[John Kavanaugh]

JK, I have a different opinion on which opener is tougher. And, it has nothing to do with what tees you play. Everyone has to play on the green and SH's 1st is likely the biggest butt pucker of any green I have ever played. A bowled green is never more difficult than a promontory.

SH 1 up.

A pretty futile exercise, especially since Ben is quoted as saying they weren't building a hard golf course, but a great one.
 I say it's futile because difficulty is poor criteria.

Adam,

I said above that this has nothing to do with the quality of either course. If anything my curiosity was peaked by Sand Hills suddenly being seen as difficult.

[George Pazin]

If nothing else, it should be an illuminating exercise, as it's always interesting to see what people find challenging.

Take a hole like ANGC #13, widely acclaimed as one of the great par 5s in golf. Certainly one of the reasons it is so great is that almost everyone steps to the tee thinking he needs a 3 or 4, not that it is an especially challenging 5 (though it likely would be for ordinary golfers).

Then again, Pat might argue everything is futile unless you've played it 25 times in varying weather conditions...

[Steve Strasheim]

Love the Nebraska sandhills and look forward to playing at Dismal River someday.

For the purpose at hand, I would think you should compare like-par holes. How does Dismal River's first par 5 compare to Sand Hills #1? Or, maybe based on hole handicap. How does the #1 compare to the #1, etc.

[Kalen Braley]

On a related note...how does Sand Hills and Dismal compare to say Ballyneal when you don't find the fairway.

I found Ballyneal to be very accomdating in that I could miss the fairway and still find my ball in the Yucca plants and other grasses. I played 27 holes and only lost one ball...and that was because I was waaaayyy offline, like 50 yards off into the junk. Is this the same at SH and DR as well?

[Chris Johnston]

I've have probably played both Sand Hills and Dismal more than anyone, and I love them both.

I completely agree it is tough to compare Par 4's with Par 5's.

For me, the 1st at Sand Hills is more difficult than #1 at Dismal River, especially for the 9 handicapper.  Harder to birdie, equally hard to par, much easier to double, or more. Equally tricky tee shot (with Dismal), blind second layup, very tricky short iron to a green - Fast, small, and tough to putt, easy to spin off (not as easy since the green front was redone) and challenging to keep below the hole.  Get above the hole and three putt is likely.  The front right bunker is always present and intimidating on the very good approach.   Both Dismal River and Sand Hills openers, while different, are quite good and challenging holes.  

I can't recall making worse then +1 on the first at Dismal River.  Can't say the same for opener at Sand Hills.

If ok, for the comparison, I will use the original back tees at Sand Hills versus the member tees at Dismal River.  More apples to apples, imo.

Steve - On a "first par five to first Par 5" basis, I find Sand Hills #1 is also more difficult than Dismal River #4.

Kalen, "the ball in native is easy to find in most places, and advance, at both Sand Hills and Dismal River as long as you pay attention.  Usually a 1/2 shot penalty for missing the fairway.

The second holes will be very interesting. 

[Tom_Doak]

If I were to rank each hole on an implied scale it would go Sand Hills 4.7 with Dismal at a 4.3.

John:

I would expect a bit more thought on this subject from you.  All you are doing is trying to compute the Course Rating for two courses which, as you have already mentioned and defended, do not have Course Ratings, because so much is dependent on the wind.

Tom,

That is an interesting take.  I wish you had not told me that I was forming a course rating. I would like to know what number I would have arrived at without that consideration. It will now be impossible.

More than a number that would lead to a total I was trying to put a number on implied expectation. Just because I expect to birdie a hole does not mean it will happen.  You are correct, I didn't give this enough thought.  In a month or so when this thread is complete I will start another on implied expectation course ratings. Thanks.

John:

It only struck me as obvious because, when a client pins me down and asks what the course rating will/should be, that's exactly how I do it.  Luckily, none of them has asked for a while.  I usually don't give it any thought at all.

[Mark Saltzman]

For me, the 1st at Sand Hills is more difficult than #1 at Dismal River, especially for the 9 handicapper.  Harder to birdie, equally hard to par, much easier to double, or more. Equally tricky tee shot (with Dismal), blind second layup, very tricky short iron to a green - Fast, small, and tough to putt, easy to spin off (not as easy since the green front was redone) and challenging to keep below the hole.  Get above the hole and three putt is likely.  The front right bunker is always present and intimidating on the very good approach.   Both Dismal River and Sand Hills openers, while different, are quite good and challenging holes.  

I can't recall making worse then +1 on the first at Dismal River.  Can't say the same for opener at Sand Hills.

CJ,

This is exactly what I've been thinking about.  Dismal is very much a par or bogie hole, without a heck of a lot of bogies.  Miss-hit your tee shot and you're dealing with at best a blind approach from 170 from the fairway, and at worst a hack-out from the fairwa bunkers or long-grass.  But, because of the punchbowl nature of the green, it's a pretty easy bogey.

The same cannot be said of Sand Hills.  For the low-handicapper it's a birdie hole.  Wide tee shot, fairly wide second and you have a wedge in hand.  It is a very difficult approach, but with a wedge it is very doable.  If you miss your tee shot or second you have 150+ into the green and from there the approach is crazy hard.  That run-off in the front is very much in play and getting the ball on the green from the bottom of the run-off is no gimme.

For a low-handicapper, no doubt Dismal 1 is harder.  For a mid to high-handicap, I suspect Sand Hills 1 may be harder.

[John Kavanaugh]

On a related note...how does Sand Hills and Dismal compare to say Ballyneal when you don't find the fairway.

I found Ballyneal to be very accomdating in that I could miss the fairway and still find my ball in the Yucca plants and other grasses. I played 27 holes and only lost one ball...and that was because I was waaaayyy offline, like 50 yards off into the junk. Is this the same at SH and DR as well?

The yucca at Ballyneal is much tougher than anything in the Sand Hills. At Ballyneal I felt criminal for killing so many beautiful plants.

[Kalen Braley]

On a related note...how does Sand Hills and Dismal compare to say Ballyneal when you don't find the fairway.

I found Ballyneal to be very accomdating in that I could miss the fairway and still find my ball in the Yucca plants and other grasses. I played 27 holes and only lost one ball...and that was because I was waaaayyy offline, like 50 yards off into the junk. Is this the same at SH and DR as well?

The yucca at Ballyneal is much tougher than anything in the Sand Hills. At Ballyneal I felt criminal for killing so many beautiful plants.

Don't worry John,

Everything I've read about this plant says not only is it difficult to kill, you pretty much have to dig out every last root to get rid of it.  I guess this is why they have survived and thrived in such a tough environment that few other plants have been able to succeed in.

[Dan Herrmann]

I thought DR was tougher for me.  I hit a fair drive from the square tees and ended up with about 180.  Trust me, 180 to that green is TOUGH!

[John Kavanaugh]

The second hole is an interesting comparison.  First off in fairness to Sand Hills I have only played the hole in little to no wind and once from the up tee.  If I remember correctly there is an amazing tee near the first green that would add some distance.  I believe the only back tee I played was the once up a bit off to the left.  These conditions made the hole relatively easy off the tee where the green becomes the main line of defense.

The second tee shot at Dismal is the one shot on the course that will lead to my eventual retirement from golf in the Sand Hills.  I don't know which will come first, I will not be able to make that carry or my body will not hold up to the travel.  It is not that long of a carry but it requires a touch of elevation and does not allow a bail out to the right.  I think it is the single most difficult tee shot to a wide fairway with no out of bounds or water that I have ever played.  Get that done well and you get a hybrid to a blind cape where if lucky you get to see the top of the flag.  The best shot is a low running fade along the ground hitting, hoping and praying.  You do have to love the drive up to the hole wondering if you got lucky and stayed on-or found the green.  It is a great hole for a good golfer and one where you put your arm around your guest and promise that things will get better.

The crux of this argument comes down to the greatness of the second green at Sand Hills.  I personally think it is the finest most interesting fun green I have ever played.  It is of course not the most difficult because it is not stupid and is obvious in its intent.  I don't putt any green particularly well so, for me exclusively, I will not peg it as difficult.

I believe the second at Dismal is the harder hole.  Dismal 2 up

My implied rating is...in a sealed envelope as I give it more thought.  I am always happy with a bogey at Dismal #2.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do like holes early in the round where you can not win a tournament but you can lose it.  They really get up in your throat. Dismal #2 is that hole.

[Mark Saltzman]

John,

I will respectfully disagree, I think the Sand Hills hole is certainly harder.

I only played two sets of tees on the second at SH, and they played 460 and 420 respectively.  Winds were either straight into or straight across and this is a very daunting tee shot.  The landing area is blind from the tee, if you balloon it a bit right you're dead and if you pull it (which feels natural on that hole), you're not sure where the fairway ends and the tall grass begins.  On top of that the landing area is quite uphill meaning tee shots will not release very much.

I did not find the tee shot at DR difficult.  Lots of room to bailout left.  Yes, if you want to have a good look at the green you have to pipe one, but there are not too many places to get in trouble.

On the approach, the green at DR seems to funnel shots toward it, while the green at SH repels them.  The green at SH is one of the most difficult I have ever seen, and I am still not quite sure how one ever gets a ball to stay on that green.  I have said it before, though no one agrees with me, I think the 2nd green at SH is unfair.  If you land your ball on the green and it runs over the back, double-bogey becomes a pretty decent score.

SH wins, match all-square


2nd Tee at Sand Hills - Tee shot to diagonal and blind fairway where traditional right-handed misses (long-left and short-right) are both dead.





A couple of pictures of the 2nd Green at Sand Hills

[Eric Smith]

I did not find the tee shot at DR difficult.  Lots of room to bailout left.

2nd Tee at Sand Hills - Tee shot to diagonal and blind fairway where traditional right-handed misses (long-left and short-right) are both dead.

Hmmm. I think you just described the 2nd at Dismal there, Champ!

Here is the tee at 2 DR. A big gulp moment for sure. I've seen several not make the fairway here and the room to the left runs out rather quickly when playing a running draw.



I think the tee shot and the approach at DR is more difficult than 2 SH, but all bets are off when we reach the greens. The green at DR is fairly benign, while SH2 is a real doozy. In fact, if you're not careful even the 9 cap has a good chance at a 4 putt. This green is right up there with #'s 5 and 12 at Merion as being among the best, most intimidating greens I have seen.

So, a push here. DR 1 UP

[Mark Saltzman]

Eric,

Is that the view of DR2 from the squares or the diamonds?  Funny, in my head the fairway looks a lot more welcoming than it does in that picture.

[George Pazin]

How long is that carry at DR?

[Mike Hendren]

I'm enjoying this thread.  When John decides to seriously discuss architecture I'm all ears.  

That said, to borrow a concept previously popularized by John, may we have Dismal free Mondays?

Mike

[Eric Smith]

Mark,

That is from the back tee.

George,

About 210 to carry from the tee pictured. 170 or so from the next tee.

Boger,

I'll be in Nashville this afternoon. Look for me on the road...

[Mike Hendren]

Eric, I'm just surprised the sticker isn't orange and white and shaped like a football!  Bottom line is that I'm merely jealous of you and Kavanaugh.  Behave.

Bogey

[Eric Smith]

That's a great idea, my friend! Please try to come out there with me next year.

This Sunday's Tennessean headline: VOLS DRAIN THE SWAMP!

[Chris Johnston]

This one is a bit tricky.  Both are difficult par fours but tee equalization is important.  The apples to apples yardage at SH #2 (corresponding to the member tee at Dismal River) is either back tee to the right or left of the SHGC first green.  I agree with Salz here that either of these tees at SH make it a much more difficult hole that DR #2 - both drives are very challenging with peril - SHGC narrows quickly in the landing area/  From the back tees on a calm day, I have had everything from 200 to 230 yards into a very challenging green - scary for a 9 handicap player with a hybrid or 3-5 wood.  For me, the determinator is the (agree with John) fabulous, but very difficult, 2nd green at SHGC.  The green has a 1/3 false front and narrow upper right and narrow lower left putting areas with an >3ish foot slope in the middle.   The visual intimidation from the is greater at Dismal but the shot itself is easy if you know the course.  Both have significant carry involved.  The approach to Dismal River # 2 is blind but dramatically downhill into a funnel - not particularly difficult as you can hit a club shorter than the yardage and/or run the ball onto the green, and chipping is far easier if you miss.  With distance fairly equal, the second green at SH makes the difference.  Mind you, both are very challenging par 4's but with a very easily "three puttable" green, SHGC is the more difficult of the two.

Depending on wind, #2 at Sand Hills may be the only the 4th hardest par 4 on the course, with 4, 14, and 18.  #2 at Dismal River is the second hardest par 4 on that course, behind 14.

For the 9 handicapper, SHGC +2.

John - fyi apples to apples, using the tees you played, you would use the tees up the hill at Dismal River.  The drive then is open and comfortable and leaving a 9 iron to wedge into the green.

Eric - Have Fun!

[Scott Szabo]

Sand Hills from the double diamonds is a beast.  From the member's tees it's much more playable.  I've never played DR, but from the back tees it's hard to imagine that Sand Hills doesn't win this one.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm enjoying this thread.  When John decides to seriously discuss architecture I'm all ears.  

That said, to borrow a concept previously popularized by John, may we have Dismal free Mondays?

Mike

Of course a Doak free Friday includes a break from Dismal. They have become one.  The D.O.R.G. has assimilated architectural thought in the Sand Hills. We will start again on Monday as all Dismal all the time will make for a dull boy. 2013 will be here before we know it.

[John Kirk]

I can't fully participate because I haven't played Dismal River.  I think the tee shot at Sand Hills #2 is very difficult, and easy to pull it left into deep native grass.  I agree the green is outstanding, but for me the tee shot is borderline difficult.

[Mike Hendren]

That's a great idea, my friend! Please try to come out there with me next year.

Thanks again for the invitation.  I just might start squirreling away a little coinage.

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