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Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've been assigned to do a series on the golf course restoration at Paramount, and the first article, complete with pictures and interviews with everyone is up.  We get great insights into the project from Steve Lapper and superintendent Brian Chapin.  Two holes are complete with the halfway mark expected next spring.  The completed work looks facinating - including a skyline green at 6 and a centerline bunker at 5.  The plans are for 18 to be a Reef hole - a rare gem of Tilly's.  on the way, we discuss roads bi-secting holes and the pros and cons of finishing sides or rounds on par-3s.  Have fun.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3862

From the article:

“We’re different from Tillinghast’s major venues in a few ways,” observes Brian Chapin. “We have wider fairways so there’s more room to play the game, and that’s good for the membership. They enjoy their day more. We’re an estate course, and that means play moves faster for the members. Also, we have some really interesting holes that are unique in the Tillinghast design legacy, such as the great uphill approach at one to start the day and, when it’s restored, the famous Reef Hole at 18. In fact, both nines here end on par-3s,” he finishes proudly.

I say proudly for a reason. While some might scoff at the idea of a course ending either nine with a par-3, let alone both, when 18 is restored it will be an important hole in Tillinghast’s legacy. Moreover, while at a lesser course with little architecture, ending both nines on par-3s might be Mickey-Mouse, at Paramount it works. It’s another example of how not only is the course’s history is colorful, but the course itself has some charmingly colorful moments as well, uniqueness that the player remembers long after he plays. The job was to preserve and protect those elements while also dealing with technology.

“When we listened to the various architects’ pitches, we were looking for preservation of the original architecture. We didn’t want to bastardize it or dilute it, and we weren’t just trying to add length or difficulty for the sake of adding length or difficulty,” Lapper asserted. “Jim Urbina is in that elite league of architects you can trust to exercise a creative hand over the land and achieve a natural looking result. But he also knows the value and virtues of restraint.”
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Mike Sweeney

Jay or Steve,

Can you post a bigger image of The Reef Hole diagram for the new #18? It is a little hard to see on the Blog. Thanks. I was not as down on the current #18, and Mike Young seemed to like it:



It needed some cleaning up esthetically, but I did like the hole.

My reading of Jay's article is that we are looking at a blend of restoration on many holes and then a "Tilly Interpretation" on the remaining holes (similar to Sleepy Hollow's recent renovation). Is that fair to say?


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
That's not 18
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
If everyone could write like Jay the world would be a cooler place. And not just cause there would be one hell of allot more trees.

Mike Sweeney

That's not 18

You are correct. I think it is #13. Still would like to see The Reef diagram, and I now agree with Jay's view of #18 with my updated memory.

Brian Chapin

  • Karma: +0/-0
The picture above is #9.  Those bunkers were rebuilt by John Harvey in 2009 before Jim Urbina was hired.  I will post some pictures of the reef hole diagram and the current 18 a little later today.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Slapper: So this is where your spending all of your free time?

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
That's not 18

You are correct. I think it is #13. Still would like to see The Reef diagram, and I now agree with Jay's view of #18 with my updated memory.

Mike that pic with Mike Young  is nine.

Here's the reef diagram



Here's 18 now:

« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 04:31:26 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, it's close to a 100% restoration.  7 is the exception.  In some places they put back bunkers not anywhere near in play - like 6...there's a couple maybe 60 yards in front of the tee.  The only interpretation going on might be, for example, the exact shaping of a fairway bunker from an aerial.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
How about the rest of you?  Your thoughts on Paramount?

Steve Lapper - your opinion?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am somewhat biased and as such, much more interested in the opinions of others  ;)
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jay,

you're a phan?
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
In a manner of speaking:)  I've played We-ko-pa for example ;D
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Which one of the diagrams in post #7 is the Reef Hole, and why is it a "Reef Hole?"  What makes a "Reef Hole?"

Philip Young told me one time but I have a nasty case of CRS disease.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
The middle diagram is the Reef Hole.  It's called the Reef hole because the green is supposed to resemble an island in the middle of hazards.  It's an illusion though as safe areas behind and short are hidden.  It's supposed to play easier than it looks.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
First of all, I am super excited about the restoration at Paramount. As a huge Tilly fan, this is super news. I had a great time walking the course and meeting Brain early this spring as work was just starting... thanks to Jim for setting it up.

The middle diagram is the Reef Hole.  It's called the Reef hole because the green is supposed to resemble an island in the middle of hazards.  It's an illusion though as safe areas behind and short are hidden.  It's supposed to play easier than it looks.


Jay - I'm not sure thats correct. I just pulled out my copy of The Course Beautiful because most of the discussion on the Reef hole didn't sound 100% to me... "I named the type "The Reef" because of the diagonal spine which suggested treacherous reef water outside the harbor." p 95

Also, I know "Phil the author" mentioned Bethpage Yellow, but I do believe there is at least 1 more Reef hole (#13 at Quaker Ridge), and maybe a 2nd according to another GCA'er #2 at Rock Hill CC in South Carolina, which I haven't seen. I believe I've had this conversation with Philip before and #13 at Quaker fits the definition of Reef Hole perfectly.

The Reef hole as Tilly explains in the same article in The Course Beautiful is not about surrounding the green with hazards, but providing multiple lines of play on the design of the long par-3. There clearly also some grading and deception requirements regarding the cross hazard to make it appear as though it is right on top of the green, when there is plenty of room between to bounce balls onto the playing surface. If you are looking at the sketch, you will see (1) there is the obvious line of play, straight at the green, for those long enough to carry the hazard. (2) Plays around the hazard where the grading of the large fairway allows for balls to run onto the green. (3) Is the line to the left which allows players who try to take on the carry of the hazard, but pull their shot. This line should actually reward the player for taking the risk and reward the player with the easier angle for a chip up to the green. (4) Is for the shorter player who lays up from the hazard into the fairway. The timid player, according to the article, in this case should face a harder chip to the green.


A photo of Quaker #13 Pre-Renovation in 2009


After the Renovation (taken during the winter)

michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mr. Flemma...

you're a phan?

Jaeger...

was the picture taken at average height on the 'blue' tee? because it looks from in front of the front tee...not necessarily capturing the full deception aspect of the cross bunker
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0




Here's a link to a photo tour of Paramount from a round earlier this summer

http://sports.webshots.com/album/580480685RLOixP
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 11:51:22 PM by Stewart Abramson »

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike D - see my post above - "I've been known to play We-ko-pa" ;) ;)

Jaeger - There's no diagonal spine in the green at 18 Paramount, nor does one appear to be in the plans.  The definition I worked with came from Brian, and then when I talked about it with Phil and Jim, they didn't mention anything like that at all (about the spine), but they did talk about deception and the safe areas being short and long.  I'm due to interview Jim for a few minutes today actually, so I'll post more after that.  Remember I said it appears to be surrounded by hazards, but there are safe areas long and short.  Also Phil was the source of my info on only two in existence.  I've asked Phil to chime in with his thoughts.

Either way, that's a hole that will improve dramatically once it's done, and add a little extra cache to the overall character of the course.



Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Michael - The first picture is from the blue tees where most of the members play from. The 2nd picture is well in front, and a little right, of all the tees.

Jay - The bit about the spine was a direct quote straight from the book... Quaker's green has a swale instead of the spine, people have tried to call it a biarritz, which is when I start my Reef Hole bit... My initially reaction was that #13 was actually a lost Reef when I walked the course in early spring... guess not!

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
The only holes I didn't think fit the overall feel of the course were 9 and 14.  The areas around the greens didn't feel like Tilly, and I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens there.


Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jaeg, I hear ya.  Also it's not diagonally ct at QR...there's no spine in the green at either BP Yellow or Paramount.  It will improve dramatically from what's there now.

Dan, I really didn't hate 9 or 14.  I think 14 will improve because the terrain there is excellent.  Great job benching that green.  The bunkers Urbina puts in should be excellent.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 11:48:49 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Patrick_Mucci

Jay,

Preakness Hills, a 1927 Tucker, originally ended with par 3's on both nines.

George_Williams

Oak Hills in San Antonio, TX, another Tillinghast where they use to play the Texas Open, also has #9 & #18 as par 3's

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jay - I agree...  I think 9 and 14 will benefit most from Jim's work.

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