[Mike_Cocking]

3 and 4 are wondeful short fours and different to any of the other drivable fours on the sandbelt.

3 is all about leaving yourself the right distance into the minauture green (less than 300m2!).  Like most of the greens at woodlands its elevated and rock hard (especially back in the 80's and early 90's when John Sloan was the Superintendent).  Instead of there being a heroic style tee shot it was one of the few great short fours where you couldn't see the green from the tee and yet it worked terrifically.  Hitting a driver or 3 wood was still an option but a smelly 30 or 40 metre pitch to that green was not the right leave.  Ideally you need to be hitting a fullish lob or sand wedge to get the right amount of spin and stop the ball bouncing into the hollows or bunkers at the rear.

The club changed the hole a few years ago - opening up the corner and putting in some bunkers but I much preferred the old version.

I don't know about Woodlands not having a unique character to distinguish itself from its neighbours.  As a broad brush sure the sandbelt clubs are have some similarities, but Woodlands is a much different course to YY, Comm, KH or Royal.    

[Tom Kelly]

Hi,

I've only just signed up to GCA so I'm a bit late into the conversation, but thanks to a certain Mike Cocking and John Sloan at what was MCGD I worked at Woodlands for a few months while I was in Australia in 09/10 and loved the place. I thought it was pity Woodlands seemed to get omitted from the list of the great 'sandbelt' courses even if it may not officially be quite on the sandbelt (?) and with the compact routing and nature of the course it will not get the opportunity to stage a major tournament to help raise its profile...though as Tom Doak says maybe/hopefully his involvement might help get it mentioned a bit more?

Coming back to the compact routing of the course, does anybody know why the land at the north east corner alongside the 6th of the course wasn't originally used in the design? There seems to be allot of space in the trees in that corner near the new maintenance shed which the club owns and is not used. I know they were considering putting in a new irrigation reservoir either there or in the trees behind the 16th green, but surely when the course was first built they would have made use of this land? Have the club always owned these areas?

Mike Cocking and Tom Doak, I know when I was there a new front tee on the 1st was built to be used for the society golfers as they were having a few 'safety issues' with the clubhouse getting 'peppered' with golf balls! A couple of panes of glass on the new patio and a few roof tiles were smashed and I myself nearly got hit a couple of times whilst working out front of the main entrance. With this in mind, is the 1st going to be completely re-designed with a new green being built in the area behind the current 1st green where the old maintenance shed was and using the new tees permanently? Maybe using the current green-side bunkers as fairway bunkering and giving the option to change the 9th green and/or lengthen the 10th? I heard a few suggestions this maybe the next big plan? Also I would assume then the 2nd would be shortened to a long par 4 considering the long walk back/safety issues and also the current issues they have with the back tee and the road.

I am hoping all of this will come to fruition as the 1st and 2nd are clearly the weakest holes on the course at the moment in my opinion.

As for the 3rd please take out the second fairway bunker on the right as Mike stated was added fairly recently. I thought it really put people off even attempting to drive the green as it made the landing area almost non-existent. I thought it could make the hole more fun to offer the option even if it is a bit of a fools errand trying for the green considering its size and protection as Mike mentioned.

Sorry for the essay!

Cheers

p.s. Mike thanks again for all your help while I was down under and I hope everything at Ogilvy-Clayton is going well!

[Jason Topp]

The 3rd was the point where I realized - this place is cool.

[Bruce Hardie]

3rd is a little one dimensional from the second visit onwards (third visit for slow learners).

It always feels like I'm trying to flick a wedge onto a kitchen table surrounded by sand.

[Mike_Clayton]

The 3rd is a really good hole - an example of a really tough pitch shot that can never be taken for granted and is never easy.
It is a much easier shot from 80 yards than 100 and easier from 100 that 120.It is also difficult from close - 40 - 50 meters.
It is also a hole that I think would be subject to severe criticism if it was built today because the green is all but unhittable for average players from more than 130 yards away.
The bunkers shots are also not particularly playable for the less than competent.
It is one dimensional on one sense - you drive to 80 meters and pitch to the middle of the green.It is a real test of execution.
The next hole - the 270 yard 4th - poses an entirely different question and is multi-dimensional.

[Bruce Hardie]

I kinda like having 3 and 4 so close together as it allows their contrasts to be even more evident than if they were spread out in the round.

I wonder if 3 would be better if taking the corner on were a plausible option rather than a prelude for some tricky bunker action.

[Mike_Clayton]

Bruce,

Arguably it was a better hole before the new bunkers were added to the corner a decade or so ago.

[Kyle Henderson]

The 4th is a standout, original short par 4. While the elevated green is quite deep, it offers very little margin for lateral deviation. As such, it offers a challenging approach even for players with impeccable distance control.

In the distance, below a gap in trees at the edge of the property, the elevated green is seen catching its first rays of morning light.


The sole fairway bunker is easily cleared by most golfers, but it does constrict play for those hoping to lay far enough back from the green to play a high-spinning wedge shot.


While the green is easily within reach from the tee by better players, its exceedingly narrow nature will almost assuredly cast away approaches played from any significant distance. A wide swath of tight turf allows players to choose from multiple angle of attack, so one can plan the position of their misses and use any club from a putter to a 3-wood to chip on.


A look back to the tee from the green’s left side provides a better sense of scale for the high and steep borders of the green complex.

[Tom Kelly]

Great great hole, pity about the backdrop.....hopefully the trees along the fence line will one day screen the warehouse from view.

[Jason Topp]

Might be my favorite driveable par four but I would need to play it a few times to make sure I understand the options.  This hole could be built anywhere but I have never seen another one like it.

[Patrick Kiser]

Looks like a very cool green.

How did those side swales off the green play like?

[Bruce Hardie]

That front left swale can be used to feed a drive towards the green (and my first ever eagle), but if it doesn't work out you can end up pin high and short sided. Actually any miss of this green will leave you short sided.

Play this one then think about all those incongruous sub 300 yard par 4s that are shoe horned into courses everywhere that seem to exist solely as a means to link a couple of holes together and realise you could plonk this down over the top and get a much better result in the main.

[Mike_Clayton]

You really have to miss this green right in line with the front. A yard either side makes the shot slightly more difficult - obviously depending a bit on where the pin is cut -  and ten yards out to either side and you are in trouble, especially in a tournament when the greens are firm and fast.

[David_Elvins]

the fourth is one of my favorite holes in golf.  If it was in Scotland, MacDonald and Raynor would have built a hundred of them in America.  It has such brilliant, simple strategies.  The number of double and triple bogies (mixed in with birdies) you see on this hole in torunament golf is amazing. 

Great great hole, pity about the backdrop.....hopefully the trees along the fence line will one day screen the warehouse from view.

I heard a story once that Greg Norman landed his tee shot on the green.  the green was that hard that the second bounce was on the road and the ball ended up on the factory roof.  Not sure if it is true or not. 

[Simon Kofoed]

When the green is firm and slick the 4th can make a pro look like a 20 handicapper.

I remember folllowing a pro (good enough to be a runner up in a Aust. Open) at the Vic Open 2005 come to the 4th tee 3 under after 3 holes in his round.

The pin was on the right side, mid depth and he proceeded to take 7 shots (only using two clubs).

3-wood tee shot pin high left, 3-wood chip accross green to right, 3-wood chip onto green 8 feet past hole, putt off green to right, 3-wood chip back onto green, 2 putts.

After his tee shot he would have been no more than 12-15 paces from the hole.

[Kevin Pallier]

This hole could be built anywhere but I have never seen another one like it.

Jason

Mike Clayton has used similar themes at a couple of other courses he has designed in Australia: The Lakes and Royal Qld. At least someone has recognised the greatness of the hole style.

[Kyle Henderson]

This hole could be built anywhere but I have never seen another one like it.

Jason

Mike Clayton has used similar themes at a couple of other courses he has designed in Australia: The Lakes and Royal Qld. At least someone has recognised the greatness of the hole style.

And @ Peninsula - North #13

[Kyle Henderson]

The 5th again asks for directional accuracy over distance control, with flamboyant bilateral bunkers protecting the flanks of an elevated, deep and somewhat narrow green. The Sandbelt is chock full of these great little short holes.


A closer look.

[Mike_Clayton]

Kevin,

We didn't really do one at Royal Queensland - but 13 at Peninsula and 13 at The Lakes are both based on 4 at Woodlands.
Both are controversial -- especially the one at The Lakes.
Many think the green and the penalty for missing are too severe - yet they are not as difficult as the Woodlands hole.
Any shot to 13 at Peninsula North is demanding of competence - but at just over 300 yards that is hardly too much to ask. 4 at Woodlands is exactly the same.

[Justin Ryan]

the incredible “template waiting to happen” 4th green

I don't understand why the 13th isn't also used as a template.  A dead flat hole made very interesting simply by the angle of the green and bunkering, I don't understand why designers all over Australia haven't copied it. You could build it anywhere.

The course also lacks an inimitable character sufficient to distinguish itself from the neighboring clubs

It has smaller generally pushed up greens than its peers which generally have some type of subtle bump or roll to make you think about how you get to the hole. That is if you aren't dead in a bunker left! As Mark pointed out, it has a bush setting that is fairly unique on the sandbelt, and I always found much more attractive than all the pines at some other courses.

We didn't really do one at Royal Queensland

I thought 4 (now 13?) was an oversized variant.

[Kyle Henderson]

The course also lacks an inimitable character sufficient to distinguish itself from the neighboring clubs

It has smaller generally pushed up greens than its peers which generally have some type of subtle bump or roll to make you think about how you get to the hole. That is if you aren't dead in a bunker left! As Mark pointed out, it has a bush setting that is fairly unique on the sandbelt, and I always found much more attractive than all the pines at some other courses.

I thought Peninsula had some lovely native foliage. Even the artificial plantings at places like Victoria are done well enough to lend a similar atmosphere. Victoria, Kingston, Metropolitan and Commonwealth all feature a number of pushed up greens, some of which are quite small.

I agree Woodlands is a different course, but those differences are subtle and imitable, hence my initial comments.

[Kyle Henderson]

Tracing the northern boundary of the golf course, the 5th hole offers another birdie chance for strong players.


Thick woods on both sides, combined with the starboard cant of the terrain and a very wet summer, place critical importance on the value of an accurate drive.


Short hitters must contend with a small finger of intruding native grasses that narrow the fairway for the second shot.


Near the green, an impressive set of bunkers dominates the left side.


The ground falls away past the back edge of the elongated green.

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin,

We didn't really do one at Royal Queensland - but 13 at Peninsula and 13 at The Lakes are both based on 4 at Woodlands.
Both are controversial -- especially the one at The Lakes.
Many think the green and the penalty for missing are too severe - yet they are not as difficult as the Woodlands hole.
Any shot to 13 at Peninsula North is demanding of competence - but at just over 300 yards that is hardly too much to ask. 4 at Woodlands is exactly the same.

Mike

Like Justin - I thought the 4th (now 13th) at RQ was simillar in principle around the green (albeit a much longer hole) ? Agree - not replicas per se but similar themes.

The disadvantage of The Lakes if you miss the green right or left is that you are playing off kikuyu - whereas at Woodlands the couch gives more comfort in the playability options IMO. That said the firm nature of the course really tests the nerves and short game skills.

Interestingly - I looked up the current stroke indexes The Lakes is at 11 and at Woodlands the similar styled hole is rated 18.

[Mike_Clayton]

Kevin

13 at RQ only has a steep bank on one side - whereas the other 2 have steep banks left and right.
Arguably it is an advantage to play the side on chips off kikuyu because it is easier to get the club under the ball.
Off the couch so much of it is now done with the putter.
It was a quite different shot in the winter when the fairways and the banks were all poa.

[Kyle Henderson]

At the 7th tee, yet another “shortish” par 4 is on tap. The hole becomes easily drivable when a temporary green is shaved into the fairway 50 yards short of the regular surface (grumble).


A tee shot that draws around the dogleg can run very near to the green, but over-shaped shots will threaten players on the 6th hole. To lessen this danger, saplings have been planted recently to fill gaps in the separating tree line (at left).


Beyond the temporary green, the regular surface can be accessed through a breach in the greenside bunkers on the right. Prudent golfers will lay back to the dogleg and play over the sand traps with wedge shots.


The view from behind the regular green, with a collecting swale at the rear gathering thinned and over-clubbed shots on the proper line of approach.

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