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Steve Hyden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« on: September 14, 2011, 04:43:08 PM »
I played Dubs a lot in the early 90s, then moved away.  What are Mr. Jones's alleged sins?

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/at-cog-hill-players-happy-about-event-not-1858400.html


Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2011, 05:38:55 PM »
Anyone have the details on the work Rees completed at Cog Hill (or a link to an old thread on the topic)?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2011, 05:43:24 PM »
I posted some photos a while back. But can't seem to find them in the search feature.
H.P.S.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 05:47:04 PM »
More on what Stricker, Mickelson, Donald, Furyk and Ogilvy said today in this link. Tough to please, these millionaires.

http://golfinchicago.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/players-pillory-dubsdread-in-advance-of-western-bmw/

And Jones' "no comment" in response:

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/jones-no-comment-to-players-cog-hill-criticism/
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 05:49:01 PM by Tim_Cronin »
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Jim Colton

Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 05:47:35 PM »
Anyone have the details on the work Rees completed at Cog Hill (or a link to an old thread on the topic)?

There is an old thread on the subject, and I remember posting a link to a pdf that detailed the work. Just think pinching both sides of the driving areas with deep bunkers, digging the greenside bunkers deeper and using that fill to raise the green profiles, squaring the tee boxes and installing sub-air. They may have trimmed back a few trees as well.

I'm not sure I would be as harsh as Philly Mick or Stricker, but I can say that when I played the course after the renovations, I couldn't really say that the course was any better than the previous version. Different? Yes. Harder? Yes. Better? I don't think so. $5 million well-spent???

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 05:51:25 PM »
Phil M,

Keep trumpeting the GCA message, and consider doing a Feature Interview for this site.

We know you're watching,

Alex

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 06:01:30 PM »
Phil M,

Keep trumpeting the GCA message, and consider doing a Feature Interview for this site.

We know you're watching,

Alex

Maybe Phil can be convinced to come to KP at Sagebrush next June as a relaxing warm up to the US Open the following week!!   ;D

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2011, 06:06:00 PM »
Anyone have the details on the work Rees completed at Cog Hill (or a link to an old thread on the topic)?

More penal bunkering.  Added length.  Generally raised almost all of the greens by a few feet and closed off a lot of front entrances, so it's virtually impossible to run balls on to any of the greens.  Cosmetically, they added a bunch of squared off tee boxes that just look different than the old version.  

The bunkering was changed and the greens were reshaped a little on pretty much every hole, but the major changes were increased bunkering in the fairways on 1, 5, 8, 10, 17, and 18.  This tightened the first fairway; increased bunkers on the left side of 5; added bunkers to the left side of 8 (and further up toward the green as well on the right side, but those shouldn't be in play for the pros); added bunkers all the way up the right side of 10; added bunkers all the way up the left side of 17; and tightened the fairway on 18.

Other major changes were the removal of the bunker inside the dogleg on seven, but replaced it with a big pond.  They added the bunkers on 8, but took out a big willow on the left side, which I think makes the hole play easier than before.  The restored the baranca in front of the 13th green, so there's more trouble if you miss short, but unless they shave that hill, it shouldn't make a huge difference for the pros.  They reshaped the 18th green, narrowing the front lobe and moving the green closer to the water.  

The way the bunkers are shaped, the grass grows down the sides of most of them, such that they aren't all the big flash faced bunkers.  This can be a problem if your ball comes to rest near an edge, or worse yet, your ball doesn't make it all the way into the bunker.  I can't think of a much more difficult shot than a ball that missed the 18th green and comes to rest on the far right slope of a greenside bunker.  It's a downhill lie, pitching over the bunker to a green sloping away and toward the water.  
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 06:10:16 PM by Bill Seitz »

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2011, 06:37:26 PM »
I guess they don't like it when courses are made more difficult in order to defend par and remain relevant. More's the pity.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 06:55:24 PM »
I was speaking to someone today about the Olympic course, and he mentioned how important it was for whomever the architect is to build something that is generally popular among the players ... because if the players pan the course and make a public fuss of it, it increases the odds that golf will be quickly dispensed from the Olympic realm.  I confess I hadn't thought of that angle before.  I haven't heard Rees Jones' name in the hopper for that job, but based on that comment it's probably just as well.

I wonder why Mickelson is promoting particular architect's names?  ["A Coore-Crenshaw"?]  I don't know if he has actually seen any of my work or not, but I know why he isn't mentioning me ... because I didn't want Phil and Rick Smith as co-designers on something a few years back [which never got built anyway].  Hopefully someday I'll get to build a course he hates.  ;)

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 08:16:17 PM »
All Rees knows is length and water and that's not architecture.  AAC had nine water holes...Oakland Hills, Winged Foot West, Olympic Club and Oakmont have - combined - two.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3816
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 08:34:43 PM »
All Rees knows is length and water and that's not architecture.  AAC had nine water holes...Oakland Hills, Winged Foot West, Olympic Club and Oakmont have - combined - two.

Jay,

How about Seminole ?

Pebble Beach ?

Maidstone ?

NGLA ?

Steve,

Frank Hannigan once told me that the last people you wanted to listen to about course set up and golf courses are the competitors since they tended to view everything, solely through their eyes to the exclusion of others.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 08:35:26 PM »
I wonder why Mickelson is promoting particular architect's names?  ["A Coore-Crenshaw"?]  I don't know if he has actually seen any of my work or not, but I know why he isn't mentioning me ... because I didn't want Phil and Rick Smith as co-designers on something a few years back [which never got built anyway].  Hopefully someday I'll get to build a course he hates.  ;)

Well, since that can has been opened..... did they simply want to "rubber stamp" the proposed work or were they interested in the design process?

David:

I never found out.  That situation came up immediately after Sebonack, and at that moment, I wasn't ready to do another co-design with anybody else.  And I was already under contract as the designer of record.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 08:40:53 PM »
This is an interesting development - and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Professional golfers have been criticizing golf courses/architects for decades, but this kind of sudden change in the "consensus opinion" seems like a new phenomenon.  Wasn't it just a few years ago that Jones' renovations were, if not exactly welcomed, at least accepted as strong tests of the best players in the world (i.e. Tiger Woods)? As much as I like players like Phil and Geoff, there is a touch of the self-serving in their comments...as if they are saying "if the courses were better, I'd win more".  But there is something objective too.

Peter

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 08:49:29 PM »
I've never been a believer in the statement: "my enemy's enemy is my friend"
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2011, 08:53:10 PM »
I think a lot of this criticism is entirely unfair.  Absent changes to 7 and 13 (two neat holes that have been disfigured) it's the same golf course that it was before....except it now has greenside bunkers posing as fairway bunkers on the both sides of what seems like every fairway at the 290-310 landing area.

Do I like the new Cog?  No....but only because I didn't really like the old Cog.

It's a perfectly fine golf course and will test the players this week....and that seems to be what the PGA Tour, the Jemsek family and Rees Jones wanted to do.  And given the winners at Dubs, it seems to champion some of the best players on Tour quite often.  If the best in the world don't like the bunkers, I suggest they don't hit it in them.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 09:12:23 PM by Potts »

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2011, 09:32:39 PM »
If the best in the world don't like the bunkers, I suggest they don't hit it in them.

Fair enough. What is your advice if they don't like the greens?

Hit it closer to the hole.

Or, take your two putt and go to the next hole.

That said, the 7th and 13th greens are ridiculous.  And I've always thought that the 18th hole was an abortion.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2011, 11:29:34 PM »
Anybody ever consider how many courses on the PGA Tour have been touched by Rees Jones? In my discussion with a couple of them, the issue is that his work looks the same and plays the same way (flanked, deep bunkers, segmented greens). I think much of the problem is that they play so many of them and they are very similar. This year I only count three Rees courses -- but two majors and a FedEx event. Occasionally, depending on the rotation, there are a couple more. In past years this has included the Presidents Cup course (Royal Montreal, for example) and other US Open venues. These are the kinds of courses Mickelson and Stricker, as highly ranked players, will play every year.

It strikes me as problematic to have so many courses in the hands of one architect, especially one with such a specific aesthetic and strategic approach.

It also strikes me that the tide has turned a bit -- increasingly Gil Hanse has taken a lot of reno work from Rees in the NY area, and his work at TPC at Boston seems to have been well received by the players I've spoken with. It would be nice to have a greater mix of designers than just Fazio and Jones redos.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2011, 12:17:09 AM »
All Rees knows is length and water and that's not architecture.  AAC had nine water holes...Oakland Hills, Winged Foot West, Olympic Club and Oakmont have - combined - two.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3816

Jay,

I admire most of your comments in your blog but quite frankly your comments above are full of it.

MPCC Dunes, a very, very good renovation, has one hole bounded by water, the 14th and it is sensational hole and probably only the 15th and 16th at Cyprus are better.

Bob
 

Sam Morrow

Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2011, 01:11:02 AM »
I have mixed feeling of the Jones work I have played but anybody who pisses off tour players this much can't be all bad. Before we pan his work shouldn't we know what the developers, course owners, etc asked him to do? If he did exactly what they wanted maybe we should show him a little more respect.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2011, 01:18:50 AM »
All Rees knows is length and water and that's not architecture.  AAC had nine water holes...Oakland Hills, Winged Foot West, Olympic Club and Oakmont have - combined - two.



When did Rees work at the Olympic Club?

And when did the 16th hole get lengthened to 676 yards?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2011, 06:50:05 AM »
i feel for the Jemseks, as it would be nice if Cog got an Open someday
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2011, 07:52:08 AM »
i feel for the Jemseks, as it would be nice if Cog got an Open someday

Paul, I'm sorry, but that's just Bull-shee.

You can sympathize for them, but their actions, in this day and age, were both inexcusable and ignorant.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2011, 09:15:16 AM »
i feel for the Jemseks, as it would be nice if Cog got an Open someday

Paul, I'm sorry, but that's just Bull-shee.

You can sympathize for them, but their actions, in this day and age, were both inexcusable and ignorant.


Their actions were inexcusable?  How do you get to there?  They own the golf course, and they can do what they want to with it.  But, if they're not happy with the results, they should probably consider whether they had the right motivation going into the project.  From all reports, they got what they wanted -- only to find out it set them back, if their ultimate goal was to host a U.S. Open.

By the same token, no course "deserves" an Open.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Players unload on Rees Jones Cog Hill work
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2011, 10:04:14 AM »
The course isn't nearly as bad as the Tour Pros or Jay Flemma think it is. (At least the Tour Pros have actually played the course).

Ryan Potts has it right. Cog isn't a great course now, but then again it wasn't that great before the renovation, and I think the course is better now even if I don't agree with all changes.

Phil Mickelson is a dope. We get it Phil...you liked the Castle course and Gil Hanse's renovation work. I'm sure his feelings have nothing to do with his inability to hit a fairway and said GCA's generally build wide fairways.

What exactly makes him thing that C&C would be the best choice to renovate a 1960's era tree-lined Dick Wilson course? Who ever said they even would do it? Or Tom Doak, or Gil Hanse?
H.P.S.

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