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Terry Lavin

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Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2011, 12:30:14 PM »
Terry: How many courses have been designed by those who we recognize as gca experts - do you think that Ran can intelligently critique a course design, how about Tom Doak when he wrote the CG - just because you don't design courses doesn't mean that you have no credibility in when you critique a course.  Mickelson gave the opinion that AAC is an extremely difficult course that is not member friendly - what do you disagree with in that statement?  I am in agreement with most on this site that every course that I can think of which hosted a major championship in the US did not become a better member's course after the event. I wouldn't want to play AAC on a regular basis without an unlimited supply of free golf balls.

Jones did what AAC wanted him to do.  They wound up with an exciting finish between two no-names, but the course held up tough, which is what they wanted.  Mickelson should stick to talking about whether the course is appropriate for tournament play, not spewing some fake empathy for the membership.  I'm sure the membership would love to tell Mickelson where to go or what to do with his opinion.  He certainly won't help them attract new members.  He's an unabashed Rees basher and his comments are borderline reckless.  He virtually killed Cog Hill's chances of continuing to host the BMW championship with his unabated negativity and, unfortunately, because of his stature, others felt liberated to jump on the bandwagon.  Now, the Jemsek family, which spent upwards of $5 million to toughen its premier course now has no shot of getting an Open and will probably lost its longtime tour stop to some private club.  In my judgment, his anti-Rees crusade has gotten out of hand.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

jeffwarne

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Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2011, 12:36:12 PM »
Terry: How many courses have been designed by those who we recognize as gca experts - do you think that Ran can intelligently critique a course design, how about Tom Doak when he wrote the CG - just because you don't design courses doesn't mean that you have no credibility in when you critique a course.  Mickelson gave the opinion that AAC is an extremely difficult course that is not member friendly - what do you disagree with in that statement?  I am in agreement with most on this site that every course that I can think of which hosted a major championship in the US did not become a better member's course after the event. I wouldn't want to play AAC on a regular basis without an unlimited supply of free golf balls.

except that Mickelson was misinformed (rounds were up, not down)
If you don't like a course-fine, but don't use the members(who love their course) as your reasoning
Mickeleson should have a two minute conversation/debate/ickfest with Bones  ::) ::) ::)before he speaks to the press-the same as he does on the course ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2011, 12:44:40 PM »
Terry: How many courses have been designed by those who we recognize as gca experts - do you think that Ran can intelligently critique a course design, how about Tom Doak when he wrote the CG - just because you don't design courses doesn't mean that you have no credibility in when you critique a course.  Mickelson gave the opinion that AAC is an extremely difficult course that is not member friendly - what do you disagree with in that statement?  I am in agreement with most on this site that every course that I can think of which hosted a major championship in the US did not become a better member's course after the event. I wouldn't want to play AAC on a regular basis without an unlimited supply of free golf balls.

Jerry:

I agree with Terry that Mickelson's "false empathy for the members" is just that.  I presume there were things he didn't like about the course from his own perspective as a tournament competitor, and if so, we would be more enlightened by hearing him discuss those things.  Or, maybe you can avoid being fined for criticizing the architecture if you couch everything in terms of the members?

P.S.  I was a reasonably good designer by the time I wrote The Confidential Guide.  [Better than Ran, anyway.  ;) ]  I just hadn't had much chance to show you yet.

P.P.S.  Terry, just as Mickelson shouldn't be bashing Rees everywhere he goes because he hates what happened at Torrey Pines, you should not be bashing Phil and praising Rees because you hate what happened at Cog Hill.  Everyone should stick to one course at a time.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2011, 01:03:40 PM »
I will say, that I have no great interest in getting involved in Open-doctoring courses like these.  There seems to be no upside in it.  People blame you for whatever the hell happens the week of the tournament -- weather, set-up, who plays lousy -- as if building a new fairway bunker downrange of the old one really had anything to do with anything.

In the old days, in fact for most of the time until the recent past, people did not look to architectural changes as a necessary prelude to a major championship.  [The only real exception to this was Rees' father's few years at publicizing himself as The Open Doctor.]  It was considered enough to tweak the set-up of the course -- grow the rough, firm up the greens, etc.

What's changed is that there is no slack left in the set-up of courses.  The members have demanded tournament conditions every day, to the point that you can't make the greens any faster for the PGA than they were for ladies' day.  Indeed, they've made the greens so fast that they have had to come in and flatten the best greens -- because you can get away with a severe green that only has two reasonable hole locations for four days of a championship, but that green won't work for 365 days of member play.

Rees could not have ruined Atlanta Athletic Club, because it was never a great course at any point in history.  [Nor were Cog Hill or Torrey Pines, incidentally.]  But there are other championship venues I'd prefer to see left alone from silly architectural tweaking.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2011, 03:29:59 PM »
P.P.S.  Terry, just as Mickelson shouldn't be bashing Rees everywhere he goes because he hates what happened at Torrey Pines, you should not be bashing Phil and praising Rees because you hate what happened at Cog Hill.  Everyone should stick to one course at a time.


Tom,

I don't know how you can say that my comments amount to "praise" for Jones' work.  That would imply that I love AAC or that I love Torrey Pines, for example, and quite frankly, I don't love them.  In fact, I played Torrey and didn't like it at all; the girdling fairway bunkers on 480 yard par 4's is not my cup of tea.  What I am saying is that redoing golf courses in an effort to make them capable of defending par for a professional tournament or major is something that Jones has done and done well, in my judgment.  I didn't like Torrey but it hosted an amazing US Open.  I didn't like the look of AAC for my game, but I don't see anything wrong with taking certain clubs out of a pros hand in an "unfair" manner if he is trying to win a major championship.  In some ways, that makes the winner more capable of being a longshot, but it's their damned trophy, isn't it?  I know that the USGA says that its setup is designed to find the best player, but many times its course selection or setup policy winds up only identifying the luckiest or the pluckiest player.

To me, it seems undebatable that Rees Jones has delivered for his tournament-hosting clients on numerous occasions.  I appreciate the fact that you don't have any interest in tournament-based renovations; they are contrary to your design ethos.  That's fine.  That's a professional's prerogative.  The fact that some of us purists wouldn't spend our money or our time playing those courses is largely irrelevant.  Those courses are for the professional horses and for those members who like investing money to torture themselves and their guests.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2011, 04:06:46 PM »
I'm not sure I understand the club's motivation here.  Tough major venue=more guest play, tournament revenue and higher membership downstroke short-run.  Long-run equals more member unhappiness at the relentless grind, higher maintenance costs to maintain constant championship conditions and more money to ramp up the difficulty and keep up with the joneses and maintain prestige/rankings.  Sounds like a catch-22 to me...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2011, 04:11:29 PM »
I still say that you do not have to be a course designer to credibly critique a golf course.  By no means do I intend to imply that I have the knowledge or background to critique a course but I do stand behind my position that there are quite a few non-designers who can credibly critique a course.

On the other hand I feel that I represent the typical country club member and my view is that I would not want to be a member of a club where the course is going to beat me up every time I go out and play it.  AAC has plenty of eye candy and I am sure that the conditioning is impeccable but it doesn't look like fun for me and I cannot imagine that many golfers would view it as fun if played on a regular basis.

I don't doubt that Rees did his job and gave them what they wanted but now what?  

Philippe Binette

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Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2011, 04:16:49 PM »
Just a note on the 5) element I mentionned... about the length of the holes.

To be fair, I don't know how much the lengthening of every par 3 and 4 is Rees Jones recommandation or the governing body request.

shortening 6, 17 and 18 made the tournament better yesterday.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2011, 04:19:43 PM »
Heck, anybody can critique a golf course.  Look at the non-qualifications of 98% of the critics on this board!  I think Mickelson, as a tour professional, as a newbie architect, had no business criticizing Jones for doing what the client wanted and he had absolutely no business wiping the members' tears away.  They wanted their course to be tougher than it was for the last major.  They wanted the pros to puke all over themselves.  That's why they let Rees start whacking at their course.  They certainly didn't need Phil pissing on the final product, and doing it while acting all sympathetic to the members.  Phony.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2011, 04:23:04 PM »
I still say that you do not have to be a course designer to credibly critique a golf course.  By no means do I intend to imply that I have the knowledge or background to critique a course but I do stand behind my position that there are quite a few non-designers who can credibly critique a course.

On the other hand I feel that I represent the typical country club member and my view is that I would not want to be a member of a club where the course is going to beat me up every time I go out and play it.  AAC has plenty of eye candy and I am sure that the conditioning is impeccable but it doesn't look like fun for me and I cannot imagine that many golfers would view it as fun if played on a regular basis.

I don't doubt that Rees did his job and gave them what they wanted but now what?  

There is a club similar to this in town.One big swinging dick course,one for non-elite players.

Originally,the 2 courses were built when the club's membership was about 800--the better players in town gravitated to this place.Over the years,the membership has dwindled down to about half that number.I'm told that,today, member play is overwhelmingly heavier on the harder course.

Makes no sense to me.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2011, 04:32:51 PM »
Terry: I simply didn't see Phil's comments in the same way as you did.  He said AAC is a really tough course and he can handle it but he questioned how the members are going to handle it.  He's a good guy who was mentoring Bradley and Steele before they ever got in this position and I don't think his motive was to take them for some cash in a Tuesday match.  What do you think a 20 handicap is going to shoot on that course - don't give me slopes and ratings, what do you think he will shoot?  I don't think he sniffs 100 at 6300 yards - the play it forward program would be well applied at AAC. 

Jim Franklin

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Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2011, 04:51:30 PM »
Jerry -

I had a pretty good score at AAC. I will dig up my card and let you know, but keeping it in play certainly helps.
Mr Hurricane

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2011, 05:05:14 PM »
Jim: I don't think there is any chance that I would want to play AAC on a regular basis versus BCC.

Jim Franklin

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Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2011, 05:51:36 PM »
Me neither.
Mr Hurricane

Morgan Clawson

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Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2011, 09:27:59 PM »
I'm a 17 and I doubt I could break 100 often, even if I played it at 6200 yards.

The 4 par 3s look really tough.  The water goes right up to the front of those greens.

The wind seemed to be pretty low most of the tournament. If the wind was blowing even 10 mph, those par 3s would be really punishing.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2011, 09:36:34 PM »
This was a good course that is a worse course for Rees work.  I think the same could be said for congressional, torry pines and others. How much is Rees and how much is the client is unknown. The comment he made about Phil and Torry was stupid.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2011, 09:57:26 PM »
This was a good course that is a worse course for Rees work.  I think the same could be said for congressional, torry pines and others. How much is Rees and how much is the client is unknown. The comment he made about Phil and Torry was stupid.


Tiger,

In order to speed your recovery, I"m going to disagree with you.

Rees Jones didn't make a wrong turn into the club's driveway.

He was invited in.

And, he was invited in with a "Mission Purpose" on the club's part.

The club wanted to make changes, they wanted to host the PGA and perhaps other tournaments, as did Congressional, Torrey Pines and others.

Rees Jones did their bidding, he was the instrument of their intent.

If he didn't do it, someone else would have.

Projects like this are solicited by the club.
An architect has to present his proposal which has to be funded and approved by the club.
That's what AAC, Congressional and Torrey Pines did.
It's a process.

I"ve maintained for over a decade, despite debates with that idiot savant, TEPaul, that the clubs themselves, not the architect bear the ultimate responsibility for their golf course.  Architects are merely hired guns/professionals, doing the bidding of the club.

AAC, Congressional and Torrey Pines got what they wanted, irrespective of what those on this site think they should have gotten.

Hope you're feeling better every day.

Fight on.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2011, 10:00:52 PM »
I think one becomes an "Open Doctor" based more on connections and network than anything else.  I think it almost becomes a case of who is the most difficult to say no to.  But never the less the golf course did what was requested.  I played the course a couple of weeks before the tourney and everything was in very good shape and was being prepared to be even better.  It looked like it was.  I did not see any reason why a member could not play the course on a daily basis.  But while I can appreciate the maintenance level and the history of the course, it is not on my favorites list of Atlanta courses.  And not because I dislike RJ.  I like some of his courses.  I just think this entire mess stinks of politics.  I think there will be more said about the greensmower that damaged the green.  I mean even the weather channel was in on it.  The TPC network courses using Miniverde vs. the PGA Championship being on Champions will be advertised by each.  .Being an Open doctor is nothing but politics and with another architect on the USGA executive committee it could become interesting.  
Also, I think PM had some interesting  info but got it a little confused.  The couple of members I play with at AAC tell me the membership level is way down. ( I think tht is what he meant) I do not know that for a fact but I do know most clubs are and I know that many builders and developers were members at AAC and that industry has been killed.  Supposedly there are several classes of members now at AAC and it went from a total of 2600 to somewhere between 1700 - 2000.  Also the initiation fees are now varied and less supposedly.  The rounds were up due to guest play on the championship venue.  My bet is that PM is closer to right on a few things than not.   I know my home course will lie to your face about membership decline and participation.  Most do in a sophisticated manner.
Anyway, at the end of the day it is a well respected club with a very good maintenance level and a good staff.  The average person will allow those factors to determine good architecture for most of them and truth is the architecture is down the list as to how the club is viewed.  IMHO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2011, 10:06:43 PM »
Mike Young,

To many prospective members, the fact that a club hosted a major is a major recruiting factor.

To many existing members, it's a feather in their cap, one that they take pride in, hence it helps retention.


John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2011, 12:59:11 AM »
My son played a qualifier at Tanglewood championship course yesterday. It hosted the 74 PGA that Trevino won. It's a nice property that makes aac look flat.  What hit me though is that rees comes by his style honestly.  Rees style is very similar to what his dad did at tanglewood   Tangle woods giant bunkers looked similar to aac except that they were filled with red clay sand that was as stark against the terrain as aac white sand.  The bunkers were generally too big and numerous for the holes. The bunkers often obscured any view if the actual putting surfaces particularly on uphill shots?  This was much worse than aac.  Also an annoying usevof ornamental trees on doglegs (this likely isnt rtj doing but aac ad a lot of this. Sometimes outside corners).  Anyway I was struck by some style similarities. The ajga kids did fine with it.  There are some real nice holes there

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2011, 05:55:14 AM »
Pat M is right.  An archie is an instrument of the club, however, I wonder if the best archies can make this process more of a 50-50 deal in creating something with a bit about it.  The problem with the Rees type stuff is ANYBODY could do that.  It doesn't take a highly paid archie to merely toughen a course.  Somewhere during the process an archie should be paid for his creativity in meeting the brief.  If not, why bother with a highly paid guy?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2011, 04:52:14 PM »
No surprise. After a month off, Mickelson is back to bashing Rees Jones. This time he's picked up on his previous criticism of Dubsdread.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-mickelson-renews-criticism-of-dubsdread-course-20110914,0,4167357.story?track=rss

Quote
"Tee to green and the property, it really has great potential," Mickelson said after Wednesday's Pro-Am round. "I'd love to see a guy like a Gil Hanse or a Crenshaw Coore or Kyle Phillips or David Kidd -- guys that really know what they're doing -- come in and create something special here. Because I think that's what the family and this facility deserves."

Quote
"We all feel like the Jemsek family has done a lot for the game of golf. And this facility provides great public golf for all players. We all wish that it had turned out differently."

Quote
"A great golf course is a course that's challenging for the good player but playable for the average player," Mickelson said. "I feel like this is the exact opposite. It's playable, fine for us. We don't have any problems with it. But the average guy just can't play it."

When did Phil become a good samaritan for the "average player?"

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2011, 10:53:27 PM »
When I am in a new area. Lets say there are 8 to 10 courses available to play. Rees courses are at the bottom of my list no matter the reputation. I do not enjoy his courses built in last 10 years for the most part.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2011, 12:32:38 AM »
Do we have a cult on this board who get their jollies by nailing Rees Jones for sins committed or not?

I could go on about an architect who has done some remarkably good work here in California but did a poor job elsewhere in the State. I don't name names or continue to malign the man for a loss of of his mojo on one or more efforts.

Rees Jones bashing is an embarrassment to this site and should be muted.

Bob

Sam Morrow

Re: The Rees Jones Quandry
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2011, 01:12:45 AM »
When I am in a new area. Lets say there are 8 to 10 courses available to play. Rees courses are at the bottom of my list no matter the reputation. I do not enjoy his courses built in last 10 years for the most part.

Tiger,

 How do you like Shadow Hawk?

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