Neville and Spanish Bay

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

The Pebble Beach website mentions that Jack Neville may have done a routing for Spanish Bay nearly 50 years after his routing for PBGL.  However, no drawings have ever been found. Does anyone have any details?

[Adam Clayman]

GW, I had never heard that.  In 1969 wasn't SB still an operational quarry?  I would look upon any info the PB Co. is supplying with a healthy dose of skepticism.  Neville did do the back nine at PG in 1960.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Adam,

Here is the link:

http://www.pebblebeach.com/golf/peter-hay-golf-course/course-history/course-architects

Scroll down to see the paragraph on Jack.

[Anthony Gray]

  Is he from Philly?

  Anthony

[Kris Shreiner]

Sounds more like supposiition than confirmation that Neville did a routing. Note the caddie influence running STRONGLY thru that entire evolution of professionals there on the Peninsula. It continues today, as Cypress Point made a great call, several years back, few other club's of that stature would have in the modern era, elevating their caddie master, Casey Reamer(SP?), a classy, former PB assistant pro they brought over who is also a fine player. A perfect chioce to replace another ace, former long-time CP professional Jim Langley. Bravo CP!

There is no question that more could have been done with that SB ground than exists now. The environmental constraints were a bit bizarre and did limit somewhat the design trio's efforts. That said, some of the greens are poorly designed at best and there were no environmental excuses for that blundering.

The last 7 holes on SB are pretty stout and we always found it interesting that SB often had the highest aggregate scoring during the annual 72 hole, "Greatest Caddie Tournament in the World," when 4-man teams of caddies from PB, SB, Spyglass and CP played each course, which was usually held late in the year, when winds and lower temps could dish out some stiff weather. With the difficulty of Spy, especially before it was dumbed down in the last ten years, and the exposed nature of PB and Cyp, one would think they'd play tougher perhaps...but more often than not, SB was the bear that week. I miss playing in that tournament!

Cheers,
Kris

[Bill_McBride]

With the difficulty of Spy, especially before it was dumbed down in the last ten years, and the exposed nature of PB and Cyp, one would think they'd play tougher perhaps...but more often than not, SB was the bear that week.

Kris, could you elaborate on the "dumbing down" of Spyglass Hill?   

Sorry for the thread jack....

[astavrides]

With the difficulty of Spy, especially before it was dumbed down in the last ten years, and the exposed nature of PB and Cyp, one would think they'd play tougher perhaps...but more often than not, SB was the bear that week.

Kris, could you elaborate on the "dumbing down" of Spyglass Hill?   

Sorry for the thread jack....

they removed the ice plant from around the 4th green, but I think that increases, rather than decreases, the course's IQ.

[Jon Spaulding]

GW, I had never heard that.  In 1969 wasn't SB still an operational quarry?  I would look upon any info the PB Co. is supplying with a healthy dose of skepticism.  Neville did do the back nine at PG in 1960.

You are correct. I believe that the mine was part of the Owens Illinois mess, and closed in the 70's. The 1972 aerial shows the mine still there, 1979 does not.

But hey, Neville would have generated a unique routing negotiating the conveyor line from the beach, not to mention the dozers ON the beach. The surge pile up at the mill would have made for an all-time Alps.

Photos of the mine can be purchased from the Graham collection. 2 of them hang on my wall at work, a reminder of a bygone era when CA actually had some form of "industry".

http://www.loonhill.com/gallerySandplant.htm

[Bob_Huntley]

Adam,

Here is the link:

http://www.pebblebeach.com/golf/peter-hay-golf-course/course-history/course-architects

Scroll down to see the paragraph on Jack.

Geoffrey,

The part of the bio of Peter Hay makes a huge mistake; he was never a member of the R&A.


Bob

[Kris Shreiner]

Bill and Astavrides,

I'd be happy to and it's much more than just ice-plant removal around #4! Let me first start by saying the nasty pitch-canker, which claimed thousands of trees in the DelMonte Forest, was mother nature at work and while making certain holes easier, is not in the scope of this discussion, save one hole.

Hole #2- In what will go down in my mind as a travesty, the multilation around 2001? of the green-fronting waste bunker. In it's original, natural state,  which had the bunker sloping gently along the dune line,  this gem was as good as ANY bunker on the entire Peninsula! It was fierce, rugged and beautiful. All it needed was occasional raking, as winds and struggling players could churn it up, especially when often weeks went by before the greens crew(a team I respected greatly) would tend to it. The super at the time was not the best and management decided that the bunker was too difficult and eliminated it with a most mundane, pathetic oval replacement...criminal! Many feel that hole is nothing special. Into a 3, club South wind which often occurs during windy, storm-front conditions, that hole is a terror, and it was especially so in the older days with that bear of an epic, natural bunker.

Hole #3- Again, softened the front bunker on this par 3, which in the past required a deft recovery or it could roll right off the back of the green. They also took out significant ice-plant. Some removal was needed, especially in the immediate green surrounds, but they went overboard and denuded large swaths of it. There is a very effective recovery shot for extricating yourself from that ice plant, but you need a local (usually a caddie!) to learn it.

Hole #4- One of the best short par fours in the world...diabolical! They needed to take some out and this was a good call. It does make the hole easier. The hole is exacting enough. One of my favorite holes in the world.

Hole#5- Again, the same year they destroyed the one on #2, they carved up the VERY natural right side bunker on this par 3. The former bunker had a nice random look to it and rose to the back with an ice-plant covered nob. shots were playable, but certainly challenging. You really had to think about your miss if one attemptrd to work one into a back right pin. They mauled the character out of it and left a perfectly round saucer with a denuded crown as their masterpiece. Sad.

Hole#11- They really went to town on this one! Formerly,it had a small pond that sat about 30yds short of the green on this reachable par five. Trent Jones Sr. was shoved aside and the new creation was a maintenance "cluster" of multiple bunkers on the right side of the green approach and REMOVAL of the pond!
There had been a flooding issue one year that rendered the hole unplayable during the AT&T. The problem was a smaller than desired outflow pipe from the pond that got clogged and backed up. It was a torrential year, even by the frequently Noah-like rains that the AT&T is known to contend with then. NO REASON to totally change the character of the hole!
Some would argue that more players are tempted to go for it now as there is no water, but having seen thousands of players of all levels 'round Spy, I assure you the hole was tougher and more daunting with that pond, EVEN for pros ,because the down-sloping nature of the fairway from back where they went for it in two often led to thinned shots that found the water or shot way long as they made sure to get it over.

Hole#16- Two Monterey pines used to guard the left-side approach to this green, even with two bunkers there! When other specimen trees have checked out on other holes, they were generally replaced. To be fair Black Dog is one mean hombre, so this may be understandable. They re-did the green as well and it was a better green in it's old form, though tougher to hold, but that made it more difficult.

Hole# 17- Thay added several thru bunkers on this short four which didn't make it any better. A recovery shot out of the slippery Oregon Rye to this super-testing green was never easy and the flyer long was death! Out of the traps the good player has an easier shot and the duck blasts to the base and tries to get up and down...no way they are doing that with a play opportunity from the rough.

There are other minor tweaks through the years, but the fog of rounds past has left me with these main recollections.

Cheers,
Kris