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John Blain

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Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« on: July 12, 2011, 08:13:47 AM »
I had always assumed that Bandon's courses were links courses but I have read in a couple of different places lately that is not really the case. So my question is: Do any of the four courses at Bandon qualify as links courses and if not, why?

Thanks.
-John

Steve Kline

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 08:24:52 AM »
My understanding is that they do not technically qualify. But, who the heck cares? They are great courses that play firm and fast with lots of wind, making the ground game very important.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 08:29:23 AM »
John

Are they the same people that say Sand Hills isn't a "links" course ?

Joe Grasty

Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 08:33:26 AM »
According to the book "True Links", Bandon Dunes, Old Macdonald and Pacific Dunes are all links courses.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 11:12:21 AM »
JP:

Some people insist that linksland has to be closer to sea level than it is at Bandon, where the courses are 100-175 feet above sea level.  However, the real expert on the subject, the Scottish geologist Robert Price, had this to say in his book:

"Since the source of the sand is the adjoining beach and the mode of transport is on-shore winds, the distance the sand extends inland is not great.  It tends to accumulate in dune ridges which are usually 10 to 30 feet high, and, on average, blown sand rarely occurs higher than 75 feet above present sea level.  There are limited cases, however, where blown sand occurs between 200 and 300 feet above sea level."

I think that would qualify the courses at Bandon as true links, or at least, as much as the courses at Gullane or Pennard are considered links -- and most people in the UK call those courses links, until you start using them to justify the membership of an American course in the same club.  Price himself says of Gullane that "the hill has a covering of blown sand up to about 120 feet above sea level and large parts of the three courses have been laid out on the links land."

There is also a definition of linksland used by some people that the land was shaped by the receding seas, but I believe this is an inaccurate description.  If it WAS accurate, then Ballyneal and Sand Hills would claim to be true links, because there was a great inland sea in that part of the U.S. eons ago, which resulted in the sand deposit there today.


Sven Nilsen

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 11:28:45 AM »
Tom:

Under that definition, would Trails be considered a links course as well?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

JNC Lyon

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 11:51:21 AM »
So Price says that on-shore winds, rather than receding seas, are the creators of links courses?  To me, that seems tough to believe, considering that there is often a clear definition between links land and farmland on the UK links.  I'm thinking of places like Sandwich or Deal, where it is very easy to tell the difference between sandy linksland and fertile farmland.  Furthermore, old maps of Britain show that Sandwich sits on land that was either very close to the water or completely under water some 400 years ago.

Is Ballyneal a links course?  Hard to argue that it is, since it is so far above sea level and sits in a much more arid climate than the links of England, Scotland, or Bandon, Oregon.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Adam Clayman

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2011, 12:20:55 PM »
So Price says that on-shore winds, rather than receding seas, are the creators of links courses?  To me, that seems tough to believe, considering that there is often a clear definition between links land and farmland on the UK links.  I'm thinking of places like Sandwich or Deal, where it is very easy to tell the difference between sandy linksland and fertile farmland.  Furthermore, old maps of Britain show that Sandwich sits on land that was either very close to the water or completely under water some 400 years ago.

Is Ballyneal a links course?  Hard to argue that it is, since it is so far above sea level and sits in a much more arid climate than the links of England, Scotland, or Bandon, Oregon.

JNc, I would argue BN is a links course. But, it has very little to do with the definition the "experts" label links.

It has everything to do with the sport and how it's played, and how the architecture allows for core aspects that are not necessarily found on parkland. (I can't speak to heathland)

It does seem rather silly to limit the definition of a golf course, to evolutionary aspects that have nothing to do with golf. And when I say silly... I mean self serving, narrow mindedness that reflects some form of bigotry.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JNC Lyon

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 12:33:31 PM »
Adam,

In many cases, the evolutionary aspects of a golf course have much to do with how it plays.  Ballyneal, in many respects, plays like a links course due to sandy soil, choppy undulations, and fescue turf.  However, its high elevation and inland location takes it out of commission for several months of the year.  This is different from classic links courses, which are playable all year round in all weather conditions.

Just because Ballyneal isn't a links course does not mean it is somehow inferior.  I liked Ballyneal more than any links course I played in England or Scotland.  Ballyneal seems to fit a new genre of course, the "sand hills" course or the "prairie" course, which, until recently, did not really exist.  Overall, Ballyneal is not a links course, but that is not a bad thing.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Adam Clayman

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 12:44:03 PM »
John, In the case of Ballyneal, it has everything to do with the melting of the dunes, to create the golf-able corridors. Year round golf can be had, too. Did you find the shots available to you at Ballyneal, different from the shots available to you when in the UK? They are different from the shots available to me on Parkland courses, no doubt. Maybe a new category, "dunesland"?

But I take your point, I just don't agree with limiting definitions. or the snobbery that comes with the distinction. Heck, reading the dictionary and seeing words that were not acceptable words years ago, makes me think those that want to hold onto a rather finite definition of "links", are doing so for reasons that are not strictly cricket.

If one believes that links golf is the preferred, not including Ballyneal into that preference, is absurd. As proven by your love for it. Or do you see it as a different form?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2011, 01:01:10 PM »
So Price says that on-shore winds, rather than receding seas, are the creators of links courses?  To me, that seems tough to believe, considering that there is often a clear definition between links land and farmland on the UK links.  I'm thinking of places like Sandwich or Deal, where it is very easy to tell the difference between sandy linksland and fertile farmland.  Furthermore, old maps of Britain show that Sandwich sits on land that was either very close to the water or completely under water some 400 years ago.

Is Ballyneal a links course?  Hard to argue that it is, since it is so far above sea level and sits in a much more arid climate than the links of England, Scotland, or Bandon, Oregon.

JNC

When the sea recedes it doesn't leave dunes.  So yes, the dunes are formed by wind.  

Adam

No reason to get uptight about a definition.  Links is links and Ballyneal cannot be that.  So what?  As John notes, other than no sea present, links are playable all year with rare interuptions.  One couldn't count on that in Nebraska or Colorado, could they?  To me this is more than a minor quibble and it has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with definitions.  If I wanted to get all crazy my pure definition would be links also have to feature bents and fescues which naturally occur on site.  None of this means links are superior, only that they are a rarely occuring type of course.  But hey, the courses in the Sandhills are even more rare.  


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« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 01:26:52 PM by Sean Arble »
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Brad Isaacs

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2011, 01:01:48 PM »
I would argue thatBallyneal is links land in the true or literal definition of the word.  I believe that the geography and geology supports this as an ancient sea. The "Chop Hills" are the linkland that are left from that ancient sea. The sea has oops disappeared to underground. The Ogalala aquifer is where it went.  It is truly a huge sea.

Matt MacIver

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2011, 01:15:32 PM »
Perhaps there should be Links and links. 

I know of one (erroneous?) definition that golf was invented on land "linking" fertile crop-growing grounds to the sea.  So could any sandcap courses that are now unfit to grow crops, which play firm and fast and are heavily impacted by wind, be called links?  Or Links? 

Niall C

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2011, 01:28:41 PM »
Tom D,

Sorry to quibble but if my memory serves me right, Robert Price is actually Welsh which probably makes him a "faux" Scotsman. That said, I agree totally that he is indeed the go to expert when it comes to defining links golf courses.

Niall

BCrosby

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2011, 01:57:03 PM »
Ballyneal and SH were built on dunes formed by wind-blown sand left by a receding sea.

The only difference between them and TOC or NB is that the receding sea that left the sand dunes on which they are built receded eons before the sea bordering St Andrews did.

I've always thought that links courses needed a certain geological history to earn the designation, but that proximity to a current coastline was not a requirement. 

Bob

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2011, 03:09:05 PM »
As with most strict definitions, one can almost always find a case where it breaks down.

Take Royal Dublin for example. It's on a long strip on links land, yet it does not touch the mainland. It was formed by the changes in the tidal currents after the North Bull Wall was completed in 1825. Judging from the height of the dunes, I would say that the wind has had a minimal influence.

Bartra Island in County Mayo, is as the name suggests an island; it is true links land, but it's an island. Does it qualify as linksland? This is the island where Faldo wanted to build a course a few years ago.

JNC,

You will see many links courses that sit side by side with farmland. The farm land probably has been improved over hundreds of years by application of sea weed, cow dung mixed with straw, lime, etc. Dunfanaghy in Donegal is one example. The more inland holes at Portsalon have a lesser links character than those running along the sea.

The wind must have had huge influence on many links courses. In what other way could the sand hills at Ballybunion and the Island have gotten so high?

In Rosapenna, well before there ever was a golf course, over 1500 acres of land was covered by sand being blown in from the Tramore beach. A small village was buried and Lord Boyne's house had to be abandonded. It was only when they stabilized the valley area with bushes and marram grass, that the problem was resolved.

I'd say it's usually a bit of both, wind and tidal movements.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2011, 05:02:26 PM »
Tom D,

Sorry to quibble but if my memory serves me right, Robert Price is actually Welsh which probably makes him a "faux" Scotsman. That said, I agree totally that he is indeed the go to expert when it comes to defining links golf courses.

Niall

Niall:

New game:  Scot or Not?

I'm happy to take your word for it, but I guess I have to.  I just looked at his biography in the front of "Scotland's Golf Courses" and it actually doesn't say where he is from.  It mentions the University of Glasgow prominently, but perhaps they were just pandering to the audience.


Joe Bentham

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Re: Are Any of Bandon's Four Considered Links Courses?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2011, 05:04:29 PM »
There is a theory that the land Bandon Dunes golf resort was built on was at one time sea level.  The cliffs are rising incrementally ever year so it stands to reason that at some point in antiquity they where sea level.
There is also a theory that the Coquille river's mouth was once further north then it's current location, maybe as far north as cut creek which is the southern boundary of Bandon Dunes.
If one or either of these are correct then Bandon Dunes fits even the most stringent definition of linksland.  And even if they aren't and it isn't what does it matter?

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