[Patrick_Mucci]

Ok, since Patrick seems to be hiding the evidence...

Mike, that's a blatant lie and you know it.

By popular demand, here's his supposed "Smoking Gun" that "demolishes" Tillinghast's contemporaneous account of his close friend's George Crump's story on how he found the land.

Remember that Shelly, 1) Never met Crump, 2) Apparently never spoke to Tillinghast, 3) Wasn't a member until 10 years after Crump's death, 3) Wrote his book in 1982, a full 64 years after Crump's death.
 
(1) you don't KNOW if Shelly ever met Crump
(2) you don't KNOW if he ever spoke to AWT.
(3) Shelly first played PV in 1925.
(4) Shelly's book was officially sanctioned by Pine Valley.

And here's what he said, directly from the book in question.   You'll recognize the first part of the paragraph.

Patrick chose to hide the last two sentences because he didn't want everyone here to know that his supposed moking gun was a water pistol, which even Shelly conceded was only a theory on his part;

I didn't hide anything.
I quoted what Shelly stated was factual, not speculative.
You choose to believe the speculation and reject the facts.



And...here's the proof that Crump found the property hunting in the woods.  
There is no text that explains anything about the photo than what is offered;

That's an outrageous lie.
Just look to the left of the photo, it says: George Crump resting in the wilderness that BECAME PINE VALLEY.
How can you make such an outrageous claim.
Jeff Brauer and Bryan, how can you not take Mike to task for deliberately misrepresenting the facts.
Just look at the caption to the left of the photo.




And, here's the pre-construction photos that Patrick originally told us included 40-70 foot tall trees, impenetrable underbrush making the property invisible from the elevated train rails.

Mike, I have to question your character.
From where does the caption state the photo is taken ?
From the 6th fairway.
Can you see the 6th fairway from the tracks ?
With or without trees, can you see the 6th fairway from the tracks.

While the photo is a pre-construction photo, it's not a pre-clearing photo.
You do remember that they cleared 22,000 trees in preparation for the golf course.




Here's one of the clearing of the third hole...as you can see in the second photo after the hole was built, no trees were touched in the area behind the green,

How can you say that no trees were touched behind the 3rd green ?
There's a road behind the third green, so trees had to be removed to accomodate the road.
In addition, the elevation falls off dramatically behind the 3rd green.
You should also know that the elevated area in the distance behind the 3rd green is the 6th and 7th fairway corridors, which were cleared to accomodate the holes.

so in the winter one can clearly see from ground level all of the sandy undulations beyond through the mostly deciduous trees.
Mike, you're out of your mind.
The land behind the 3rd green was cleared for the house to the right and for the 6th and 7th playing corridors.
As to seeing sandy elevations, the land behind the 3rd green falls off precipitously. then rises sharply up to # 6 green.
And, ALL of that land is INVISIBLE from the train.
Why would you represent otherwise ?

When will you cease misrepresenting the facts ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

With all due respect, I think you drew the wrong conclusions from the Merion thread.  There was new info, courtesy of DM, and from an unusual source - ship logs - that changed the thinking.

We learned that a club history written in the 1980's by a club member who perused some club documents wasn't always the best history.  Now, in discussing PV, you are arguing that a club history written in the 1980's by a club member who perused some club documents shouldn't be challenged.

We also learned that contemporary accounts matter.  Tillie was there, Shelly was not.

So, if you are asking why we aren't accepting of the Shelly PV history written in the 1980's, my take is that protocol from the Merion thread taught us not to.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

With all due respect, I think you drew the wrong conclusions from the Merion thread.  There was new info, courtesy of DM, and from an unusual source - ship logs - that changed the thinking.

I'm aware of that, but, if David had just accepted the "party line" none of that would have been discovered.

So, to a degree, I think you have to question these issues when there doesn't seem to be supporting, concrete evidence substantiating them.

We learned that a club history written in the 1980's by a club member who perused some club documents wasn't always the best history.  


But, we were discussing Merion in a circa 2009 context, and thus relied on Merion's history and their website, which led us down the wrong path.

When I recently visited Pine Valley, and looked at the land, the forestation, the tracks and the relationship between those elements, the train story seemed far fetched.  Should I have ignored my sense that the logic was absent ?  That my instincts created doubt ?

But, this thread wasn't focused on the train story until Mike Cirba made it so.

The thread was about the use of topos.

When I visited PV I was struck by the difficulty of the terrain, the steep slopes, the forestation and the incredible 18 holes carved out of the terrain and wooded property.

If camping out on the property was all it took to route and design world class golf courses, everybody would be doing it.

If you examine each hole, you have to ask yourself, "how did GAC see this in the wild ?"
It seems impossible, and I think it is, absent topos.

I also know something else.
If I'm going to buy 184 acres, it's going to have been officially surveyed BEFORE I buy it.
I need to know what I'm buying, where my boundaries are.
So, I doubt that GAC just bought an undefined parcel of land.

And, if a lumber company owned it previously, perhaps surveys and topos were in there possession.  

Now, in discussing PV, you are arguing that a club history written in the 1980's by a club member who perused some club documents shouldn't be challenged.

That's your erroneous conclusion, not mine.

You didn't even know about the club history and neither did Cirba or Izatt.  All of you were clinging to the train story WITHOUT CHALLENGING IT.   WHY didn't you challenge the newspaper story/ies ?  You know how inaccurae they've proven to be, yet you accepted them as the gospel, but chose to reject Pine Valley's officially sanctioned history.

We also learned that contemporary accounts matter.  Tillie was there, Shelly was not.

So, if you weren't there, nothing you say is to be accepted ?
Evidently Pine Valley disagrees with you, prefering to accept Shelly's account over AWT's.

So, if you are asking why we aren't accepting of the Shelly PV history written in the 1980's, my take is that protocol from the Merion thread taught us not to.

That's not the lesson to be learned.

The key lies within the author.

Shelly began playing PV and associating with all those involved in PV's early history in 1925.
He was a member for about 75 years.
How do his credentials stack up to the fellow's who amended Merion's history.
I'd say they're about the best set of credentials I've ever encountered.

By the way, do newspaper articles get edited ?

By whom ?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I've read them.

I'll ask you again, why would Tillie create the train myth (as you call it).  Is it any more entertaining to read than the hunting story?  I think that Shelly provides a perfectly good interpretation for the train story.  Perhaps Crump only saw the golf possibilities of the property from the train, although he knew it from hunting - the metaphorical seeing the forest rather than the trees.

As for the Philly reaction to your efforts over the years, that really comes down to the other Tom.  You two have a personality conflict.  You both seem obsessive about your world view and being right.  I have seen some of the things that Tom has done to you and others, and I feel he went over the edge on occasion.  I'm sure you and David have had more experiences than I know about.  I, for one, don't condone those actions.  However, don't include all of us who choose to debate some of these topics with you, as part of the Philly myth defending team.  I would point out that, in my opinion, you can be quite arrogant and condescending to those of us who debate with you.

As far as the Tillie train story, I choose to accept it at face value.  I also accept the hunting story.  I think the two can be taken together and make logical sense.  I understand that you do not.  Such is life.  Perhaps in time the true story, like Wilson's trip to Scotland, will be factually proven to all.  At the moment it isn't, no matter how many times you put forward your analysis.

You had obviously not read them when prior to my post. Why do you think Crump looking out the train window stood out to Tilly?

Because it is human nature for some to exaggerate their connection to a great event, great person or great venue....and that is particularly true in sports.

What credit do you think Colt should get in the original PV design? Alison? Wilson?

[Tom MacWood]

While you say the Philly boys have a strong interest in perpetuating legends based on two incidents that got lost over time, (Wilson's Trip and Crump's suicide, both of which were known to many, BTW, even if swept under the rug or misreported later) I still believe you are over reaching, and still await your your list of further Philly legend exposes for the coming year, so I can plan my schedule.

A strong interest? That is funny. What do you think they are more interested in protecting those to incidents or who designed those two courses? You are an idiot.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac, thanks for the civil discourse.  Geez.  And to be called an idiot in a sentence with so many grammatical and spelling errors.  Wow.  You cover your lack of thought by accusing the others of being either funny or bizarre on numerous occaisons.  You may think you are being pithy with those, or your inane questions, but they are really just annoying.

As I understand it, when DM's essay came out, many at Merion were open to the idea of a CBM design, but after reading it, they simply remain unconvinced.  For that matter, I know of no one who doesn't accept the Wilson trip prior to 1912 was a mistake in their 1980s history.  Lastly, many knew of Crump's suicide when you wrote of it, but if they wanted to keep that quiet, it was an understandable, by old school thinking, whether you agree or not.

You really have no evidence, other than TePaul's rants, that anyone is protecting anything.  Those are and were unfortunate behavior and I understand your dislike of that man based on how he treats you.

I stand by my opinion that you have an agenda to discredit anything to do with TePaul and Philly, mostly because of your interaction with him after your original PV thread.  And, I note you don't come up with other examples of legends to back up your claim of numerous Philly legends.  

As always, I could be wrong, as my only evidence is how your posts on this website come across on a computer screen.  Maybe I am missing some nuance, as you might suggest an idiot would be prone to do.

Certainly, this, and Patrick's green type gasbagging are not the highest value discussion we could have on this thread.  But, I admit, I am right in there with you in this asinine arguing.

[Dan Herrmann]

Let me provide some circumstantial evidence.

Take a drive through the Pine Barrens.  Tell me you don't see areas where golf would work wonderfully.  Sandy soil, gentle elevation changes. 

TMac - I really think you need to make a trip back here and see for yourself.  I think you'd be surprised.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Oh, Dan, don't try to be so sensible with these guys.  Like I have said, I noticed the difference in landscape when I went there.  I see gaps in the trees from old photos, but Patrick prefers we look at only one photo, and then to the trees across the tracks instead of the photos of the actual site to make his irrelevant point. 

As Groucho Marx used to say, "Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

Don't know if you are on the private email list where this gets discussed by Patrick even more, always ending with "take me off your email list" (especially if a point is made he cannot refute) but I think this is ridiculous.  I agree with TMacs original assessment. I agree with Shelly.  There is probably some truth to all versions of how and when he found the land. 

I don't see the real need for anyone to prove the point one way or the other or any real way any of us can tell for sure by parsing Tillie's words of "chance glimpse" in 1913 vs "intent gaze" written in 1933.  On his main point, he was consistent, and its clear he saw, or was told by Crump that he saw that site from a train window. 

Damn George Crump for not being as specific as we would like!  Damn Tillie for not spelling it out for us, readers 100 years after the fact.  Damn them, damn them straight to hell!  Those inconsiderate bastards!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

Pine Valley isn't in the heart of the Pine Barrens.

It's at the periphery if it's in the Pine Barrens at all.

As you ride down East Atlantic Ave you can't discern anything regarding elevations north and south of the road.

Jeff,

I see that it's contageous.
Now you can't tell the truth.
I've asked to be removed from TEPaul's emails dating back to February and earlier.
As to points being made that I can't refute, would you list them for us.

As to the train story, Shelly, in his officially sanctioned history of Pine Valley, clearly refutes that myth, stating clearly that there's PROOF to the contrary, including a picture of Crump on the site that would become Pine Valley in 1909.
You can't refute that, yet, you cling to the train story, a story that appeared in newspapers.
Shelly DIRECTLY addressed the newspaper story and refuted it, demolishing the myth you, Cirba and others cling to.

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
I don't think you have any interest in golf architecture history. I don't think you have any interest in finding the truth. I think you are an idiot.

[Tom MacWood]

Are understanding of history and historical events is constantly evolving as new information is discovered. These threads show what happens when you have one side, the evolving side, questioning and bringing new information to light, and the other side fighting like hell to have for their static version of history preserved. As result you have the static people trying to discredit newspapers, magazines and ancestry.com, respected resources, when it serves their purposes. You have people falsifying transcriptions. You have people coming up with totally bizarre scenarios in order preserve their version of history. You have people trying to stop the dissemination of information, or limit it to certain parties. You have people trying to intimidate innocent and independent holders of information and those attempting to find the truth. You have people involved in these discussion that have no interest in golf architecture history defending these indefensible actions. That is why these threads turn into what they turn into....train wrecks. Although I must say despite the fact they are train wrecks a lot of good information is often discovered, and the story is evolving.

[Mike Cirba]

Yes Tom, I see you have people here purposefully shading the truth by omitting key sentences in paragraphs...

Jeez...I go away for a day and see that you and Patrick have no evidence or rational arguments left, have not convinced a single person on this thread to your "logic", and are now just writing sentences like "You are an idiot", and "You are a liar".

I really think better of both of you, but I may have over-estimated.

Wow...have a nice day.

[Tom MacWood]

Yes Tom, I see you have people here purposefully shading the truth by omitting key sentences in paragraphs...

Jeez...I go away for a day and see that you and Patrick have no evidence left, have not convinced a single person on this thread, and are now just writing sentences like "You are an idiot", and "You are a liar".

I really think better of both of you, but I may have over-estimated.

Wow...have a nice day.

Give me break. I have logically explained why the Tilly 1910 train story makes little sense.

1. Crump was not playing golf in 1910. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
2. Tilly was playing little or no golf in 1910 because of his involvement at Shawnee. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
3. Crump considered two other sites prior to settling on the current site in 1912. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
4. Every other contemporaneous source other than Tilly said Crump found the site hunting. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
5. You and no other person on this thread can explain why Crump looking out the train on this train trip was any different then GAC looking out the train window on the other fifty passes by the site.

You have presented nothing, and please did not read this as an invitation for you to post another bunch of unrelated articles for the tenth time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So, back to topos.

Crump bought 184 acres from the Lumberton Sand Company/Ireland family, and the 184 acres represented only a portion of the parcel of land that they owned.

If Crump just bought 184 acres of a larger parcel, wouldn't it have to have been surveyed for deed purposes prior to the sale ?

Interestingly enough it seems that the land purchased did not include the area near the 14th green, 15th tee, 15th fairway and 16th green.

Subsequent to the original purchase, Crump purchased additional land for lakes, roads, club buildings and lots/bungalows.

All of these parcels had to have been surveyed prior to purchase, unless you believe Mike Cirba's theory that Crump bought the land on the blind, then had it surveyed.   Who buys an undefined parcel of land, then has it surveyed to figure out what they bought ?

One would think that the Lumberton Sand Company possesed surveys and perhaps topos.
One would think that the railroad, some 30-40 years earlier, possessed topos.
The railroads were an engineering marvel in that railway lines were almost always constructed to avoid the perils of the local environment and weather, hence surveys and topos pre-dating 1910 should have existed.

It's the pre-1910 surveys and topos that interest me, as they would be the ones relied upon for the earliest assessments.

At the present time, I'm pursuing several sources to try to obtain topos circa 1910

Since Crump lived only a few miles from PV, was familiar with it from his hunting on the site, he must have known who possessed surveys and topos of the area.

Was his stick routing a product of these topos or his field expeditions ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes Tom, I see you have people here purposefully shading the truth by omitting key sentences in paragraphs...

Mike, for you to call a sentence that was purely speculation a "key" sentence, is testimony to your disengenuousness.
I presented the facts, which you rejected, in favor of speculation, which you accept because it plays to your agenda.

Jeez...I go away for a day and see that you and Patrick have no evidence or rational arguments left, have not convinced a single person on this thread to your "logic", and are now just writing sentences like "You are an idiot", and "You are a liar".

I presented the evidence, evidence that you were unaware of.
Shelly, in the history officially sanctioned by Pine Valley, debunked the train myth that appeared in the newspaper/s, thus, there's nothing for me to add on that score.

I really think better of both of you, but I may have over-estimated.

I think Tom and I agree, your ability to assess matters is woefully lacking 

Wow...have a nice day.

You too, I'm off to play golf with my son.

[Mike Cirba]

Give me break. I have logically explained why the Tilly 1910 train story makes little sense.

1. Crump was not playing golf in 1910. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
2. Tilly was playing little or no golf in 1910 because of his involvement at Shawnee. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
3. Crump considered two other sites prior to settling on the current site in 1912. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
4. Every other contemporaneous source other than Tilly said Crump found the site hunting. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
5. You and no other person on this thread can explain why Crump looking out the train on this train trip was any different then GAC looking out the train window on the other fifty passes by the site.

You have presented nothing, and please did not read this as an invitation for you to post another bunch of unrelated articles for the tenth time.

Tom,

If you call that logic, then I see why we almost never agree.  

You are the only person on this thread who interpreted Tillinghast writing in November of 1910 that Crump, Tilly (and many others including Hugh Wilson) had been sadly absent from local tournaments of late as having played no golf at all during the winter of 1909/1910, or never having traveled on a train along the Clementon stop during the entire year.   Jim Sullivan has already provided proof that Tillinghast played in the US Open that year.

Crump did consider two other sites, at least according to Baker's 1950 account...at first these guys thought they needed another course near Atlantic City.   Nobody has ever dated those events and they easily could have been in 1910, or even prior.

Please show me even one contemporaneous account that states that Crump found the site for golf while hunting.   Any will do...quote and date and source included please.

As far as you last question, perhaps because he never thought of building his own golf course prior to 1910 and the sale of his hotel.  It's only when looking that one usually sees.

[Tom MacWood]

Yes, I do call that logic, and you have to admit its kind of hard to get past No. 1

1. Crump was not playing golf in 1910. You have presented nothing to dispute that.

No golf in 1910 = No golf excursion to AC in 1910 = No train story

The story is bogus, but like I said before if you are emotionally attached to it I see no harm in you hanging on to it. In the greater scheme of things its really not that important.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

This is very simple...the reason you cannot find reporting of Crump playing golf during the winter of 1909/10 is that the friends who played together didn't play tournaments over the winter in AC...they played "ballsomes", informal matches against each other.

Tilly reporting about the tournament scene in November 10 months later had nothing to do with the previous winter.   Now, if he had written in March of 1910 that it was a shame Crump wasn't able to make their usual winter trips down to Atlantic City due to business than that's a different kettle of fish, but he didn't, did he?

It finally occurs to me why you are so desperate to make Tillinghast out to be a liar, Tom.   The entire basis of your theories is that smart, rich men didn't hire rank amateurs to design their courses, yet we have the case of CC Worthington hiring Tillinghast to design Shawnee.

Tillinghast is a target of yours for other reasons, as well, such as the damn inconvenient truth and fact that he contemporaneously reported not only his own architectural exploits, but all of the other amateur architects like Hugh Wilson, George Crump, Ab Smith, Frank Meehan, George Klauder, etc.., as well.

So, I'm sure you're thinking if you can make Tillinghast out to be a liar, you shed doubt on all these stories.

Sorry, but no one here seems to be buying it, except Patrick, and he just likes to argue for argument's sake and to tweak Tom Paul.

I think out of respect for Tillinghast I'm going to go play what's left of his work at Shawnee later this afternoon.

Have a good day.

[Tom MacWood]

Give me break. I have logically explained why the Tilly 1910 train story makes little sense.

1. Crump was not playing golf in 1910. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
2. Tilly was playing little or no golf in 1910 because of his involvement at Shawnee. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
3. Crump considered two other sites prior to settling on the current site in 1912. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
4. Every other contemporaneous source other than Tilly said Crump found the site hunting. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
5. You and no other person on this thread can explain why Crump looking out the train on this train trip was any different then GAC looking out the train window on the other fifty passes by the site.

You have presented nothing, and please did not read this as an invitation for you to post another bunch of unrelated articles for the tenth time.

Tom,

If you call that logic, then I see why we almost never agree.  

You are the only person on this thread who interpreted Tillinghast writing in November of 1910 that Crump, Tilly (and many others including Hugh Wilson) had been sadly absent from local tournaments of late as having played no golf at all during the winter of 1909/1910, or never having traveled on a train along the Clementon stop during the entire year.   Jim Sullivan has already provided proof that Tillinghast played in the US Open that year. You have presented nothing that disputes Crump was not playing golf in 1910. There is a very simple resolution....show evidence of him playing golf. I wrote Tilly was playing little or no golf. I think I have found evidence of Tily playing in three events that year. By the way it was also reported in January 1911 that Crump had been away from the game the previous year, and the fact there is no evidence of him playing would seem to confirm that.

Crump did consider two other sites, at least according to Baker's 1950 account...at first these guys thought they needed another course near Atlantic City.   Nobody has ever dated those events and they easily could have been in 1910, or even prior. There is no guessing necessary. We have the Crump's September 1912 letter to his friends documenting the order of things. Logic tells us the other sites must have been considered some time before that...probably in 1912 since most accounts say the group was formed in 1912. Tilly's 1910 train story makes little sense in light of this evidence. By the way Carr also said they first considered a site on the coast.

Please show me even one contemporaneous account that states that Crump found the site for golf while hunting.   Any will do...quote and date and source included please. So you are pleading ignorance. You know darn well Tilly is the only person who claimed he found the site by train. The quotes from Alan Wilson, Jerome Travers, Ellsworth Giles, Thomas Uzell, Joe E. Ford, and Shelley are on this thread, please go back and look them up. Don't be an idiot.

As far as you last question, perhaps because he never thought of building his own golf course prior to 1910 and the sale of his hotel.  It's only when looking that one usually sees. Huh? That is your explanation for why that particular glance out the window stood out from the other fifty. Nice try.

You have presented nothing.

[DMoriarty]

Not following discussion this closely (or much at all, really.)  While I am very curious as to when Crump first considered this land, and when he found or had made survey maps (and if/when he sent them or brought them to Colt.)  I don't think it worth arguing about whether his inspiration came by foot or by train.  

That said, if Crump had extensively hunted over this land, then he would have known it well enough to understand its possibilities for golf.  I hunted regularly during the first half of my life and the charm (and what I miss most) was getting to know the land. (This is one of the main reasons I golf, and why I would rather play one great course multiple times than play many great courses once each.)  If Crump hunted this land, his experience and knowledge would dwarf anything he could have learned from the inside of a passing train.

As for AWT's various accounts, based on what I've read, I suspect that Tillinghast had at least two tendencies when writing about golf and courses; one was to romanticize a bit to make his stories pop; another was to place himself into the story.  AWT's train story not only makes for good reading, it puts AWT on the train and close to Crump and thus close to PV.  That said, I don't doubt there is some truth to them, nor do I doubt there is some dramatic license as well. It could be at some point that Crump pointed out the site from the train, or told AWT about how one could see it from the train/ bordered the tracks.  Whatever AWT wrote, if Crump had extensively hunted over this land, then this really ought to settle the issue.
__________________________________________________

FWIW here is a list of stations along the Atlantic City RR line in question (the one which passed by PV,) excerpted from a larger table showing the performance of "Engine 1027" on its daily PHL-AC run for the months of July and August, circa 1908.  [From Google Books copy of Classic American Locomotives: The 1909 Classic on Steam Locomotive Technology.]  I've only included a portion of the table with the station list, but the bulk of the table shows that this train was consistently (every day) making the 55.5 mile trip in about 50 minutes, and traveling at around 70 mph on average.



From the accompanying description and the short travel time, I would guess that this was an express train, with no or very few stops.   I suspect that the trip would have taken much longer (or the train would have had to have been a hell of a lot faster) had they had they stopped at each of these stations.

Regardless, I've also looked on maps from the general time period and it does not appear there was a station right on the land that was to become the course, although the Clementon Station was a 1/2 mile or so to the north.   As one can see on the chart above, circa 1908 the next station after Clementon was 5 miles, Wllmstown Jct.

[Dan Herrmann]

David,
I think Clementon Park opened between 1905 and 1910.  

That said, I wonder if the Park's opening had any influence on PV - A train stopping in Clementon would certainly be moving fairly slow (getting up to speed or slowing) as it passed by what is PV today.

[Rick Sides]

Clementon Park opened in 1907 and was actually started by  a Civil War veteran.  Besides the train stopping in Clementon at Sumner Station,there was also a trolley that ran from the city of Camden,NJ to the park

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Good post..I would tend to agree with a lot of your points.

Here's some additional information on the train line that ran from Camden to Atlantic City.   The Sumner Station was located right about where the guard gate is today along the first fairway.

http://www.sjrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Station_Pages_for_the_Atlantic_City_Railroad

Patrick/Tom MacWood

Now, can we move on to a discussion of topographical maps and how they were used at Pine Valley?

Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Crump purchased 184 acres of a much larger tract from Lumberton/Ireland in Oct/Nov 1912.
The question I have, is what comprised the tract he purchased.
Crump purchased additional land subsequently.
The subsequent purchase appears to be land with lakes/ponds, and the only lakes/ponds I know of on the property are at the northern end, influencing holes # 14, 15, 16, and 18.  One of the subsequent purchases was in July 1917 for 325 acres.

It's also reported that the initial routing was incomplete, only containing 14 holes, with holes 12, 13, 14 and 15 missing.

Could it be, like Sand Hills, that additional land was purchased to accomodate/site those holes, in part or completely ?

In July of 1917, PV purchased an additional 325 acres from Ireland.
I'd like to know the area of that tract and if any of that tract included # 12, 13, 14 or 15 ?
And, if there's a survey or topo associated with that tract.
At Crump's death in January of 1918 those four holes hadn't been completed.
A question is: at what stage were they in on January, 1918 ? non-existant, conceptualized, under construction ?
As of early 1919, the holes hadn't been completed and wouldn't be completed and opened for play until the summer of 1920.
Did the purchase of the 325 acres include portions of # 12, 13, 14 and 15 ?

After the purchase in Oct/Nov 1912, Reports indicate that Crump commenced clearing immediately and continued to do so into the early spring of 1913.  Colt arrives in May of 1913.  Reports further indicate that Crump ONLY cleared land intended for golf holes, although I seem to recall that there were reports of excess clearing due to the fact that there were alternate considerations being weighed, and that this excess clearing was partially responsible for the extensive planting program that would follow.

So, Once Crump buys the land, he immediately clears it, it appears that he also has solicited 18 Guardian Angels to inititally fund the course and design each hole, a plan later abandoned.

I forget the date of Crump's stick routing, but, perhaps one of the Merionettes who lurks and sends 38 emails a day on this subject can refresh our memories.  

Reports also indicate that Colt was paid $ 10,000 for his consulting work.

One of the questions I have is:  Did Crump send Colt a survey/topo prior to his arrival on site ?
Prior to HSC's agreement to visit ?

If Crump cleared the land intended for the golf course in late 1912, early 1913, a general plan must have existed as early as fall/winter 1912.  If a plan existed as early as fall/winter 1912, was it based on a survey/topo made prior to fall/winter of 1912 ?
And if so, what was the nature of that plan ?  Survey ?  Topo ?  Both ?

What's also interesting is that the large map that hangs in a room at PV, dated 1927, gives HS Colt and Crump equal credit for the course as it existed in 1927.  Baker gives Colt credit for the design.  George Thomas gives equal credit for the design.  In October of 1914, Colt wrote that he layed Pine Valley out the previous year.

Irrespective of the weighting of credit, it seems highly unlikely, that an architect, even a very talented architect, could visit a site, previously unseen, and within short order, design a masterpiece absent topos.

There had to be topos prior to May 1913.  Topos that Crump and Colt relied on.

Where are they ?

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

There were definitely Topos before 1913.   Reportedly, beginning circa 1880's the New Jersey Geological Survey created a detailed topographic atlas of the entire state with of 1 inch = three miles and the contour interval 10 feet. The maps were sold to the public for 25 cents per sheet, including postage.  The maps were reportedly revised in the first decade of last century at a scale of 1 inch = one foot and the same contour interval. These were also available for purchase. The maps were revised using this base information multiple times after.

So while I don't have a copy of one of these pre-Pine Valley topo sheets, they certainly existed.  This from a NJ Geological Survey Report from 1896:  "During the summer W. R. Kelly, of Lindenwold, bored a three inch well upon the premises of Mrs. Anna B. Glover, on the western slope of the 184-foot hill to the eastward of Clementon. The well is located upon the 150-foot contour line of the Survey's topographical map, and is along the road leading from Clementon to Berlin. Measured by a direct line upon the map, it is distant one and three-fifths miles estward from Clementon station, upon the Reading Railroad Company's route to Atlantic City . . . ."  There are numerous other references to the top map in this report (and others from the same time period, including information indicating that the interval must have been 10 yard at the most.

These early surveys provided the basis for NJ maps for decades thereafter, (see 1913 map below in response to Mike.) Below is a revision created in 1958, but the map itself makes clear that the base information on the map (the topographical information) dates back to the "ORIGINAL SURVEY AND REVISIONS to 1903 MADE UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF C. C. VERMEULE, TOPOGRAPHER." (Vermeule was in charge of all the early surveying.) In other words, while features such as roads and golf courses were obviously added and/or changed, the atlas sheet was  still relying on the original surveys (and early revisions) conducted by Vermeule from the 1880's through 1903.  So a NJGS map pre-PV would look like this one, only less clutter of the man-added features such as roads, buildings, golf courses, and place names.



Crump et.al probably wanted a topo with smaller than 10 foot contour intervals, but the early survey combined with knowledge of the property may have been a good place to start.  

__________________________________________________

Dan Herrman,

Looking at the train schedule above, it seems there were express trains to Atlantic City.  There is no way that train was stopping in Clementon, unless you think it had time for a stop in Clementon then get going again during the 8 minutes and 9.1 miles between Magnolia and Wllmstwn Jct.  Other local trains must have stopped, but would it make much sense for these guys to have been riding anything but the express if they were traveling from PHL to Atlantic City?   Sure it is possible they hopped a local and were settled in for a long ride, but we've got to stop confusing mere possibility with solid factual support.  

And it really doesn't matter how fast the train may have been traveling, does it? Had Crump already hunted over the land as reported, then he surely didn't discover the same land from a train, even if the train had been traveling at 5 mph while Crump was standing on top for a better view.
__________________________________________________


Mike Cirba,  If you agree with my a lot of my post then why have you been going on and on about how Crump discoverd the land from a passing train? If Crump had previously been hunting over the same land, then he didn't discover it from a passing train.  One rarely "discover" one's own yard by riding by and pointing at it.

As for your link, what "additional information" do you think it provides?  I'd say it is useless to our purposes because it is not only undated, but also it was obviously created after Pine Valley was built.  Look again at the list I posted above.  There is no Sumner Station on that list. Here is a 1913 map on which I've marked the approx. location of the course in green.  Clementon Station is there, but again, no Sumner Station. Whether or not Sumner Station ever existed prior to Pine Valley, it doesn't seem to have been an active station during the specific period we are discussing.  Perhaps it was a freight station associated with the quarrying activities, but was no longer in use.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()