[Chris Johnston]

John - we agree here.

While #5 at Dismal River isn't particulary long, it is uphill and into a very trcky green.  When Tiger Woods saw #5, he said "are you kidding me?"  Mind you, I really enjoy #5 but is is more difficult than it's counterpart at Sand Hills.  The only mitigating facctor is the uphill lie from the fairway at Sand Hills, into a small and challenging green.

My List:

1  Sand Hills
2  Sand Hills
3  Sand Hills
4  Sand Hills
5  Dismal River
6  Sand Hills

I have added #6 as well as they are almost the reverse of the logic on #5.  #6 at Hand Hills isn't particularly long bit it has a 3 club green with a massive hump in the middle - a classic!.  So large it has a sprinkle head in the center and downhill putts require a diaper!  Bottom left pin location is hidden behind a large hill.  It requires distance control and has bunkers to the right.  Bogey is very easy here.  #6 at Dismal is a fun hole.  Hybrid or 3 wood off the tee, drivable with the wind behind you.  Second shot is short to a small pounchbowl.  Hit the green and you are left with a very reasonable birdie opportunity, or par putt if you made a mistake.  

Two very good but very different holes.  Easy call here - Sand Hills #6 is far and away more difficult.

[John Kavanaugh]

Well, since Chris brought it up and the 6th holes are not worthy of a day of their own, the 6th at Sand Hills is obviously the more difficult hole.  Honestly if anything, I do not get why the 3rd and 6th holes at Sand Hills seem so similar. There I am bored again.

The 6th hole at Dismal is an absolute birdie hole unless this alternate fairway deal is completed some day.  I have hit from that fairway, quite by accident, and it is bizarrely difficult.

The match, in my eyes stands:

1. Dismal
2. Dismal
3. Even
4. Sand Hills
5. Dismal
6. Sand Hills

Dismal 1 up
Posted on: Yesterday at 08:20:57 PM P

[Terry Lavin]

DR is two up after five holes.

Sand Hills is rated one of the very best golf courses in the country, perhaps the best golf course built in the last fifty years.  And you're trying to tell me DR is in the same ballpark, competitive?  

I look forward to playing DR sometime next summer and will acknowledge that it looks like it should be a fun course, but you're really trying to say it might be as good as Sand Hills?  

Share what you're smoking with the "dudes" who are rambling on about the Dead and Phish.

[Charlie Goerges]

Terry, I believe the discussion is one of difficulty, not quality.

[John Kavanaugh]

DR is two up after five holes.

Sand Hills is rated one of the very best golf courses in the country, perhaps the best golf course built in the last fifty years.  And you're trying to tell me DR is in the same ballpark, competitive?  

I look forward to playing DR sometime next summer and will acknowledge that it looks like it should be a fun course, but you're really trying to say it might be as good as Sand Hills?  

Share what you're smoking with the "dudes" who are rambling on about the Dead and Phish.

Terry,

This is comparison of difficulty not excellence.  I will tell you that in my opinion Dismal is as much fun to play as Sand Hills.  Here is the core to my phillosophy:

I am grateful to have been allowed to play Sand Hills once.  I don't care if I ever play there again as Dismal fits my every need for golf in the Sand Hills region.  The reason for my feelings lay in their close proximity.  In Chicago terms, it would be like checking out of the Four Seasons and walking across to the Ritz Carlton.  

[Terry Lavin]

I guess I missed the fact that it's a "difficulty" not a "quality" comparison.  I'm not sure of the "value" of such a comparison, but I guess we'll see where it goes.  

Barney, I'm glad you love DR.  From all appearances and descriptions, it's worthy of your golfing affection.  But Ritz vs. Four Seasons?

I've only played Sand Hills on one trip, but it's my favorite course that I've ever played.  Better than Cypress, better than the four courses at Bandon, better than LACC, etc.  I just cannot fathom that a place that isn't rated at all can be so favorably compared to what is ranked #9 in Golf Magazine.  It may well be that Dismal is a better place for you to be a member.  It may well have a better vibe, a more rustic, just us guys sort of mentality, but I find it hard to believe that every magazine is that far off.

But that's probably much ado about nothing vis a vis this thread.  Ramble on!

[Chris Johnston]

Terry - your premise would mean that one course is either very overrated or the other very underrated.

Sand Hills is certainly not overrated, it is well deserving of her lofty rating and affection.  I know of no one who would seriously argue this and I share your feelings, 100%.  Sand Hills is one of the best layouts, courses, and experiences in golf.  Maybe the best.

201 has been widely panned as "too difficult".  This thread may be shed some bright light in that regard.  I have the first 6 holes scored 5-1 in favor of Sand Hills in terms of difficulty for a 9 handicap on with yardage equalized to compare apples to apples.  No question, the back tees at Dismal River are more difficult but that is simply due to Sand Hills having no equivalent.

[John Kavanaugh]

I guess I missed the fact that it's a "difficulty" not a "quality" comparison.  I'm not sure of the "value" of such a comparison, but I guess we'll see where it goes.  

Barney, I'm glad you love DR.  From all appearances and descriptions, it's worthy of your golfing affection.  But Ritz vs. Four Seasons?

I've only played Sand Hills on one trip, but it's my favorite course that I've ever played.  Better than Cypress, better than the four courses at Bandon, better than LACC, etc.  I just cannot fathom that a place that isn't rated at all can be so favorably compared to what is ranked #9 in Golf Magazine.  It may well be that Dismal is a better place for you to be a member.  It may well have a better vibe, a more rustic, just us guys sort of mentality, but I find it hard to believe that every magazine is that far off.

But that's probably much ado about noting vis a vis this thread.  Ramble on!

Terry,

I used two fine hotels as an example because of their proximity.  I'm trying to lead a more modest life so have never stayed at The Peninsula.

Sand Hills is and always should be the number one rated course in the region.  It deserves that respect. I, as should be all golfers, am eternally grateful to Mr. Youngscap for his vision in bringing high quality golf to the region.

Dismal has changed from it's initial chance at a first impression with the magazines.  It, like me, has made many mistakes over the course of its life.  I forgive her.  Some will not and for this reason I love her no less than if she does not make the Homecoming court.

The magazines didn't get anything wrong with the exception of being magazines.  When checking out at WalMart last night, homework emergency ink cartridge refill, I so wanted to buy the People Magazine with the Toddlers and Tierras cover.  I just can no longer pull the trigger on weekly media.

[Scott Szabo]

Mark's picture of the approach to the 4th green - it looks like the windmill is very much in play.  Is it really that way or are the pictures a bit misleading?

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark's picture of the approach to the 4th green - it looks like the windmill is very much in play.  Is it really that way or are the pictures a bit misleading?

It is very much in play when going for the green in two as indicated by my description of hitting into the trough.  The beauty of the hole is that as soon as you hit to the lay up area it is no longer in play.  The windmill is also far enough from the green that it can be hit over instead of around by a very talented fellow.  I personally need to hit a fade around it since I disposed of my seven wood.

Few things are more fun than hoping that your opponent and friends hit the windmill.  I still remember the first time I hit it to the great pleasure of my guests.  If you don't like it, lay up.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark's picture of the approach to the 4th green - it looks like the windmill is very much in play.  Is it really that way or are the pictures a bit misleading?

Scott,

As John says, the windmill is very much in play, but really only if going for the green in two.  The picture is taken from about 225 yards out.  Successful layups will leave a clear view of the green, with the windmill on the left side of the line of play.

It should be noted that there is also some water (a well?) at the bottom of the windmill to add a bit of insult to injury.

[Eric Smith]

Terry,

I guess it's a matter of what is important to you. Is it important to you that your favorite place you've ever played is 'validated' by being listed in a magazine ranking? I don't believe that it is for everyone. But even then, it is highly unlikely imo that magazine rankings will forever hold out on this golf course. For whatever reasons they have thus far, things do and will change. They always do.

[Scott Szabo]

John, what is the play if you hit the windmill?  At other courses that have these types "hazards", such as power lines, it is an automatic replay of the shot.  Is it the same at DR?

I personally love the look of the windmill.

[Michael George]

From most accounts, I think Chris' statement that "one course is either very overrated or the other very underrated" is 100% correct.

I think Crhis is correct to recognize the merits of Sand Hills.  For Terry to say that it is his favorite course in the US is a very strong statement - especially with his resume.  For him to say that, it must be one incredible place.  

Likewise, in the last couple of years, I have not met anyone that has not loved Dismal River.  In fact, I think most accounts believe that it is very underrated and deserving of a much higher ranking, certainly top 100.  I have read that the club had problems upon opening that hurt its rankings, which problems have now been mostly corrected.  

My question to Chris is:  Since the changes, have you seen an increased play by raters at Dismal lately where the rankings might reflect what many believe?  Have you had discussions with Ron Whitten, Joe Passov and Brad Klein about the changes and need to "re-rank" it?  I would imagine with the new Doak course, you will get a lot more attention that will also help the Nicklaus course.

I know rankings are not everything, but obviously they create a perception that sometimes become reality in many people's minds.  

[John Kavanaugh]

John, what is the play if you hit the windmill?  At other courses that have these types "hazards", such as power lines, it is an automatic replay of the shot.  Is it the same at DR?

I personally love the look of the windmill.

The windmill is played like a tree.  When I hit into the water trough I played it as a water hazard.  There is no course rating or slope so since handicap posting is moot, play it however you like.  The only thing mandatory are good stories to take home.

[Mike Benham]

John started the thread hoping to flesh out which of THESE TWO courses is more difficult, in a hole by hole comparison.

A Nicklaus v C&C, from the back tees, it might be obvious to some which designer/course would be deemed more difficult.

Will John compare DRN v. Ballyneal next?  Ballyneal v. SH?  A round-robin competition ...

[Mark Saltzman]

The 5th at DR is a very fun, but difficult P3.  For a low-handicap playing from the squares and with a bit of local knowledge, I think it's a birdie hole.  For a high handicap it can be a nightmare.  From the square tees, the green is very elevated.  Much like the most difficult hole of many mini-putts, the green looks perched atop a hill with any shot not hit with precisely the right amount of power being rejected and bounding down to the bottom of a hill.  Slopes on the green, especially at the left and right edges, serve to bring off-line but correctly weighted shots toward the centre of the green.  Shots long and short are very bad, leaving a difficult recovery.

John, if you have not played this hole from the back tees, go try it.  Very intimidating. The angle of approach to the green changes completely and, much like the tee shot on the 3rd from the back tees, one is left to wonder how you are ever going to get a 4-iron to carry the slope short and stop on the green.

The 5th at SH is a birdie hole.   The fairway is wide and the green generally accommodating.

Dismal Wins.  Sand Hills 1UP.


Dismal River, Hole 5: Par 3, 150 Yards

Does anyone have any pictures of 5 at DR?  Mine seem to have gone missing.




Sand Hills, Hole 5: Par 4, 410 Yards

[Eric Smith]

Will John compare DRN v. Ballyneal next?  Ballyneal v. SH?  A round-robin competition ...

So what if he does?

[Eric Smith]

Mike,

Did you read what he wrote as to the why? The speaker shot a career round at Dismal. If everyone already knows which course is the more difficult as you imply (Nicklaus designed it thus it must be) then why did he have said round at DR? It's a valid discussion, comparison, etc.

[John Kavanaugh]

John started the thread hoping to flesh out which of THESE TWO courses is more difficult, in a hole by hole comparison.

A Nicklaus v C&C, from the back tees, it might be obvious to some which designer/course would be deemed more difficult.

Will John compare DRN v. Ballyneal next?  Ballyneal v. SH?  A round-robin competition ...

Personally I would enjoy the same thread covering Ballyneal vs Pacific Dunes.  Maybe we could get Mike Keiser and Rupert to contribute.  Oh sorry, the tree house might get bored.

[Mark Saltzman]

An easy comparison again at the 6th.  At DR this hole is a birdie hole.  There is lots of trouble around the green for anyone trying to drive it, but anyone missing the green from well under 100 yards deserves what they get.  Played from the original back tees (now NLE?), it is a very long way to reach the fairway.  From there the hole at DR is the harder hole, especially for a 9, but that is not what we are comparing.  

The 6th at SH does feel a bit like the 3rd, but playing 90 degrees in a different direction, the wind should be completely different.  It is a bit of a sleeper.  From the tee it doesn't look like much is going on, but 5s can be made very easily, especially if above the hole.  One of the most dramatically back-to-front sloping greens one will play, but because of its massive size this slope is somewhat more difficult to see.

Sand Hills wins.  SH 2UP.


Dismal River, Hole 6: Par 4, 313 Yards - Approach to green in very cool bowl




Sand Hills, Hole 6: Par 3, 190 Yards

Tee View




Tee View with front-left pin - Not only is this the most difficult pin to putt to, but it also is largely obscured from the tee.




Green

[Mac Plumart]

For me thus far...

#1--Dismal
#2--Sand Hills
#3--Dismal
#4--Sand Hills
#5--Sand Hills
#6--Dismal

All square through 6.

[Mark Saltzman]

For me thus far...

#1--Dismal
#2--Sand Hills
#3--Dismal
#4--Sand Hills
#5--Sand Hills
#6--Dismal

All square through 6.

Mac, we have holes 3, 5 and 6 different.  Could you elaborate?

[Mac Plumart]

For reference, I have 3 total plays on Sand Hills (2 from the mid tees and one from the tips), and maybe 15 plays at Dismal from all the tees.

3 is a tough call...maybe I should have said it was a push.  Target is bigger at Sandhills without as severe bunkering.  Trust me, that back right bunker at Dismal is beyound brutual!!!  I think I was with Eric when I got in it.  My best play was out sideways, but I didn't do that.  Ugh!!  There are just places at Dismal that if you miss to (short or long right) you are dead.  Sand Hills seemed to provide a good recovery shot from anywhere. 

I don't think either 5th hole is particularly hard.  Dismal is "tricky" but even missing long or short is recoverable.  The bunkers on 5 at Sand Hills can make a miss disaster, when there is little disaster at Dismal.

6 is easy/straight forward at Sand Hills.  6 at Dismal can be tricky.  It is a unique hole at Dismal that can tempt you to fire up close to the green or lay back.  But laying back sometimes puts people into an "in-between" shot and run-ups are beyond tricky on this hole.  Sand Hills #6 should never be any worse than bogey, while Dismal can rack up an "other" with a missed driver or approach shot.

[Terry Lavin]

Terry,

I guess it's a matter of what is important to you. Is it important to you that your favorite place you've ever played is 'validated' by being listed in a magazine ranking? I don't believe that it is for everyone. But even then, it is highly unlikely imo that magazine rankings will forever hold out on this golf course. For whatever reasons they have thus far, things do and will change. They always do.

I get what you're saying.  My love of any golf course is not necessarily validated by a ranking, but it's something to take into account.  There are plenty of places that I think are absolutely phenomenal and will never make the top 100 list of any publication.  I'm just registering some shock at the comparison of the course that I happen to rank number one and a course that has not gotten much love.  Like you, I am sure that there will be some change on the ranking of DR.  The PR effort is clearly demonstrated here with the many passionate threads about Dismal that have simply erupted on the site the past few months.  I'd be shocked if the mass of Golfweek raters don't simply erupt with ratings that vault the club into the top 30 modern.  I know how it works.  And I'm not objecting, just observing!

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