds for the Public Links Championship.

We are playing out there the end of October, and I am looking forward to playing it under finished conditions.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - I'm reminded of the 1998 Masters, when Jack Nicklaus finished 6th, at 58 years old, on a soon-to-be-replaced left hip, with a short game that was nothing to write home and in the rain the first two days (such that he was quite short off the tee).  From what I watched and can remember, he managed that finish by playing his approach shots brilliantly - hitting them from the correct spots in the fairway to the correct/safe spots on the greens and, when he missed the greens, missing them in the correct/safe spots.  It was a fine lesson in "Course Management on a Second Shot Golf Course" -- a dying art, I think, especially amongst so-called "good" (i.e. not as good as they think) golfers, who in the last decade have benefitted a lot from the new equipment/technology, and so have gotten used to hitting more greens with shorter irons, and have equated those GIRs with playing good golf.  What they haven't noticed is how rarely they're hitting it to the right part of the green, or missing it in the right place. And one of the reasons (besides ego) that they don't notice is that there are so few courses around that force them to notice, and/or that penalize them when they don't.  I think the old greats (Hogan, Nicklaus, Trevino, Miller) would've been quick to point that out to them.

Peter

PS - I might be confusing this with another stat, but I thought I heard mention on a recent telecast that someone Luke Donald does very well in this regard, while Phil Mickleson (he of the 7 degree driver and 320 bombs and 4 wedges) doesn't.  It's telling I think.

Peter:

You should really read the entire article, it's in the September 12 GOLF WORLD, written by David Barrett.

However, since it's not often found on newsstands, I'll report they printed charts of the best and worst putters over the past four years (2008-11) according to the statistics.  Luke Donald was #1 -- he gains 0.869 shots per round putting, over an average Tour player.  Tiger Woods was tenth overall at 0.518 -- two shots better over 72 holes.  [They remarked that Tiger's numbers were slipping, but the average hadn't fallen much because he hasn't posted that many rounds in the last year or two.]  Greg Chalmers, Brian Gay, Aaron Baddeley, Bryce Molder, Carl Pettersson, Brad Faxon, Dean Wilson, and Brent Snedeker were the rest of the top 10. 

Mickelson was right about average among Tour players, at 0.018.  Steve Stricker, Jim Furyk, Geoff Ogilvy and Hunter Mahan were well above average; Dustin Johnson, Bubba Watson, Sergio Garcia, and Ernie Els somewhat below average.  The only guy in the bottom ten who's ever won a major is John Daly, and I'd guess he was a much better putter back then.

Overall, I guess I was fairly amazed how close together the players are grouped.  Only a dozen guys gain an average of two shots on the field over 72 holes with their putting prowess, and even the difference between the best putter on Tour (Donald) and the worst (Joe Durant) is 1.5 shots per round [or six per 72 holes].  Of course, that probably shows that Durant is a hell of a ball striker just to stay out there, and that other guys who are bad putters but not quite as good a ball striker just can't keep their cards.


The article did also note that this large data set does not take into account whether you're 15 feet above the hole on the 7th at Augusta, or 15 feet below the hole on some flat green at the TPC of Podunk, which would certainly make a difference ... it probably drags down the proficiency numbers of the elite players who play more of their schedules on tough greens.  And certainly, Old Macdonald tries to make it matter where you miss ... those sharp edges of the greens make you play more toward the center, which makes you more likely to three-putt.

[George Pazin]

...But if you take three from the fringe, you are apt to say, 'Well, that's just my game.'"

Harvey Penick

At least back then people owned it; now they just blame the architect.

[Jud_T]

I have actually heard a lot more complaints about the greens this year, from good players who have complained that they were TOO FAST given the wind and all the contour.  I don't think it's the same as when you played.

This was the main complaint from our group last month.  Granted we played in some of the strongest, most consistent winds they had all summer, but it did seem like they were running at similar speeds to the Trails, which was very tough given the exposed nature of Old Mac.

[Simon Holt]

Interesting stats and thread Tom.  I don't know the exact stats but Tiger's in 2000 say it all- his putting from inside 12 ft was ridiculous; as you would expect it was directly proportional to the majors he won!

No matter what you, I or whoever thinks- people hate 3 putts- whether they are the same as a duffed tee shot in theory or not.  I DESPISE them. 

I didn't realise that Old Mac was taking some heat over that.  I need to get there soon.

Hope all is well- very windy at RC!!

Simon

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I think you need to consider that most really good players are not used to having only one option from 60 feet and in almost all situations if they are not on the green they would not putt.  I know that guys like myself will usually pull out the putter when they have that choice but the top players don't.  When top players are 60' from the hole they have the skills that allow them to choose how they want to get the ball close and from that distance a putt is rarely the best option.

As an aside, I remember Annika Sorenstam saying that she was surprised that so many of the men will use one club from off the green and just adjust it to whatever type of shot they needed as opposed to say a flop with a lob and a chip with an 8 iron.

[Tom_Doak]

When top players are 60' from the hole they have the skills that allow them to choose how they want to get the ball close and from that distance a putt is rarely the best option.
 

Jerry:

I am not sure these statistics bear out that point of view.  Do you really think pros get down in two from off the green considerably more than 75% of the time?  I know most of them would rather be in sand than rough, and nobody's sand save percentage is higher than 75%.

I think it's a variety of things.  Part is psychological -- as Simon says, good players just hate to three-putt, regardless of the circumstance and the difficulty of the individual situation.  Another part is also psychological -- their expectations are different when they've hit the green than when they've missed it -- if they fail to get up and down, they blame their bogey on their approach shot, not on the design of the green. 

Last, but not least, I know the reason I'm a very good lag putter is because I always pace off the putt and know exactly how far it is.  I'm amazed at how many people want to know the exact yardage from 159 or 160 yards out, and then fail to establish whether they are putting from 50 feet or 55 or 60!  There are occasional putts at Old Mac where you can blame the triple breaks, but it's hard to blame the read if you hit it eight feet past the hole!

[Matt MacIver]

I don't mind huge greens and three-putting.  But I wouldn't like having to make a big shoulder turn or break my wrists to get a putt there on every hole.  And I don't mind chipping from on the green...like at most once a round (but the super should NEVER want me doing it).  I generally want to putt on the putting green.  If I miss the green I LOVE putting with my 3-wood.  But I would never imagine having to putt from the green with my 3-wood.  Do I have to change my view?  Does OM have greens where the "better" play from the green is a 3-wood? 

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I might have been a bit unclear - I believe that from the top player's perspective, they do not view putting as the best option from 60' if they are not on the green.  They feel so confident with their short game that I can't tell you how many times I've seen a tour pro chip from the fringe where I saw it as a no-brainer to putt it.  The simple variable to them of any grass longer than the putting surface convinces them to chip because they spend so much time practicing their short game. 

I was at the US Open with my son and he wanted to get autographs so we spent quite a bit of time in the short game area.  Luke Donald spend at least and hour and a half on the putting green and then spent two hours on his short game before going over to the driving range and then out to play.  BTW: I didn't see him practice any putt over 20 feet.  I believe that if he misses a hole location by 60 feet he doesn't view a putt as his best chance to get it close. 

Here's the factor that we haven't brought into the equation: The top players aren't going to be missing shots into greens by 60 feet that often during a round.  Granted, conditions at Old Mac may make it more likely but still you have to remember that not only do they have to miss but they have to do so on the side of the hole which has 60 feet of green. 

[Tom_Doak]

Jerry:

I'm betting if Luke Donald were about to play a major championship at Old Macdonald, he would focus a lot more practice time on 60-foot putts than at Congressional, where it would be hard to wind up with many of them.

[George Pazin]

I'd be shocked if the entrants to The Open don't spend significant time practicing lag putting in the years it's played at TOC. Heck, sixty feet isn't even that long.

[Jerry Kluger]

It is just so rare an occasion that a pro would be facing a 60' putt that they aren't as proficient as one would expect.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I practice 80-100 ft lag putting about as often as I practice hitting 40 yard bunker shots...and I don't think I'm alone. Give any golfer a steady dose of unfamiliar shots and some are going to complain, and some will relish the challenge.

[Duncan Cheslett]

The truth is that missing by 60 feet is a bad shot for a good player -- even if he's still on the green.  Shouldn't that result in a bogey more than once in a blue moon?

Why not just make the greens smaller, then?

Truth is, from 60' I'd rather use a 7-iron than a putter regardless of whether I'm on the green or not! There's not much chance of finding a 60' putt anywhere on my course, though...

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()