Designing an unreachable par 5.

[Pete_Pittock]

How do you go about designing a hole which is unreachble in two by all, but is still playable for anyone who can carry a ball 100 yards?
What would be the minimum length?

[Bill_McBride]

Does the short hitter have to be able to make a 5, or just be able to finish the hole?

[Pete_Pittock]

Bill,
The bogey player should be able to get on the green in regulation, or have a realistic up and down. I figure its somewhere around 550.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Bill,
The bogey player should be able to get on the green in regulation, or have a realistic up and down. I figure its somewhere around 550.

Sadly, Mr Pittcock, you underestimate the longest of players...didn't you see Bubba Watson hit it on the green at Firestone from like 667 with Driver and 4 iron? Unreachable by all and reachable in 3 for the average/bogey player is, quite simply, not feasible anymore; though 600 would probably do the job. 550 is reachable with long irons by better players, even a good number of better country club players, let alone tour guys.

But doesn't the whole concept of multiple teeing grounds make this a moot point anyway? If the hole is unreachable for the best/longest from the back, surely the average player would not be playing from back there, yes?

[Pete_Pittock]

Jamie,
It's not Pittcock .   There has to be a yardage that the longest player cannot carry with today's technology, both off a tee and off the deck. What are those yardages? Once we know that, then we should be able to design a hole.

I watched TV as Bubba reached the 16th at Firestone. The drive had a lot of roll, and the hole is downhill. Play along and instead of saying it can't be done, try to design one on paper until you know it will be unsuccessful. Why don't you assume a Bubba drive will carry 330 in neutral conditions, or give me a different number.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Mr Pittock, sorry for getting the name wrong, sometimes I just can't read very well. Downhill or not, we saw a 667 yard hole hit in two shot with an IRON in hand.  We can use your number of 330, that's fair. Then probably 290 or thereabouts with the 3 metal second shot. So, in order for him not to be able to hit the green in two, ever, you're probably looking at 650 yards, or more, in neutral conditions. Of course then you'd have to have at least 100 yards spacing to the next tee so that the average guy can hope to play the hole and probably another 150 beyond that so that an average lady can have a decent time on the hole.  And, well, that just doesn't make sense.

Now, if we're to discount the longest of players, which we most likely should, 550 or so would probably work well. Or, you could add in some type of hazard which is a difficult carry with a 3 wood, but an easy carry with a wedge for an average player and could be played around by a less than average player. The 14th at Naval Academy comes to mind quickly. Hole is around about 490 from the back markers, but it plays significantly uphill to the green (after downhill off the tee) and has a fairly deep fronting bunker, one that could be played over easily with a short club and easily around as well, but presents quite the challenge with a 3 metal or long hybrid. I've dumped shots into that front bunker more times than I can count and probably made more birdies laying up than I did going for it.

[Bryan Izatt]

Pete,

Here it is.  All we have to do is move the tee back about 40 yards to make it 560 yards.  Then it's 330 to carry the creek and its bank, to a 30 yard wide fairway, with OOB left and jungle trees right.  Even Bubba would be nuts to attempt that carry if he cared about his score.  

The second plays gradually uphill about 30 feet.  From the layup it'd be about 290 yards.  Even Bubba doesn't carry his 3 wood 290 yards uphill.  And, there is crossing rough and bunkers in front of the green to prevent a run up shot.

Now, with a tail wind, and no cares about score, no doubt Bubba could do it in two.

From the member blue tees, it is a fairly straight forward 3 shot hole.  Layup of 220 yards, 5 wood second across the river, short iron third to the green.

[Pete_Pittock]

Bryan,
Thanks for the image. That's pretty much what I expected, but maybe with a 30-50 yard lake instead of the creek to put the green just out of range. My guess was 550 without making it too difficult for the bogey player.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Bryan,
Thanks for the image. That's pretty much what I expected, but maybe with a 30-50 yard lake instead of the creek to put the green just out of range. My guess was 550 without making it too difficult for the bogey player.

But you didn't mention anything about water features...    Adding in features like that or bunkers like I had brings a huge number of other options into play. Creeks and bunkers work much better though because the carry is far less or the penalty less severe if you can't make the carry, in the case of the bunker, than a pond. A large pond spanning side to side penalizes the lesser players far more than it does the better ones.

[Carl Rogers]

If this kind of hole were to exist .... then the difference between the forward and back tees would have to be over 325 yards??(425 yards to 750 yards) .... seems a bit over the top me.  Who would design & build it?

[Scott Warren]

Good to see John K Gismooren back posting.

I agree with him, not reachable in two by anyone, but generally reachable in three is a non-sequiteur in the modern age.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Bryan,
Thanks for the image. That's pretty much what I expected, but maybe with a 30-50 yard lake instead of the creek to put the green just out of range. My guess was 550 without making it too difficult for the bogey player.

Bogey players just love being forced to hit a three wood over lakes. You might have reached you goal of designing a hole the longest hitters can't reach, but its not a very good golf hole for the rest of us. 

[Andy Stamm]

15th at the Ross course at French Lick. There's a nice flyover here: http://www.frenchlick.com/golf/donaldross

665 from the back/485 from the front with 4 sets of tees. Uphill short of the green, so there's not much chance of a run up. It's usually been into the wind for me as well. The water is only in play from the back, and then it's only a 210 or so carry, so not too big of deal.

Great hole because the first shot is pretty open, you just want to hit it long and straight. For the second there's a fantastic bunker on the left that comes into the fairway pretty far. So, you either need to fly it leaving a short uphill approach, but that's too pretty big licks. Or, you can lay up but that leaves a long/mid iron to a par 5. Or you can play right of it, but it's not as wide and the angle is not very good from there.

[Mike Hendren]

While Ran's profile credits Ross with the long 15th at French Lick's Hill Course I'm not sure that is an original hole.  I seem to recall that the lake was added several years later, turning the 14th from a par 5 to par 4 (very likely since that green isn't compatible with the others there) and the 15th from a long par 4 to par 5 (with original green).

Can anyone confirm?

Mike

[Anthony Gray]

  Length with a hazard fronting the green. A hazzard preventing a driver for the long hitters of the tee can make the hole play longer.

  Anthony

[Bill_McBride]

.....proving yet again that designing a par 5 with Bubba Watson in mind is a fruitless project.  

[Andy Stamm]

While Ran's profile credits Ross with the long 15th at French Lick's Hill Course I'm not sure that is an original hole.  I seem to recall that the lake was added several years later, turning the 14th from a par 5 to par 4 (very likely since that green isn't compatible with the others there) and the 15th from a long par 4 to par 5 (with original green).

Can anyone confirm?

Mike

I don't know off hand, but there's a course map in the basement of the clubhouse that I'm pretty sure is of the original layout, so I bet that'd answer the question.

[Mike Hendren]

According to the staff at French Lick both the 14th and 15th were originally par fives.  The pond was subsequently expanded and new green built to turn the 14th into a par four. 

[Alex Miller]

I would suggest 18 at Industry Hills Ike Course if I hadn't been playing with my friend who knocked to the front edge in two. It's 650.

[Garland Bayley]

There should be no such thing as an unreachable par 5 for the scratch and plus handicap golfers. If you can't reach in two, that's what your handicap stroke is for.

A. Vernon Macan


Mr. Pittock,

I am going to have to get Mr. Riste to lecture you at KP next year.

[George Pazin]

Pete,

Here it is.  All we have to do is move the tee back about 40 yards to make it 560 yards.  Then it's 330 to carry the creek and its bank, to a 30 yard wide fairway, with OOB left and jungle trees right.  Even Bubba would be nuts to attempt that carry if he cared about his score.  

The second plays gradually uphill about 30 feet.  From the layup it'd be about 290 yards.  Even Bubba doesn't carry his 3 wood 290 yards uphill.  And, there is crossing rough and bunkers in front of the green to prevent a run up shot.

Now, with a tail wind, and no cares about score, no doubt Bubba could do it in two.

From the member blue tees, it is a fairly straight forward 3 shot hole.  Layup of 220 yards, 5 wood second across the river, short iron third to the green.

The other thing you do is put a water feature right in front of the green, that really makes it almost impossible to reach.

[Bill_McBride]

The European Captain at the last Ryder Cup at Valderrama in Spain (was it Seve?) made the par 5 17th unreachable by having the fairway run out at around 280 yards.  Deep rough separated the end of the fairway from the second fairway, forcing a layup second and pitch third shot to a diabolically sloped green behind a pond.  I seem to remember the young Tiger sucking a wedge back into that pond.

So you can create an unreachable par 5, but that's a very contrived way to do so.

[Will MacEwen]

Meadow Gardens in Pitt Meadows BC has a closing par 5 where you drive to a peninsula, than a second shot to an island, folowed by an approach to another island.  I imagine some guys run in up the throat of the peninsula, but it narrows as I recall.

This one may not be unreachable, but if you are willing to go crazy with islands I guess it can be done.

The hole is #18 at this link:

http://www.meadowgardens.com/golf/course/layout/

[Alex Miller]

Meadow Gardens in Pitt Meadows BC has a closing par 5 where you drive to a peninsula, than a second shot to an island, folowed by an approach to another island.  I imagine some guys run in up the throat of the peninsula, but it narrows as I recall.

This one may not be unreachable, but if you are willing to go crazy with islands I guess it can be done.

The hole is #18 at this link:

http://www.meadowgardens.com/golf/course/layout/

Just looked at the aerial. Wow, some interesting features on that course! I think the play for that hole looks like down the adjacent fairway, yes?

[Niall C]

Assuming normal run, a level site and no hazards at the landing zone, what length would the hole have to be before it were unreachable in two for everyone ?

Niall