Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Roger,

$14 for a cart fee is a relative bargain. Most private clubs in the Philly are in the $25-30pp range!

[Mark Johnson]

Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion.  Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money.  Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy.  I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.

I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory.  Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge.  The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.”  We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes).  Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member.  Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.

Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.

I cannot understand why noone has tried this out.  I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user).  It’s something to think about! 

I agree with the idea.   One of my biggest complaints as a private club members is being nickle and dimed.   Sometime my monthly bills can be 2 pages long and it isnt all dining charges.  I would like the idea of just having one bill a year, but due to cash flow, I can only name 3 or 4 clubs that due this and they all have initiation fees of 75k or more.

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion.  Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money.  Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy.  I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.

I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory.  Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge.  The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.”  We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes).  Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member.  Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.

Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.

I cannot understand why noone has tried this out.  I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user).  It’s something to think about! 

Roger,

You will unfortunately need to charge a higher fee because cart usage will go up once it is "free".  Kind of like the number of tees a club has to buy when they "give" them away compared to charging 50 cents a bag.

[Carl Nichols]

Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion.  Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money.  Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy.  I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.

I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory.  Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge.  The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.”  We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes).  Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member.  Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.

Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.

I cannot understand why noone has tried this out.  I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user).  It’s something to think about! 

Roger,

You will unfortunately need to charge a higher fee because cart usage will go up once it is "free".  Kind of like the number of tees a club has to buy when they "give" them away compared to charging 50 cents a bag.

Agreed. But Roger is just trying to duplicate his current revenue stream at that number.  I wonder what the annual costs of having that level of cart usage are (ie, what part of the 150k covers costs, rather than is net to the club). In any event, i suspect that the incremental cost of each additional round is pretty low.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

So $14 is all it takes to betray the game you intend playing.

As little as $14 but then I suppose they are keeping the game of golf alive, well that is after destroying the heart and soul of the game.

From memory the real cost should be 30 pieces of silver or pay for the pleasure of riding by first undergoing a frontal lobotomy. Actually any able bodied golfer who rides must have already gone through that procedure to even consider riding.

Golf is not a riding sport, it, like the courses are set up for walking. Yet I am reminded of the following quote ”Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” when what we should be hearing is “Get Thee Behind Me Satan” However ignorance is not an excuse acceptable by the Law nor should we accept it too as $14 for Satan Buggy may lead to dark places.

Melvyn

[Mike_Clayton]

Everybody uses then in Australia and can't imagine what the fuss is about.
In Germany they now have titanium buggies/trolleys with small lithium batteries selling for $5000!!

[Bruce Hardie]

Everybody uses then in Australia and can't imagine what the fuss is about.

I have no frame of reference for this discussion having never played outside Australia where even a resort will, at worst, raise its' eyebrows if you plan to walk. I think even the dearly departed Kooralbyn Valley rated driving a cart as "highly recommended" given the length of some of the traverses between holes, but not compulsory.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike and others not from the US,

If you are not familiar with the golfing culture in the US in private clubs, then why comment? The fuss is about revenue, status and the possible elimination of excellent caddie programs. See my posts above. We all know about the use of pull/push carts or trollies in the rest of the world. They are indeed used here in most public access courses.

[Mike_Clayton]

Bruce,
Certainly that is true in Queensland. We walked Kooralbyn when we played tournaments there - but it was a bad walking course.

[Mike_Clayton]

Steve,

Why can't caddies use them? It is easier for caddies to carry but smaller kids could caddy if they could use one.
They are not the reason there are no caddies in Australia - and it is just difficult to understand the status thing.
I understand it but its odd to anyone from the outside.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

I don't know of any private clubs in the Philadelphia area where caddies use trollies.

As far as status goes, at Merion,it is my understanding that on the East one must use a caddie or walk and carry their own bag only after a certain time.Trollies or gas/electric cars are not available on East. On the West,the rental trollies can be used without restriction.If I'm wrong on this, will someone advise.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Slightly tangential - When I was first introduced to the game one of the perks of living at the club (parents were Steward, Stewardess) was that I got to make a little cash caddying. I was club pro Leo's regular caddy for a couple of years, which meant - putting the  Dunlop staff bag on the trolley and pulling it, keeping the clubs clean, pacing off yardages and clubbing Leo. It was a great education. But I will never forget the first tournament I caddied. No trolleys allowed! Or at least it wasn't done for a pro's caddy to pull. Man, those 70's bags were heavy! I must have looked like some Dickensian urchin by the end.

[Ed Brzezowski]

You can do Merion in a cart with a med cert. Did it once, was like chewing gum in church. I was waiting for an old nun to whack me on the head.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Welcome Ed, so you have posted your first comments, nearly as bad as Teeing off on the 1st at TOC, only difference being the guys here are not into golf as those watching you on TOC. 

Say what you feel, don't hold back, it's the only way

Again welcome

Melvyn

[Ed Brzezowski]

Thank you for your nice note, played TOC in July for the fourth time. That tee shot and Merions first are like sandpapering your fingertips. I hope i can add something to this group,I do some course rating and a lot of traveling so I have seen some good and bad designs. Very pleased to join your group.

[Lou_Duran]

Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion.  Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money.  Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy.  I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.

I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory.  Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge.  The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.”  We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes).  Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member.  Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.

Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.

I cannot understand why noone has tried this out.  I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user).  It’s something to think about!  

Roger,

You will unfortunately need to charge a higher fee because cart usage will go up once it is "free".  Kind of like the number of tees a club has to buy when they "give" them away compared to charging 50 cents a bag.

One of the indisputable facts of life with near infinite applications.  Of course, just like with universal healthcare, the only feasible way to limit costs is to curtail the supply through rationing.  It would be interesting to see how a limited number of carts get distributed among a membership entitled to ride by virtue of having paid the monthly dues.  And why not also include golf balls and F & B in the one-price buffet?

On the revenue side, like any tax, increase the dues and you're likely to have fewer members (reference most vice taxes, e.g. tobacco).  It becomes like any other pricing decision on a consumer product- will the increase in the price and the lower cost of operations more than offset the loss in volume (Netflix apparently thought it would).

At a well-known club in Austin which allows pull carts, the outside operations guy hated them because of the amount of work to maintain the fleet (had nothing but bad things to say about the Sun Mountain model) and the loss in riding cart revenues.  At another near Dallas, the director of golf told me that he is tasked by his management to "grow the game".  He is currently testing couple different pull cart types and says that he is not worried about losing riding revenues.  Both of his courses are not easy walks and I suspect that having pull carts available won't make a big dent on riding cart usage.

Pace of play issues will continue to plague walkers at least at private courses in the Southwest.  There is absolutely no way that I can get around hoofing it or pulling a cart in nearly the amount of time that I can riding.  To the extent that time is a factor in the popularity of the game, push carts may be counterproductive.

Brent,

There are pricing models that might work, but I don't believe that charging people for products or services they don't want is a viable one.  The nature of the charges as well as whether they're perceived as "fair" have a bearing.  I'd rather not belong to a club which totals up the bill and then divides by the total number of members for very obvious reasons.  Riding just like buying golf balls, equipment, F & B should be be a la carte.  The pricing should reflect their costs as well as all other economic/business reasons.      

[Carl Johnson]

Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion.  Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money.  Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy.  I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.

I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory.  Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge.  The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.”  We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes).  Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member.  Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.

Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.

I cannot understand why noone has tried this out.  I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user).  It’s something to think about!  

Roger,

You will unfortunately need to charge a higher fee because cart usage will go up once it is "free".  Kind of like the number of tees a club has to buy when they "give" them away compared to charging 50 cents a bag.

Allow me to chime in, as a member of Roger's club.  John, your point is clear, yet I'm not real sure that usage would go up significantly.  We've got walkers and riders.  The course is very walkable.  The guys and gals who like to walk, walk, while those who don't, the riders, pay their $15.00 [$13.99 + $1.01 tax] per round and ride.  The walkers, at least the ones I know, mostly older members, are still going to walk even if the cart usage is "free."  We have a bit of a walking culture.  On the other hand, I'm not real sure if the walkers would want to pay an additional $300 per year to subsidize the riders, which is the way they would look at it.  For me, personally, I'll always walk if and when permitted (as long as I remain fit and healthy enough), unless it's too darn hot, and then I'll rent a cart.  Personally, I think I'd probably lose a few bucks on the $25/month dues increase, but not enough to make a difference.

On the revenue side, maybe Roger will chime in on the $150K -- is that gross or net, and as others have asked, how would projected incremental increases in cart usage, at different levels, as a result of building the expense into dues affect (1) the bottom line "profit" to the club and (2) the attractiveness of the club to its members, which would ultimately have an impact on the health of the club as a whole?

[Ken Moum]

Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion.  Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money.  Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy.  I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.

I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory.  Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge.  The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.”  We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes).  Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member.  Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.

Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.

I cannot understand why noone has tried this out.  I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user).  It’s something to think about! 

They bring in $150K, but that's gross…
What is the annual cost of cart replacement/depreciation, cart path installation/repair, cart barn, cart maintenance, cart power (electricity/gas), cart staff, turf repair, etc., etc.?
I'm betting that it's not as big a number as some people think.  But who is going to pay for the study that proves carts aren't really a huge economic boon for golf courses, Club Car?  The USGA? GCSAA?
I don't think it's coming any time soon.

[Sean_A]

Ken

I think you are correct.  A significant percentage of cart support costs are buried in build, labour and utilities costings.  Its a very odd thing for clubs (essentially non-profit entities) to see carts as REVENUE sources yet not carry on the full the business costings. 

To my way of thinking, the American model of this, that and the other depending on where the sun in the sky is or if there is a stranger standing around wearing a bib, is just far too complicated.  If a caddie program is great it will survive carts and trollies.  If folks want to ride, fine, let them and charge them for what is bound to be a very expensive service.  In my club it would be full whack guesstimate like utilities do with an adjustment at the end of the year.  No way would I make the entire membership take a bath because folks want to ride.  If folks want to go on the cheap by walking with a trolley or with a bag over the shoulder, fine, let them. 

So far as the status thing goes, jeepers, talk about shallow.  If that was used my opinion of the those holding that view would drop significantly.  Its probably the same guys who want to set stringent dress codes which happens to suit their sensibilities. 

No, its much easier to live and let live.  The less rules where leisure is concerned, the better.

Ciao       

[John Kavanaugh]

While many find them offensive, stereotypes are often true. Scots are cheap and people don't pay $25 for a cart because they would rather spend their money on something else.  ie: At a very minimum 40% of walkers who carry their own bags do so because they are too cheap to pay for a caddie or cart.  It is not a coincidence that these are the same people who put their shoes on in the parking lot, take water from the course instead of the club house and avoid the bag boys at all costs.  We all know who the cheap guys are at the club and most are the same ones who massage the rules to walk and carry.

Allowing buggies will unfortunately allow people like me, the fat and cheap, an opportunity to avoid carts and caddies themselves.  note: I own two push carts and can't wait for the day to put them to use.  It is just another selfish dream of a fat irishman.

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

Next time I send a GCA.com Member a bottle of Single Malt it will be an imported bottle of questionable parentage rather than one from the 'Sixteen Men of Tain' (Glenmorangie for those over the pond or south of the boarder) in keeping with your stereotypes that the 'Scots are cheap'.  Cheap is not right, we are just careful with our money but never cheap, after all we love the good things in life i.e. traditional whisky, golf, walking and our women are certainly not cheap.

Melvyn

[Lou_Duran]

While many find them offensive, stereotypes are often true. Scots are cheap and people don't pay $25 for a cart because they would rather spend their money on something else.  ie: At a very minimum 40% of walkers who carry their own bags do so because they are too cheap to pay for a caddie or cart.  It is not a coincidence that these are the same people who put their shoes on in the parking lot, take water from the course instead of the club house and avoid the bag boys at all costs.  We all know who the cheap guys are at the club and most are the same ones who massage the rules to walk and carry.

Allowing buggies will unfortunately allow people like me, the fat and cheap, an opportunity to avoid carts and caddies themselves.  note: I own two push carts and can't wait for the day to put them to use.  It is just another selfish dream of a fat irishman.

Thanks for helping me understand why I feel so much kinship with the folks in the UK.  To this day, my son reminds me of the abuse I subjected him to while growing up by refusing to allow him to ride during the hot summer days in Texas when he played with me (I carried).  He too thinks I am cheap as I am sure the majority of the members of our club thought as well.  Curiously, he has a hard time reconciling how I typically walk when I can, even if there is no additional cost for riding.

But you're right, cost is a factor for most of us if only in the context of value.  There are a bunch of things I wouldn't want even if they were free.  The true test at a private course would be to price riding carts and trolleys at their true cost and see the usage over the long run.  I suspect that at most places in the U.S., walking and trolleys would make up a very small percentage of the rounds.

I find it amusing that many here seem to think that golf course operators don't have a clue regarding the management and operation of their facilities.  The profit margin of the cart fleet at many courses is huge, even after capitalizing the cost of the building, cart paths, and the fleet (when not leased), and including all normal operating costs (incl. damage to course).  Even at not-for-profit private clubs, cart usage subsidizes all sorts of amenities which can't generate revenues to cover their costs.  Golfers in great numbers, whether we like it or not, are willing to shell out to ride.  In many cases, raise their dues somewhat to cover other "private club essentials" and they'll run to another club dying to add new members at reduced rates to help cover fixed costs.  Or, as many private clubs are facing, a raise in dues cause members to start thinking in terms of "cost per round" and when they look at that astronomical number, the relationships don't look so valuable and the CCFAD nearby with a pretty good course and a la carte pricing gets the nod.      

[Sean_A]

Sweet Lou

My frugal sensibilities can't compute spending "extra" cash on top of considerable expense to play a game.  JakaB calls it cheap, I call it prioritizing limited resources. 

Ciao     

[Roger Wolfe]

First off I apologize to Dave Givnish for continuing to hijack his thread... but it's too good a topic to turn down.  Carl Johnson and Lou Duran make excellent points.  Everyone does!  I will try to clear up some of the questions.  It’s a mystery wrapped in an enigma, but let’s get down to the facts.

1.    Carts are a “must” at all but the most exclusive clubs and resorts.  We would not exist without them.  We would have to charge very high monthly dues (for the loss of 50% of our membership) and eliminate our old and/or infirm members from playing golf.
2.    Because of #1, a “cart barn” is a necessity, so I eliminate the amortization and maintenance of that building in my calculations.
3.    I do not take “wear and tear” of the course into consideration.  With proper routing and member education, the cart traffic is not a problem.  Note that we have indestuctible bermudagrass fairways.  I know for a fact that fescue cannot take traffic.  I am sure bentgrass suffers from greater cart impact as well.
4. A much bigger problem are the divots.  Again this is a bermudagrass issue and might differ with bent and fescue.  We fill our divots with sand.  We don’t replace them.  I don’t think it’s fair to ask a walker to lug a sand bottle when carrying his bag.  We like push carts because most come with a sand bottle attachment.  So I take “wear and tear” on the course out of the equation.
5. We lease our fleet and with our current usage, 90% of our carts we turn in are still in excellent condition.  I don’t think the marginal usage increase from not charging a cart fee would make a material difference in maintenance costs.

Here is what we pay every year for our cart fleet of 72 state of the art Club Cars with rain covers, coolers and sand bottles:

Lease cost:  4 year operating lease with a 4 year battery warranty.  $56,000 per year
Maintenance contract:  $5,000 per year (batteries, cables, etc….)
Cart / bag attendants (estimate 1 per day marginal cart vs no cart):  add $25,000 per year
Pro shop attendants (deduct 1 per day marginal cart vs no cart): subtract $25,000 per year
Electricity:  42,000 per year for my entire facility (clubhouse, cart barn, maintenance, pumphouse, fans).  To be conservative, let’s assume $10,000 of that is to charge carts.

The total annual expense for a 72 cart fleet is $71,000 at the most.  We have 500 members, an average age of 45, are open all year round, and do about 18,000 rounds per year.  10,000 of those rounds are riding.

If our annual cart revenue was $400,000, this conversation wouldn’t be worth having.  Since it’s only $150,000 and I don't think $25 a month is going to cause anyone to resign from a club they paid $22,000 to join, it’s something I dwell over every year I write the budget.

Eliminate the revenue issues surrounding cart policies and usage!
Then we can all go out and just play golf!

[Bill_McBride]

John

Next time I send a GCA.com Member a bottle of Single Malt it will be an imported bottle of questionable parentage rather than one from the 'Sixteen Men of Tain' (Glenmorangie for those over the pond or south of the boarder) in keeping with your stereotypes that the 'Scots are cheap'.  Cheap is not right, we are just careful with our money but never cheap, after all we love the good things in life i.e. traditional whisky, golf, walking and our women are certainly not cheap.

Melvyn

As the recipient of the Glenmorangie largess, I can testify that MHM is a terrific guy.  I just wish he would come visit us at a Buda Cup some time.