[Mark Saltzman]

To see my other photo tours completed thus far from this trip:

Sanctuary, CO: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48714.0.html
Prairie Club (Dunes), NE: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48734.0.html
Awarii Dunes, NE: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48784.0.html
Wild Horse, NE: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48807.0.html
Golf Club at Bear Dance, CO: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48903.0.html
Coeur D'Alene Resort, ID: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48906.0.html
Wine Valley, WA: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48960.0.html



It has been over a month since I played TPC (Pines) and many rounds and golf courses in the middle so the level of detail I can articulate is certainly diminished.  Nevertheless, I will do my best to accurately display TPC.

General Thoughts:

1) Pines is nowhere near the calibre of golf course as the Dunes.  Using the GCA-style of splitting 10 rounds, I would likely play 8 on the Dunes and 2 on the Pines.

2) The options off the tee at the Dunes are not present on the Pines.  There is certainly width in many fairways but there is often only one place that makes sense to hit a tee shot.

3) The greens are much smaller than the Dunes (but still much bigger than an average golf course) and many have very severe internal contouring making some of the green feel like several greens in one.

4) The routing is quite good.  There are only two awkward walks and the course is constantly changing directions (except for the stretch from 12-16, which played straight into the wind when I played).

5) There are too many uninteresting holes (in my opinion) for this course to be considered anything more than just OK or good.


I played the course twice from two sets of tees, both par 73: The black tees (7403 yards, 75.1/133) and the white tees (6825 yards, 72.4/127).

Yardages will be from the black tees unless otherwise noted.






Hole 1: Par 4, 419 Yards

A rather tame opening hole to ease you into the round.  There is tremendous width on this hole as the bunkers on the left are unreachable
by most (the hole usually plays into the wind).  Keep the ball somewhere out of the tall grass off the tee.




The approach is basically the same from all angles.  A very large green with no fronting hazards and lots of room to miss (short, left, long, right are OK) to accept would should be a long-iron or hybrid if the wind is blowing.







The green is very big and largely circular in shape.  It is very tame by Pines standards with only a single large ridge bisecting the green into two halves (left and right). Hit the ball on the correct half of the green and you will have a straightforward putt.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 2: Par 5, 548 Yards

Easily the best par 5 on the Pines course.  This hole has all the options off the tee that make the Dunes so good.


There is a prominent centerline bunker.  Lay it up short of the centerline, try to carry it, play left or play right.  All options make sense.
Short leaves the most difficult and blind layup but has no danger on the tee shot.
Left leaves a poorer angle than right but is less likely to be blind and leaves the shortest approach
Right is semi-blind and longer but the best angle
Over is really the best option but you need the right wind conditions to make this possible.

Black tee




White tee (about 490 yards)




From right of centerline (some view of green from here)




From left of the centerline the green is fully in view but a lay-up or an attempt at the green in two will have to carry all of the fairway bunkers.





If you carry the centerline bunkers you will kick hard forward leaving a 200 yard approach that should look like this:





Shots that are successfully layed up with have an approach from about 100 yards that looks like this:





Green is at a diagonal to the approach for someone going for it in two, but third shots can take advantage of the full width of the green.

A single large hump protects front/right pin positions.




A very difficult back-left pin position is available, though there are some slopes that will keep good shots from running over the green.

[Ron Farris]

Bumping to page 1.  I have a few construction and grow-in picks that I will try to post as you go.

[Ron Farris]

Oops on the picture.

[Ron Farris]

[RJ_Daley]

I'm beginning to think this is the greatest Hoax ever... better than Gillette Silver!!!  All these great courses in one trip with excellent photos that really do give you a visual idea that you are right there for the round; is this too good to be true? 

Does Mark have his own plane and fly?  After this series Mark, could you start a series on investment advice for the intrepid golf architecture seeker?   

[Mark Saltzman]

I'm beginning to think this is the greatest Hoax ever... better than Gillette Silver!!!  All these great courses in one trip with excellent photos that really do give you a visual idea that you are right there for the round; is this too good to be true? 

Does Mark have his own plane and fly?  After this series Mark, could you start a series on investment advice for the intrepid golf architecture seeker?   

RJ,

Don't have my own plane, but I'm always happy to catch a ride on commercial to play golf.  I really was fortunate to go on such an unforgettable trip.  Most trips I go on have a single 'highlight' course and then other OK courses to fill the itinerary.  This one just had no let up.

Glad you're enjoying the tours.  Stay tuned, several more to come...

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 3: Par 3, 168 Yards

The first of two very strong one-shotters on the front nine of the Pines.  Though short on the scorecard this hole plays into the prevailing wind and when it's blowing is one difficult hole. 

Hole 3 features a very wide green and is one of the few holes where the ground game is not an option.  Tee shots at the left bunker will catch a subtle ridge that will bring the ball all the way down to the left fringe.





The bunkers are actually farther short of the green than they appear from the tee allowing shots to run onto the green.  BUT, significant contouring means that shots landing short are very subject to chance and could kick into the front-left bunker.




The third green has more tilt than contour (though there a couple of humps and bumps to be found on the green).  The left side of the green gently slopes to the left and the right slide slopes to the right.  Off the tee you really want to find the right half of the green or you will have a very difficult uphill then downhill putt.


Left edge of green:





Right edge of green:

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 4: Par 4, 434 Yards - Yardage from white tee

This hole played straight into the wind both times I played. I wonder if this is the prevailing wind as there is a significant carry to reach the fairway from the back tee - one I could not make into a three-club wind.  I took the Ballyneal approach and picked a different tee for the hole.


Playing straight into the wind, few players will have less than hybrid into this green.  Off the tee the goal is to find the short grass.  Those striking it well will attempt to skirt the left fairway bunker.




From the centre of the fairway, one must deal with a series of three bunkers than run diagonally between 50 and 100 yards short of the green.  I didn't like these bunkers.  I felt they would penalize the high handicapper (in their lay-up/fairway wood landing area) while having little effect on the low handicapper (can carry them with ease). 




Tee shots that flirt with the left bunker off the tee will have a clearer look at the green.





The green has plenty of run-off areas (aka room to miss) in all directions.

[RJ_Daley]

I'm stunned by the greenery compared to our visit there last Oct.  It is looking more like a course in Northern WI or Minn than the prairie. 

The two courses of Graham Marsh that I've played, PCPines and Sutton Bay, were fun fun fun.  I don't know to what extent Mr Marsh shaped and created golf features, and how much he shaped green sites at Pines course, but he ended up with a very fine golf course.  Perhaps a bit more comfortable for a higher handi like myself, but I can't imagine a good player like Mark bowled it over... or did you, Mark?    I'd have to say that the complexity of green sites and surrounds along with width and options leave enough to learn and experience over many plays on the Pines course before one might say they are beginning to learn her charms. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Regarding hole #2...

"Green is at a diagonal to the approach for someone going for it in two, but third shots can take advantage of the full width of the green."

Can you take full advantage of the full depth of the green, by coming in from farther right? Would you want to?

[Kevin Pallier]

Mark

How many P4s and P5s are bunkered on both sides of the fairway ?

[Mark Saltzman]

Perhaps a bit more comfortable for a higher handi like myself, but I can't imagine a good player like Mark bowled it over... or did you, Mark? 

RJ,

Even though I played very well at the Pines, I had one of my highest scores of the trip.  With a bit of wind and the severe undulations on the green par will always be protected.  The type of course where you shouldn't make too many doubles but to score well you're going to have to make a bunch of pretty long par putts.

[Mark Saltzman]

Regarding hole #2...

"Green is at a diagonal to the approach for someone going for it in two, but third shots can take advantage of the full width of the green."

Can you take full advantage of the full depth of the green, by coming in from farther right? Would you want to?

Ron,

when you change the angle of approach into the green by almost 90 degrees, does depth become width and width become depth?  It kind of does in my mind.

The advantage in coming in from the right is simply that you can run the ball onto the green and not have to carry a bunker on the approach.  No interesting side or backboards that I can recall.

Somehow I don't think I answered your question.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark

How many P4s and P5s are bunkered on both sides of the fairway ?

Kevin,

off the top of my head:

1, 2, 5, 7, 9, 13, though I need to look at pictures to confirm.

There is lots of width though.

[Ronald Montesano]

To a degree...is there an advantage in going farther right on the second? I would much rather have more green depth than width to work an approach in. I think that width favors the guy who knows his distance and might push/pull or draw/fade in error, whereas the depth option favors the straighter player who likes options (fly it in, run it, bump and check.)

[Mark Saltzman]

To a degree...is there an advantage in going farther right on the second? I would much rather have more green depth than width to work an approach in. I think that width favors the guy who knows his distance and might push/pull or draw/fade in error, whereas the depth option favors the straighter player who likes options (fly it in, run it, bump and check.)

Understood and the answer is no.  In fact, the player who hits the ball solidly but offline is arguably worse-off from the right as greenside bunkers are now more left/right than long/short.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 5: Par 4, 416 Yards

Very few visual clues off the tee.  Take it as far right as you dare (it is not that long a carry), but the easier approach is from the left.  Long hitters can aim well right and be left with 100 yards or less into the green




A tee shot that is hit about 200 yards from the white tee will leave this view.  The green is almost entirely blind with only half of the flagstick being visible.  There is also some contouring short/right of the green from this angle which will kick shots that land short of the green over the green.




A perfect tee shot leaves this view from about 140 yards out.




There is some serious contouring, forming something of a bowl, on the right portion of the green.  Interesting that the contouring is placed on the right and there is no doubt there is the more difficult half of the green to find from the fairway.





The bowl itself is rather severe.  Most approach shots that are long enough to get into the bowl will end up rolling off the back of the green into the fringe (though this is preferred to having to putt/chip into the bowl from short of the green).

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 6: Par 3, 159 Yards

An awesome par 3 that felt inspiring by 16 at Pasatiempo in both the shape and undulation of the green.  The green is huge and is nothing more than a short-iron, but finding the right portion of the green will require a good combination of luck and skill.  Undulations on the green are large and numerous and only a player that knows the course very well will be able to accurately predict how his ball will bounce.

Black Tee




White Tee




From short-right approaching the green - front pins are treacherous with a massive false-front and deep bunkering.  Also there is much more room over the left bunkers than appears from the tee.




From front-right




From left





Running through the centre of the green is a deep swale





From back-left edge of green - several tiers are obvious





Shots long are dead.  I was surprised at the shape of the run-off over the green as shots that are just a little long will accelerate until they find the tall grass.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 7: Par 5, 616 Yards

A long par 5 that is way better from the tips than the whites.  The fairway bunkering is clearly designed with the black tee in mind.  All of the fairway bunkers in view from the whites are easily carryable (less than 175 yards) and not in play.  The tee shot from the whites feels forced and awkward.  Smart players will simply lay-up off the tee, trying to hit it about 215 yards before the fairway narrows.  If you want to hit driver, it will be to a blind area over the left bunker where the fairway narrows (I don't think it should - try to encourage aggressive play here).

From the black tee all of the bunkers are very in play and one does not need to worry about running out of fairway. 

Black Tee







White Tee (530 Yards)





The second shot is almost completely blind.  Fortunately, there is lots of room and nothing surprising over the hill.




Once over the hill you find a large fairway that slopes hard down and left to right.  Really a simple lay-up to setup a fairly simple third.




From left of green




From behind green - Notice the bunker that is completely hidden from the fairway but visible from behind the green.  No doubt some players that find this bunker will call it unfair.  Maybe it is, but I liked it.  I felt it kept players honest on the lay-up.  Don't just bust 3-wood down the right or you may just trickle into this bunker (anything with any speed will run right over it).  The lay-up was simple.  This gives players a little something to think about.

[Ronald Montesano]

Mark,

In the hidden bunker on #7, does the floor of the bunker force a downhill bunker shot? I would imagine that to be even more unfair than the bunker being hidden.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

In the hidden bunker on #7, does the floor of the bunker force a downhill bunker shot? I would imagine that to be even more unfair than the bunker being hidden.

Ron,

Good question and I honestly have no idea.  I remember the bunker being very small so a shot rolling with any speed would roll right over the bunker.  Thus, the bunker probably does not have much flat area and shots may face a downhill bunker shot.  This does seem like a severe penalty for a blind hazard.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 8: Par 4, 462 Yards

The first of two parallel holes.  This one, a long par 4, generally plays downwind.  The next, a short 4, plays into a headwind.


The tee shot is semi-blind and must avoid a large set of bunkers to the right.  Downwind these are easily carry-able, providing plenty of width off the tee, though an approach from the left is clearly preferred.  However, significant mounding down the left makes it difficult to keep the ball from rolling down to the right side of the fairway.

Black tee




White tee (429 yards)




From beginning of fairway the bunkering is more easily seen:




The approach from the middle of the fairway is uphill but the pin is clearly in view




Tee shots that bail right have this view:  The pin is basically right over the middle of the bunker.




Another very undulating green given the length of the hole.




8 has one of the largest collection areas I have ever seen over the green.  It is flat and recoveries from this area are fairly simple.  Shots will be coming into this green very 'hot' being uphill and downwind and I suppose anything less than this could be deemed unfair.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

Just based on the pictures i'm seeing so far... from what I've seen of this course and the other one...this one looks more interesting to me than the Dunes.  It always hard to tell without being there but this second course looks a bit more intimate and perhaps a bit more defined.

Kalen

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Just based on the pictures i'm seeing so far... from what I've seen of this course and the other one...this one looks more interesting to me than the Dunes.  It always hard to tell without being there but this second course looks a bit more intimate and perhaps a bit more defined.

Kalen

Kalen,

of course, to each his own.  But I much preferred the Dunes over the Pines.  I agree that Pines is more defined and that may be why I liked Dunes more.  Pines felt like a normal golf course.  It has more width than most that you will play, but it felt like a normal golf course.  Dunes is in a category by itself from all the golf courses I have played.  None of Ballyneal, Sand Hills or Dismal felt anywhere near as 'big' as the Dunes.  It is hard to explain, but the Dunes, more than any other course, felt like it could be 100 different golf courses in one.  Different tees, different wind, different pin positions and you basically throw what you thought you knew about the course out the window and go learn to play a new course.  That was something special to me.

And the back 9 of the Pines is nowhere near the quality of the front (just my opinion, of course). 

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