[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I respect your research. But question your analysis and judgements based on what I see as preconceive notions.

You asked, and its based on evidence, and not on an emotional attachment. Hey, if you and your cronies want to believe those stories who am I to tell you that you can't. I don't tell Scientologists what they can and cannot believe. That being said there is no disputing the last three myths have been completely shot down and the first three are in critical condition.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

A few things clarifying what I posted last night.

First, I never posted Paul's blue/red map on this or any other thread.   The only reason I have it is from a copy I made from a different thread here on GCA a few years back.

Early on this thread I posted a photo of Tom Paul's map of the routing that where it is written in the lower left corner "As Suggested by Harry S. Colt", or something to that effect.   Tom privately asked me if I had permission from Pine Valley to post it and I told him I didn't know it was not in the public domain.   Out of respect for his wishes, I deleted it.

Around the same time Paul Turner came on the thread and said he's be peeved if someone posted his photo of the blue/red map here, and I responded to Paul that I'd certainly respect his wishes, as well.

Shortly after that, someone posted the blue/red map here.  

I would appreciate you correcting your previous post.  

Thank you.


As regards some of your other questions, let me point you to this Tillinghast article from March 23, 1913, that describes the work that had been done by that time and the names of the men involved.

As regards Colt's visit, I'm not sure the original source but a number of accounts mentioned that Harry Colt's visit in late May, 1913 was to inspect the courses at Merion and Seaview, and that Crump had convinced him to come down.   Tom Paul believes that Colt stayed with Hugh Wilson while in town, which would make sense as he likely looked Colt up during his visit abroad.

First, I find it interesting that zillionaire Clarence Geist would have asked Wilson to create his dream resort course at Seaview (which based on the articles seems to already be in some type of rough existence by March 1913) if he had no prior architectural experience at that time (Merion East had opened a mere seven months prior).   Joe and I have looked for any articles indicating Colt's involvement in that course to no avail yet.

Second, it might be informative for us to ask Paul Turner if he knows of any stick routings Colt may have done, or any drawings not in blue light pencil, or any drawings on topos of land he's never seen prior.   I don't know the answers but I'm quite sure Paul does.

In any case, here is the article to help with your timeline.





Tom MacWood,

I'm glad you believe that and it explains the disagreements we've had here.

Truly, with the exception of David, and possibly Patrick (sometimes I think he just likes to argue), I'm really not sure you guys have convinced anyone else.

That's ok...as I said, I appreciate your research, and I'm quite sure we'll keep coming to different conclusions in the future, but at least I think we can talk with a degree of civility.


Tom Paul,

In your description of events posted here by Bob Huntley, I believe you made one mistake.

You mention that Tillinghast wrote an article (which I just posted above) in "May, 1913" describing some of the holes.

As you see, it was published on March 13th, 1913, which means that the holes were conceived (and routing drawn) at least two months prior, likely early March 1913.   I would suggest their conception may have even preceded the creation of the March topographical map, as tree clearing had already begun before then, which to me would indicate that he routed those holes through walking the property first, and then transposing them to the map later after it had been created..

You mentioned that the March stick-drawing map has a notation on the top which reads;

“Am not sure if the  greens are marked on this map where I marked them  on the ground - GAC”

This to me strongly suggests that he and his committee had already been out locating and staking out these holes ON THE GROUND prior to the creation of any topo map that has been produced to date with a scale suitable for routing a golf course on.

In fact, it virtually proves that Crump staked out these holes first on the ground and THEN they tried to transpose them to the map and not visa versa.   Frankly, based on the evidence I can't imagine another plausible scenario, although I'm quite sure someone here who "logically" can't accept Crump's authorship will try to come up with one.  

I think the critically ill patient just made an amazing recovery.

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

1)  We know the blue lines are definitely Colt's because these are 100% his style and match the drawings from his hand drawn and signed 18 hole booklet at PVGC.  Jim Finnegan's book shows the 17th from Colt's booklet...compare it with the blue lines on the plan: it's the same.  The roman numerals are a give away too: "a dead ringer" for Colt's other plans at Hamilton

Then, would you say it's safe to conclude that Colt presented a plan subsequent to March 1913 and prior to his departure in June 1913 ?

Yes I this must be the blue plan before the red lines were added.  It looks like a plan worked in the field because there is some confusion in on the 13th.  It looks like Colt has crossed out the 13th green with the blue pen.

The questions for me are:  Did Colt begin his routing/plan prior to his arrival at PV (1 receiving a blank topo prior, 2 receiving the stick routing prior) or did Colt begin his routing/plan after his arrival in late May 1913 ?

Probably after, but not 100% sure.  Colt listed Chicago as his destination for that 1913 trip which was his first destination.  Next he went to Toronto GC to follow up on his 1911 work there.  Tillie (him I think?) writes that Crump then called on Colt to visit PV.  So it's unclear whether PV was always on Colt's travel plans or whether it was a spur of the moment thing.  It was well publicized that "Colt of Sunningdale" was traveling to America.  

What was the date the stick routing that was placed upon the March 1913 Topo ?

Don't know. Probably April/May 1913.  It could be a bit piecemeal

Did Colt see the stick routing prior to crafting his routing, or is it possible that Colt didn't see the stick routing prior to crafting his plan ?

Don't know

[/b][/size][/color]

The blue lines also match the plan that was sold on ebay which has "as suggested by HS Colt" printed on it.  It's interesting that he outlined the major contours with his blue pen/pencil.  His visit was end of May/ Early June.

2)  Re the red lines.  
It's probably Crump's hand but it's difficult to know for sure because we don't have other examples of his drawing.  

Forgetting about authorship for a second, what was the date the Red Lines were drawn on the topo ?


[quote]Nobody knows.  But you can make rough estimates from when the 13th was uncovered.

Although I do have a lot of examples of his handwriting so it may be possible to be sure.  
That is Crump's hand on the 15th fairway and by the 14th green (in black).

But that does't automatically convey authorship of the routing.
What are his comments on # 15 and by the 14th green ?

I'm in Japan and don't have the hi-res photo but from memory the annotation to the 15th simply sates "15th Fairway"

3)  There was obviously some difficulty in deciding what to do with the swamp land where the current 14th green and 15th tee are.  
But I think the 15th tee was worked out by about 1915 and 1916:  

My eyes aren't the best, in fact I had another surgical procedure today, but it seems that there's a blue pencil image of the 14th on that Blue/Red topo.

The key would seem to be, the solution to the swamp was converting it to a pond, and did that process, either on paper or physically, coincide with the final rerouting that produced # 14 and # 15.

there's a photo showing its site and the dammed lake in a large photo album that Crump sent to Colt.  

Do we know the date of the photo ?

I agree with Tom Macwood..1915

There are also drawings by Travis showing the dammed lake I think published in 1915 with the 14th shown as a cape hole across the lake.
When you say "Cape hole across the lake" could you detail the configuration of the hole ?
Was it a par 4 from a tee near # 13 green ?

It played in roughly the same direction as the 15th.  A short 4/par 3 around the curve of the lake.  It would have been in a similar place as that par 3 drawn in red[/quote]

4) The stick diagram likely predates Colt's visit because it mostly matches Tillie's descriptions and has the 5th as a short pitch hole.  
That would mean that it was crafted between March 1913 and late May 1913.
Prior to May 1913, who had examined the land and/or topos and acted as an advisor to GAC ?

Is the stick routing solely GAC's effort or were others involved ?

It looks to my eye that there may be more than one hand but I could be wrong.  In fact the early holes that are described by Tillie are shown as stick 1-4, 18.  But other holes, that aren't used, showing fairway widths are more fleshed out

It's basically signed by Crump at the top. But there looks to be more than one drawing style on it and it needs to be looked at more closely to confirm.  The survey was done on March 1913 so it's likely the stick routing dates from around April/May 1913. Colt got there at the end of May/ early June.

I wonder if Colt worked in a vacuum on his routing, or if he was predisposed by what was presented to him upon his arrival ?

Not sure.  But I doubt he worked in a vacuum

I think the 13th was worked out by about 1914 because the 13th hole length has been extended to its correct length in that Philly Enquirer article (Colt's blue plan and his booklet have a shorter hole).

What's the date of the PE article ?

April 1914 I think. The routing is shown on that Grantland Rice thread

I'm trying to figure out if the extension of # 13 to its present location is related to or coincided with the damming of the swamp.
Could it have been a cause and effect situation whereby the introduction of one, automatically defaulted to the discovery of the other ?[/b][/size][/color]

PS I am peeved that my photo got posted on the internet!

I think it's a very valueable contribution, one that shouldn't be kept secret, but, I do understand the sensitivity on the issue of disclosure.
You should speak to Mike Cirba about that, but, I don't think he posted it with any improper intent.
I will take a closer look at it when I next visit in October.
Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

The article is more of a combination of a promotion/advertisement and reporting.

Interesting that AWT declares that the land was not discernable due to the forest of trees and dense underbrush.

The article also contians some contradictions.

But, if the date of publication is indeed March 23, 1913, it would seem to indicate that a good deal of work had already preceeded the topo survey of March 1913.

The USGS survey presented on this thread was dated 1898.  Were there other topos dated subsequent to 1898 and prior to March 1913 that were used on this project ?
It would seem as if there would have to be, especially when you collectivize Simon Carr's description of the property and AWT's description of the property.  A tract of dense forest and jungle like underbrush, a formidable looking site that didn't reveal itself to the naked eye (further debunking the train story).

Yet, by March 23 and probably at least a month earlier, clearing of the playing corridors had commenced.
It's reasonable to conclude that if AWT's piece was published on March 23, 1913 that it had been submitted previously and that the information contained in the article had been acquired prior to the submission, vis a vis on site visits or through third parties.

For the moment, taking AWT at his word, he states that on that particular tract of property, a golf course was clearly not discernable, "but through the maze of timber and underbrush the cunning eye of the expert had detected rare possibilities which delighted him"
So, who was that "expert" ?  Was it AWT himself ?  
Certainly it wouldn't be a term used to describe Crump.  He was no expert, he was a novice.
AWT didn't use plural terms "eyes" or "experts", he used the singular, so, is the expert he refers to.... himself ?

If the massive clearing was underway by February, 1913, it would seem that the planning process, the routing process had to start earlier.

Could it be that Crump and/or associates had begun visualizing the golf course prior to the purchase ?
That they had located, much like CBM at NGLA, holes and/or playing corridors PRIOR to the purchase ?

How else can one explain the purchase of the land in Oct/Nov 1912, and the rapid clearing of the playing corridors for the individual holes in the winter of 1912-1913 ?

The fact that Crump took it upon himself to buy the land, prior to the formal establishment of Pine Valley and its membership, leads me to believe that perhaps planning for the course, on site and with topos, took place prior to the purchase.

I previously asked the question, "why that 184 acre tract ?"  The nearby land was just as good in terms of rolling terrain.
Certainly the ten hole "Short Course" is proof of that.

There seems to be more than a few missing pieces to this puzzle, despite the contention of Mike Cirba, TEPaul and others, that everything that needs to be known, is known.  

Joe Bausch,

Are there any articles that you've located, prior to 03-23-13 that provide insight into the activity at PV, pre and post Oct/Nov 1912 but prior to 03-23-13 ?

Paul Turner,

If the stick routing was placed on the March, 1913 topo, in April or May, it would seem to indicate that it was crafted after the playing corridors were being cleared, which was prior to 03-23-13.

In addition, AWT's 03-23-13 article describes the first four holes rather accurately, so it would seem as though the holes had been already been designed prior to the 03-23-13 article and the obtaining of the March 1913 topo survey.

Thus it would seem logical that the March 1913 topo survey was NOT the survey they were working from.
Since "A" routing was described in AWT's 03-23-13 article, and that routing deviates from the final routing after the 4th hole, could it be that the ordering of the March, 1913 topo was for the purpose of aiding with the routing on the upper plateau, and then down to, and around or over the swamp, since that was an open item, a thorn in their planning side ?

If, as you indicated, the Red Line plan was crafted after the discovery of the 13th hole, then common sense would seem to dictate that the Red Line plan post dated Colt's Blue Line plan by a considerable amount of time.

Thanks

[Paul_Turner]

"Second, it might be informative for us to ask Paul Turner if he knows of any stick routings Colt may have done, or any drawings not in blue light pencil, or any drawings on topos of land he's never seen prior.   I don't know the answers but I'm quite sure Paul does."

Mike

Yes I do have examples of Colt doing stick drawing and merging it to a full routing plan.   Lots of examples of writing and numbers too...I think I would have a reasonable chance of confirming or dismissing whether his hand is on that stick plan.   I don't think he would have gone immediately to drawing that completed blue plan, but whether his hand is on that plan...?

 Re the blue pen...I not sure that's too significant.  He did use blue at Toronto on the routing plan but I think his Pine Valley booklet is in grey pen/pencil.  I have copies of Old Elm from the same 1913 trip but that plan is more of a "blue print"style:  a blue background with white hole outlines...as is Hamilton (1914).

Not aware of Colt routing prior to seeing a plot.  Possibly Edgbaston much later in 1936.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

As is usual, you jump to "A" conclusion and automatically exclude any and all other possible conclusions.

The 1913 topo map is not the linch pin to the method of design, as you declare.

Whatever happened to your 1910 Map of Camden County ?
Did GAC simply discard it and work in the dark (jungle)

My belief is that Crump had topos at his disposal and used them in the design.
AWT, your hero in this discussion, confirms what Simon Carr stated, that the property was dense forest and undergrowth, preventing anyone from seeing the merits of a golf course underneath.  He describes it as a veritable maze.

The difference between your approach and mine is that you have a motive, a predetermined agenda, a bias,  the protection of the status quo and/or myths, whereas my motives are simply a search for the truth, regardless of where that leads.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

I actually view it a little differently.  Of course, he walked the property some time before purchasing it.

But, I believe the most important takeaway here is that he started building the course before finishing the routing!  I believe the "excess acreage" (184 to the standard 120) and starting the first few holes tightly in the corner gave him confidence that he could work things out as he went, much as Pete Dye did much later.

It just demonstrates that golf courses get built a lot of different ways, and its not a requisite to have a routing before buying the property or even starting construction.  I do admit, the risk goes up the later you finalize most of a routing, but it does happen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I actually view it a little differently.  Of course, he walked the property some time before purchasing it.

Jeff, remember, he was familiar with the property from hunting there for years, but, when one is stalking game, one isn't visualizing bunkers

But, I believe the most important takeaway here is that he started building the course before finishing the routing!  I believe the "excess acreage" (184 to the standard 120) and starting the first few holes tightly in the corner gave him confidence that he could work things out as he went, much as Pete Dye did much later.

That's a big roll of the dice for a novice, especially one trying to build a golf course that would attract his peers, his fellow golfers

It just demonstrates that golf courses get built a lot of different ways, and its not a requisite to have a routing before buying the property or even starting construction.  I do admit, the risk goes up the later you finalize most of a routing, but it does happen.

Certainly anything is possible, but, if you were investing your money, your life savings into a project, would you risk fying by the seat of your pants like that ?

If you were trying to attract other golfers to join your club, would you design it helter skelter ?

Now, we know that there was an element of that as demonstrated by the missing holes, 12, 13, 14 and 15, but, here's a novice, a rank beginer and he buys the land, by himself in Oct/Nov of 1912 and has already routed a good deal of the course by February or earlier.
A course where the property was hostile, dense forest, jungle like undergrowth, steep slopes and swamp, and he's already routed it, with NO assistance, by February ?  ?  ?

I think it's reasonable to assume that he didn't route the course after March 1913.
I think it's reasonable to assume that he may have routed the course, in whole or in part, prior to his purchase in Oct/Nov 1912

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Well, he may have routed the course at any time, and certainly making your way through a dense forest is easier in winter than summer, as Mike's photos and my personal experience can confirm.  Not sure when the leaves come out in Clementon forests, but my guess is he routed all through the winter until then.  Just a guess, but I would say routing started after purchase in Nov 1912 because of this, and knowing that five six holes were routed by March 1913.

And, the article says others hadn't been planned yet.  That really says it all, doesn't it?

BTW, most courses do not start real routing until land purchase.  He may have walked it enough to know it had enough natural features or more than surrounding property that was also available. He may have wanted train access so he wanted to stay close to the station, etc.  This property may have been a bit cheaper than the rest for reasons unknown.  We don't know.

And, you completely over play the dense jungle aspects.  Courses have been built in dense forests for a long time.  You can get through it, you can see, sometimes you just need to get closer by walking to see what you want to see.  Surveyors can survey through dense woods, too.  I have done it.  I know it can be done.  Hell, they surveyed the entire country by 1898 in some pretty dense woods, so its not to say it couldn't have been done.

When did history come to ignoring contemporaneous accounts to substitute your judgement as to what made sense?  Crump was obviously not too worried, having his base group of members and having a dream.  And he was obviously in no hurry to route the course, build it, etc.  as history shows.  It may sound crazy, but that is what he did, as history shows, no matter how much you try to make other scenarios up.

It appears to me that he got a bit stuck and realized the opportunity to call Colt in shouldn't be wasted.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

One thing I find very interesting here is what you noted in a recent email.

For all those who argued that rich, smart people didn't buy land without already having routed a golf course on it, here's Exhibit A to the contrary.

And, it just happens to have turned out to be the greatest course in the world.


Patrick,

This January 12th, 1913 article indicates that some hole plans are already in place based on what was suggested by natural features on the ground, and discusses how those fairways "will be cleared" of trees;

He also claims the land is the "usual Jersey growth of bushes and scrub trees".

It also states that the topographical charting is a future event.

Tillinghast has also made clear he's already walked the course extensively with Crump and sees unlimited possibilities, through the scrub trees and undergrowth.

He also tells us that the course will be planned by expert golfers of Philadelphia...and that he knows of none better qualified.





Paul,

Thanks for your answers and insight on Colt.

To reiterate, since Patrick obviously cannot admit he made yet another mistake, I am NOT the one who posted your Blue/Red map here.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Not to divert, but can you email me the P&O letter which supposedly shows that CBM was still involved in the construction process at Merion?

Jim Sullivan's request for it to be posted here has strangely gone unheeded to date.

I'd be happy to share with everyone.   Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well, he may have routed the course at any time, and certainly making your way through a dense forest is easier in winter than summer, as Mike's photos and my personal experience can confirm.

Mike's photos are of a site not remotely close to PV, not even in the same state.
How can you equate photos from two distinctly different properties.

Not sure when the leaves come out in Clementon forests, but my guess is he routed all through the winter until then.  

Remember, this is the PINE BARRENS.

Just a guess, but I would say routing started after purchase in Nov 1912 because of this, and knowing that five six holes were routed by March 1913.

Think about that, a pure novice routs/designs one third of the golf course in extremely short order, on a hostile tract of land ?  ?  ?
Is being a golf course architect that easy, that simple that a rank amateur, a pure novice, could design/route six holes on a hostile tract in such short order ?  ?  ?

I guess anything is possible, but, it seems highly improbable.

And, the article says others hadn't been planned yet.  That really says it all, doesn't it?

Not really, by February, roughly 3 months after the purchase, a pure novice had already routed and was clearing and building six holes ?
On a difficult site.  That's incredible

BTW, most courses do not start real routing until land purchase.  

What's the difference between "real" routing and "conceptual" routing ?

He may have walked it enough to know it had enough natural features or more than surrounding property that was also available.
The nearby property had plenty of the same features.

He may have wanted train access so he wanted to stay close to the station, etc.  

The nearby property had the same train access.

This property may have been a bit cheaper than the rest for reasons unknown.

You take me to task for drawing reasonable conclusions, yet, speculate ad naseum about what might have happened.
Do you see the contrast ?  

We don't know.

And, you completely over play the dense jungle aspects.  Courses have been built in dense forests for a long time.

In 1910, with a complete novice at the helm ?

You can get through it, you can see, sometimes you just need to get closer by walking to see what you want to see.

AWT, your guru, tells us, words to the effect, that the course wasn't visible to the naked eye, especially that of a complete novice.
Yet, AWT, your guru, references "the expert".  The only one I can think of, who would qualify for that title is..... AWT.

Surveyors can survey through dense woods, too.  I have done it.  I know it can be done.  Hell, they surveyed the entire country by 1898 in some pretty dense woods, so its not to say it couldn't have been done.

Those surveyors are experts, trained expers, GAC was a complete novice at this.

When did history come to ignoring contemporaneous accounts to substitute your judgement as to what made sense?  

I don't believe that the contemporaneous accounts are sufficient enough to establish a clear history.
You seem to be more anxious to accept the status quo than to pursue the search for what actually happened.
I would have thought that Tom MacWood's discovery of the facts surrounding GAC's death would have ended your blind acceptance of contemporaneous accounts.

Crump was obviously not too worried, having his base group of members and having a dream.  
And he was obviously in no hurry to route the course, build it, etc.  as history shows.  

History does NOT show that he wasn't in a hurry.
History only shows that he couldn't figure out an 18 hole routing within a reasonable amount of time.
And, I can understand that because he was a rank amateur, a complete novice in this area.
And, it seemed that he was so worried, so frustrated by his inability to complete his 18 hole project that he took his own life.

Why wouldn't he be in a hurry to complete his dream, to see it come to fruition, to play and enjoy it ?

It may sound crazy, but that is what he did, as history shows, no matter how much you try to make other scenarios up.

That is NOT what history shows, that's what you want to claim that history shows.

I'd rather search for more information than claim "case closed" as you, Cirba and others would like

It appears to me that he got a bit stuck and realized the opportunity to call Colt in shouldn't be wasted.

But, wait, how stuck could he have been, he had already planned six holes, one third of the golf course and he had barely had the land for 3 months.
And, as you already told us, he was in no hurry.

That doesn't sound like a situation where you'd hit the panic button at that early date, does it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is there a copy of the stick routing that's available ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

Well, if you are going to knee jerk everything to fit in your agenda, have at it.

Since when are contemporaneous accounts not our best source?  I hear you on the Crump suicide, however, I believe social values of the day dictated that grisly circumstances be avoided for society folk.  It just happened.  It has no bearing on the every day newspaper article devoted to informing golfers of goings on that interest them. 

You might lie to avoid airing family laundry, but what possible purpose would AWT or others have in lying about the order of design?

BTW, sorry to hear about the eye procedures.  Are you an honorary member of Myopia by now?

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Are you looking to discover what happened or are you looking to tell us what you think happened?

If the latter, please just get on with it.

If the former, I think the January and March articles from Tillinghast are very valuable because the January article tells us what's been done to date and what's planned next as of that time as regards routing and hole planning, tree clearing, topographical mapping and the March article tells us what progress has been made to date as well as outlines next steps.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

What's the old saying?  You can't learn when you are talking?  As long as any of us is just offering our opinions, we aren't learning.  When you post contemporaneous articles, we can, at least if we listen to what the articles tell us, rather than try to "talk over" them.

But then, we all know AWT was a constant liar, according to Pat. 

So much of all these debates is all of us telling others what these mean.  I have always said that the simplest most direct explanation is usually the best.  As in if they tell us it six holes were routed, six holes were probably routed.  How many times have we been told that six doesn't mean six?

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

Speaking of speculation vs the historical record, Patrick keeps alluding to the creation of the lake as driving the timeline and routing that changed holes 12, 13, 14, 15 from what was originally drawn.   Actually, it seems to have been at least partly due to finding a great hole on 13 once clearing was completed in that area.   Does anyone know if that area became a lake prior to then?

Here is what Tillinghast wrote, published 1//10/1915;

[Mike Cirba]

In what certainly will be a chicken vs egg debate, the timing of the creation of the lake and discovery of the 13th hole (and subsequent need to revise others from the original plan) seem to stem from the same timeframe.

I just posted the January 1915 article from Tillinghast.

In American Golfer, December 1914 issue, this is what Tillinghast wrote;

As an illustration of the magnitude
of the work, let me tell you that in one
place, nearly twenty acres of bog will
be made into a lake and it requires but
small imaginative power to picture its
attractiveness in the days to come.
To give an idea of the demands of
Pine Valley, let me quote from the recent
report of the club secretary, Dr.
Simon Carr:
The total length of Pine Valley course is
about 6,700 yards. It is not a sluggers
course in any sense, except in the opinion
of those who fix their standards by parlor
golf played only with a mashie and putter.
The following is an analysis of the shots
up to the green, based on the supposition
of good driving from each tee:
3 brassey approach shots, at holes 4, 16,
18.
4 cleek approach shots, at holes 1, 6, 9,
13.
4 midiron approach shots, at holes 2, 11,
12, 17.
4 mashie approach shots, at holes 7, 8,
14, 15.
The one-shot holes are: No. 10 for a
short iron, No. 3 for a long iron, No. 5,
full shot with a wooden club.
This arrangement give a full, well-balanced
variety of approach shots as anyone
could wish, and they are skilfully distributed
over the round.

Note that at that time there were only 3 par threes identified.   The 14th was to come later as the January Philly Record article made clear.

It seems likely to me that the discovery of the 13th hole precipitated the need to create a lake from the bog and not the other way around.

In March 1915 Tillinghast reported the discovery of the 13th story again in American Golfer;

At Pine Valley the new
holes will be completed as
rapidly as possible. The
original plans have been
changed slightly for Mr.
Crump uncovered a magnificent
hole when he cut
the timber from the ridge
which is encountered when
the 12th green is quitted.
The drive is across a deep
depression and unless the
shot is a long one the green
will not be in sight. Along
the left of the fairway extends
a pronounced throw
which will take a hooked
ball and send it far from the "straight
and narrow." This new 13th certainly
is one of the best of any on the new
course.

[DMoriarty]

David,

You're now comparing your ramblings here to Dostoyevsky?

As if you prove my point, you can't even manage to get this right.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,  

Those were the questions you wanted me to answer?  Honestly, I thought those questions were rhetorical.

Your logic seems to be, if CBM built the course, then he must have designed it; he didn't build it therefore he didn't design it.   I don't think this follows, logically or factually.

Why wasn't CBM directly involved in building Merion?  It probably had something to do with his career on Wall Street, his home in NY, his other commitments, the fact that he was an amateur and this was essentially a hobby, etc.  Or maybe Raynor wasn't quite ready to give up his real job, either, or wasn't too keen on leaving his life in Southampton for sunny Philadelphia.  If your premise is correct, then why didn't CBM build other courses such as Women's National after having played a major role in the planning?  For the matter, why wasn't he directly involved in the construction of many of the courses that are commonly attributed to him?   As he explained it, and as Whigham later explained it, CBM wasn't even  directly involved with the construction on most of the courses for which he is credited.  So why would you require that of him in this case?

Also, I am unclear on how you draw this line in the case of Merion.   He was significantly involved with Merion.  How much more would he had to have been involved for him to have tripped this wire requiring him to stay in Philadelphia to build the course?  By some accounts, CBM spent more time onsite in Merion than he did onsite at some of the projects with which he is credited!  Yet you doubt his interest was sufficient for him to have bothered to provide them with his thoughts on hole concepts and locations?  I don't get this at all.

You also question why CBM would leave his legacy to novices, as if CBM's legacy would be made or broken depending upon what happened at Merion.   This was not the case.   CBM did not need Merion.  Rather, Merion needed CBM.   And again, you should ask the same question about the courses Raynor built.  Many of those courses contain supposed "templates" that were lacking or missing something as well.  Many were mere shadows of the originals.  Some have argued that this was even the case with the holes at NGLA.  

I also disagree with your understanding and assumptions about how these templates were applied.  It varied greatly depending upon the natural conditions, and when the natural conditions were "lacking" then chances are one could view the hole as "lacking" as well.   Also, what emerged as the important or defining characteristic of these holes was not what one might expect.   George Bahto notes that the one aspect of the Alps that was never compromised was the alps bunkering.  However, on the holes Raynor built the abrupt hill was often left off, and instead was represented by a rising fairway with the green and bunkers located past the crest of the rise.  Sound familiar?  George also makes a good point as to the reasons this might have been.  Around this time blindness - especially shots into blind greens - had come to be generally frowned upon.  Even CBM frowned upon requiring blind approaches into greens except in the cases of holes like his Alps and his Punchbowl.  And even on these holes there was some pressure to temper the blindness created by a large hill, especially where one was not there naturally.  (Don't get me wrong, the accounts are that Merion's hole was blind, whether or not hit had a high hill short of the road.)

So, does failing to include a giant hill short of the Alps bunkering make the hole lacking?   Yes, if we insist on requiring a high hill even though those there did not.   But how you go from that to CBM couldn't have come up with the hole concept or location is beyond me.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

You're now comparing your ramblings here to Dostoyevsky?

As if you prove my point, you can't even manage to get this right.

David,

If you weren't comparing your posts and my inability to decipher them to the depth of complex thought and intelligence of Dostoyevsky, then why would you possibly use that analogy?   Delusions of grandeur?

If you're talking about the spelling, please see below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Dostoyevsky

Jim,

Again, here are CBM and Whigham defining and describing what they consider an Alps hole as of December 1914.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Are you looking to discover what happened or are you looking to tell us what you think happened?

Evidently, you haven't been reading my posts, especially the ones with all the questions, questions that you claimed were answered, yet, to date, no answers have been provided.

If the latter, please just get on with it.

If the former, I think the January and March articles from Tillinghast are very valuable because the January article tells us what's been done to date and what's planned next as of that time as regards routing and hole planning, tree clearing, topographical mapping and the March article tells us what progress has been made to date as well as outlines next steps.

The January 12th and 23rd articles are helpful in establishing the time line.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

What's the old saying? 
You can't learn when you are talking? 

You should heed your own advice.

As long as any of us is just offering our opinions, we aren't learning. 
When you post contemporaneous articles, we can, at least if we listen to what the articles tell us, rather than try to "talk over" them.

Jeff, over and over and over again, contemporaneous articles have proven to be factually and conclusively flawed, yet you always seem to want to accept them when they support your position.

But then, we all know AWT was a constant liar, according to Pat. 

It's unfortunate that, like a woman scorned, you can't get over being challenged.
Now, YOU are the one lying.

So much of all these debates is all of us telling others what these mean. 
I have always said that the simplest most direct explanation is usually the best. 
As in if they tell us it six holes were routed, six holes were probably routed. 
How many times have we been told that six doesn't mean six?

I don't have any idea, who stated that six doesn't mean six ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Speaking of speculation vs the historical record, Patrick keeps alluding to the creation of the lake as driving the timeline and routing that changed holes 12, 13, 14, 15 from what was originally drawn.   

I wish you would (a) either read what I post with some degree of comprehension, (b) tell the truth, (c) both.

I theorized that perhaps there was a cause and effect between the creation of the lake and the completion of the 13th hole, or vice versa.

Actually, it seems to have been at least partly due to finding a great hole on 13 once clearing was completed in that area.   
Does anyone know if that area became a lake prior to then?

I'm hoping that there's a date on the dam works and that I can see it when I"m there in Oct.

Here is what Tillinghast wrote, published 1//10/1915;




This article is very informative because it completely refutes what you and Jeff Brauer have been saying about the land.
It states that the land was hidden by trees, timber and underbrush.
Now, here it is, almost 3 years after the purchase and the land was still hidden ?  ?  ?
We know that 22,000 trees were removed, yet, you and Jeff continue to maintain that the land was so clear that you could see everything.
Yet, AWT, contemporaneously, stated the opposite, in this article and others, as did Simon Carr..
AWT stated that the fairways were covered with and cleared of the trees.

The article also states that the revised 13th will also create a change to the 14th, but, that change couldn't occur if the land below # 13 was still a swamp, so it would seem that the two are inextricably entwined.

The date the lake was created is important, but, the date that may be more important is the date it was decided to convert the swamp to a lake

Lastly, in an earlier reply you chastised me for not getting back to discussing Pine Valley, which I did.
But, again, you've chosen to divert the thread away from PV by posting on NGLA and Merion .....AGAIN.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

I believe it was David interjecting Merion with his reply to Jim Sullivan.  

As far as clearing and undergrowth, you need to read again the Tillnghast 1913 articles.

Did you read the last paragraph of the January 1915 article where it discussed the need to create a new 14th?   

Again, it's tough to tell, but my read is that if they didn't know that the hole would be a par three in December 1914 when it was reported that a large lake would be built, but knew it in January 1915, it's tough to draw a conclusion on chicken versus egg in terms of whether the discovery of the 13th created the need to turn the bog into a lake, but it could certainly be read that way.   

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